Is this Sabal Brazoria or other???

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

This was purchased as a sabal Brazoria but to my understanding, the seed stalks remain within the fronds length. Last couple of years they did remain below but this year they are rocketing past the tallest fronds. Is this a Brazoria? Louisiana? Are there exceptions to the rule of the seed stalks? Thoughts? Thanks.

 

[Chester B]

You are correct about them having the stalks within the fronds.  Could be another species.

[Fusca]

Looks a lot like my Sabal Louisiana.  The one new inflorescence was actually 5" longer than the current tallest one but high winds bent it back.  Blue color didn't show up in the pic.

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

Looks a lot like my Sabal Louisiana.  The one new inflorescence was actually 5" longer than the current tallest one but high winds bent it back.  Blue color didn't show up in the pic.

Has yours been a fast grower? Thanks.

[Fusca]

18 hours ago, Zone7Bpalmguy said:

Has yours been a fast grower? Thanks.

Not particularly fast but probably faster than some of my other Sabal seedlings.  This guy was planted from a 3-gal in 2020 or 2021.

[Steve in Florida]

Zone7Bpalmguy the seed stalks for Brazoria extend beyond the canopy.  I have been growing them for twenty years and have trees that are offspring from a strap leafed seedling collected in Brazoria County decades ago.  

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

2 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

Zone7Bpalmguy the seed stalks for Brazoria extend beyond the canopy.  I have been growing them for twenty years and have trees that are offspring from a strap leafed seedling collected in Brazoria County decades ago.  

That would be great. I really don't want a sabal louisiana anyways, unless it trunks faster too. 

I wasn't sure if I was correct or not but just thought I had read some defining characteristic about the seed stalk. Thanks for chiming in. I'd love to see a pic of yours sometime if you don't mind. Have a great day.

[Steve in Florida]

A pic from three years ago.

[Allen]

The 'trunk' looks to be extending more upward than staying ground level

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

2 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

A pic from three years ago.

Thanks Steve! Mine really don't look much different (besides the size difference with mine being smaller) than that one, fronds are similar looking, etc... 

Do Sabal Brazoria have much of a costapalmate leaf like regular palmetto? So far mine really don't. Do the fronds ever fold/collapse like a sabal louisiana is notorious for? Mine does this some. Not sure if it's from strong winds, which could be possible, or I may still have a sabal louisiana.

[KPoff]

6 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

Zone7Bpalmguy the seed stalks for Brazoria extend beyond the canopy.  I have been growing them for twenty years and have trees that are offspring from a strap leafed seedling collected in Brazoria County decades ago.  

@Steve in Florida would you mind sharing pictures or your brazoria? I have two I planted last summer. I’ve only seen a few pictures of adult trees and I’m curious what yours look like.

[Steve in Florida]

12 hours ago, KPoff said:

@Steve in Florida would you mind sharing pictures or your brazoria? I have two I planted last summer. I’ve only seen a few pictures of adult trees and I’m curious what yours look like.

I didn't take any photos of mine in bloom but here are some from a botanical garden.

[Steve in Florida]

13 hours ago, Zone7Bpalmguy said:

Thanks Steve! Mine really don't look much different (besides the size difference with mine being smaller) than that one, fronds are similar looking, etc... 

Do Sabal Brazoria have much of a costapalmate leaf like regular palmetto? So far mine really don't. Do the fronds ever fold/collapse like a sabal louisiana is notorious for? Mine does this some. Not sure if it's from strong winds, which could be possible, or I may still have a sabal louisiana.

Mine are heavily costapalmate to the extent the leaflets from both sides will touch and make noise when it's windy.  They can sometimes have palmate leaves or have moderate to heavily costapalmate leaves.  Leaf collapse must be rare because I have never witnessed it on Brazoria, even after 80 mph hurricane winds.

Here is a native seedling in Brazoria County.

[Chester B]

Guys I hate to disagree, but everything that I have read says Sabal brazoriensis flowers stalks "Do Not Exceed" the frond length.

https://w3.biosci.utexas.edu/prc/Sabal/Brazoria.html

I do plan on driving over there to look at the palms in person, so I'll take photos and note the flower stalk lengths.

The palm in question to me looks like Louisiana.

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

Guys I hate to disagree, but everything that I have read says Sabal brazoriensis flowers stalks "Do Not Exceed" the frond length.

https://w3.biosci.utexas.edu/prc/Sabal/Brazoria.html

I do plan on driving over there to look at the palms in person, so I'll take photos and note the flower stalk lengths.

The palm in question to me looks like Louisiana.

You should see the flower stalks now, they are easily 10' tall which is about 4-5' above the tallest fronds. Could it be possible that all this rain I keep getting is causing absurd growth? This is the first year that seed stalks shot above the fronds. 

 

Thanks Chester, I appreciate your input and digging deeper into this mystery for me.  Looking forward to your pics. 👍 

[Chester B]

46 minutes ago, Zone7Bpalmguy said:

You should see the flower stalks now, they are easily 10' tall which is about 4-5' above the tallest fronds. Could it be possible that all this rain I keep getting is causing absurd growth? This is the first year that seed stalks shot above the fronds. 

 

Thanks Chester, I appreciate your input and digging deeper into this mystery for me.  Looking forward to your pics. 👍 

I still stand by Louisiana or a giant variety of minor like the ones that are native to my neighborhood.  That frond at the back that is kind of broken at the petiole and is drooping, is what you typically see on Louisiana as well as the huge flower stalks..

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

3 hours ago, Chester B said:

I still stand by Louisiana or a giant variety of minor like the ones that are native to my neighborhood.  That frond at the back that is kind of broken at the petiole and is drooping, is what you typically see on Louisiana as well as the huge flower stalks..

"broken at the petiole"--exactly. I'm agreeing with the signs that it's a Louisiana and not a Brazoria. It seems to be a fast trunker too, so that probably rules a regular minor out.

Ah, oh well. It's still a nice looking palm. 

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

Look at the size of this bloom stalk! The tip of the tallest fronds is about 6'. The bloom stalk may be pushing 11-12' tall!

[Steve in Florida]

That's a common Sabal minor or Sabal Louisiana trait.   If Brazoria it should have stopped extending and started branching.

[Steve in Florida]

9 hours ago, Chester B said:

Guys I hate to disagree, but everything that I have read says Sabal brazoriensis flowers stalks "Do Not Exceed" the frond length.

https://w3.biosci.utexas.edu/prc/Sabal/Brazoria.html

I do plan on driving over there to look at the palms in person, so I'll take photos and note the flower stalk lengths.

The palm in question to me looks like Louisiana.

A published article by Phytotaxa on the Brazoria palmetto using DNA analysis titled 'A preliminary evaluation of the ancestry of a putative Sabal hybrid (Arecaceae: Coryphoideae), and the description of a new nothospecies, Sabal × brazoriensis' states " Inflorescences (1–)2–3 m, generally of similar length to the leaves or slightly longer, with 2–3 orders of branching..."

[Chester B]

20 minutes ago, Steve in Florida said:

A published article by Phytotaxa on the Brazoria palmetto using DNA analysis titled 'A preliminary evaluation of the ancestry of a putative Sabal hybrid (Arecaceae: Coryphoideae), and the description of a new nothospecies, Sabal × brazoriensis' states " Inflorescences (1–)2–3 m, generally of similar length to the leaves or slightly longer, with 2–3 orders of branching..."

I know that you can identify the palm by the manner of the arrangement of the flowers.  Once this one is flowering a close up photo should help with an ID along with seed size.  
 

Sabals can be difficult to ID and often get sold as X species when they are actually Y. I guess we’ll have to wait and find out on this one.  

[Steve in Florida]

People often sell seeds from mixed palm gardens where multiple Sabal are flowering at the same time.  Twenty years ago Europalms in Belgium was selling Brazoria seeds that had been accidentally pollinated by Sabal minor.  I believe the palms had to be growing right beside each other.  I got a nice e-mail from a lady nursery owner in Switzerland alerting me.   

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

@Chester B and others, here is the seed of this palm from last fall. Does this help to identify it? Thanks.

 

[NMPalmjunky]

On 5/27/2025 at 6:20 PM, Steve in Florida said:

That's a common Sabal minor or Sabal Louisiana trait.   If Brazoria it should have stopped extending and started branching.

@Steve in FloridaDo you think this could be Brazoria?

[Steve in Florida]

It looks like a Sabal Louisiana inflorescence.

[Allen]

On 6/6/2025 at 7:23 PM, NMPalmjunky said:

@Steve in FloridaDo you think this could be Brazoria?

Minor and the op one too I think 

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

17 minutes ago, Allen said:

Minor and the op one too I think 

Maybe so but if it is a minor, it went from a trunkless smaller specimen to a trunked one in 4 years for me. Not disagreeing but I haven't seen any other minors do that in my years of growing them.  It was 7 gallon when I purchased it.  Either way it is growing on me.  The fronds are huge!

[Allen]

1 hour ago, Zone7Bpalmguy said:

Maybe so but if it is a minor, it went from a trunkless smaller specimen to a trunked one in 4 years for me. Not disagreeing but I haven't seen any other minors do that in my years of growing them.  It was 7 gallon when I purchased it.  Either way it is growing on me.  The fronds are huge!

If you can post another picture of the current inflorescence it will help but I am sticking with minor because of the inflorescence.  The fruit size also fits minor 

[NMPalmjunky]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

If you can post another picture of the current inflorescence it will help but I am sticking with minor because of the inflorescence.  The fruit size also fits minor 

@Allen Thank you for your help. I bought this as a Sabal Minor, but looks larger than many Minors that I see. The fronds keep getting bigger and bigger and the seeds are a bit larger as well. I agree that @Zone7Bpalmguy may have a different palm than me because he seems to have the start of a real trunk where mine keeps lifting the weed barrier. Here is a picture from December as well as a closeup of the fruit.

[Allen]

Thanks yes it is a minor.  I was wanting a pic from the op but I may have miscommunicated

[Allen]

15 hours ago, Zone7Bpalmguy said:

Maybe so but if it is a minor, it went from a trunkless smaller specimen to a trunked one in 4 years for me. Not disagreeing but I haven't seen any other minors do that in my years of growing them.  It was 7 gallon when I purchased it.  Either way it is growing on me.  The fronds are huge!

 

11 hours ago, NMPalmjunky said:

@Allen Thank you for your help. I bought this as a Sabal Minor, but looks larger than many Minors that I see. The fronds keep getting bigger and bigger and the seeds are a bit larger as well. I agree that @Zone7Bpalmguy may have a different palm than me because he seems to have the start of a real trunk where mine keeps lifting the weed barrier. Here is a picture from December as well as a closeup of the fruit.

 

 

Only for you guys!!

 

 

[SeanK]

14 hours ago, NMPalmjunky said:

@Allen Thank you for your help. I bought this as a Sabal Minor, but looks larger than many Minors that I see. The fronds keep getting bigger and bigger and the seeds are a bit larger as well. I agree that @Zone7Bpalmguy may have a different palm than me because he seems to have the start of a real trunk where mine keeps lifting the weed barrier. Here is a picture from December as well as a closeup of the fruit.

I have a few like this. Five feet to top of fronds, 12-ft to top of infructescence.

[JeskiM]

The Brazoria, that is often referred to in this forum from Barton Springs nursery in Austin TX, has inflotescence that are the length of the leaves to just barely beyond that.

The best picture I have of that specific palm with its bloom stalk is this one. You can barely see the bloom stalk just to the right of center of the big leave. It's exactly as long as the leaf and has a few sets of branches.

I think all those palms pictured in this thead with the very long bloom stalks are most definitely not Brazoriensis.

-Matt

[Atlanta Area Palm Guy]

On 5/25/2025 at 4:00 AM, Steve in Florida said:

Zone7Bpalmguy the seed stalks for Brazoria extend beyond the canopy.  I have been growing them for twenty years and have trees that are offspring from a strap leafed seedling collected in Brazoria County decades ago.  

I'd be figuring it's a Sabal Brazoria unless he has some kind of conclusive proof.  The nurseries are very accurate with this stuff.

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

@Allen Here's a pic of the tallest inflorescence:

 

[Allen]

2 hours ago, Zone7Bpalmguy said:

@Allen Here's a pic of the tallest inflorescence:

 

minor 100%

[MattInRaleigh]

On 6/15/2025 at 7:19 PM, Zone7Bpalmguy said:

@Allen Here's a pic of the tallest inflorescence:

 

I'm no expert, but Sabal Brazoriensis is morphologically variable from what I've read of people growing them. This is likely due to it being a hybrid. I've seen some examples where the inflorescence is a couple feet taller than the tallest fronds such as on Plant Delights Nursery (see the pictures on the website):
https://www.plantdelights.com/products/sabal-brazoriensis

I've seen some grown from Gary's Nursery in New Bern, NC (different original source than Plant Delights Nursery) where the inflorescence is also a bit taller than the fronds.

I think Sabal Minor inflorescence tends to be more "open" and have more branching than your picture, but it's pretty hard to tell on these things. I can check the JC Raulston Arboretum in Raleigh, NC to see what the inflorescence is like on their specimens.

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

@MattInRaleigh That last picture on the Plant Delights website looks like the inflorescence is a decent bit above the fronds. That would be great to check JC Raulston, much appreciated! So there's still hope I may have a brazoriensis, lol.

[MattInRaleigh]

3 hours ago, Zone7Bpalmguy said:

@MattInRaleigh That last picture on the Plant Delights website looks like the inflorescence is a decent bit above the fronds. That would be great to check JC Raulston, much appreciated! So there's still hope I may have a brazoriensis, lol.

I'm not sure when is the next time I'll be there, but they do have a few pictures online. Here is one with an inflorescence that is much taller than the fronds, so who knows?
https://jcra.ncsu.edu/resources/photographs/plants-results.php?serial=1173

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

11 hours ago, MattInRaleigh said:

I'm not sure when is the next time I'll be there, but they do have a few pictures online. Here is one with an inflorescence that is much taller than the fronds, so who knows?
https://jcra.ncsu.edu/resources/photographs/plants-results.php?serial=1173

Yeah that's the one I was referring to. No problem. Barring extreme cold to kill it, my palm isn't going anywhere regardless of what it is. I'll look forward to your findings when you get the opportunity.