Indoor Roebelenii Problems

[OriolesRock100]

Hey, I am having some issues with my phoneix roebeleniis that are indoors in pots for the winter, and I can't seem to figure out what exactly the problem is... I'm aware that they enjoy high heat and humidity ideally, but I have seen many accounts that they are usually good potted palms that tolerate overwintering indoors no problem. I have a large triple-planted roebelenii that I bought from home depot for $20 which is struggling - the middle of the three trunks has spear pulled (I applied copper fungicide twice), and all the fronds have turned pale and "crispy" (don't know how else to describe). They're still green, but they have closed up and feel very stiff compared to how they were in the summer. I also have a few seedlings that are having similar issues despite them not being related at all. Curiously, I have an adonidia merrillii in the SAME EXACT conditions that is absolutely thriving and putting out new growth every single day despite being inside in 70 degree, dry (relative to outside) conditions. I have heard that adonidias are terrible houseplants that usually require tons of work to keep alive during the winter, but I am having no such experience with that and lots of problems with my roebeleniis that are apparently supposed to tolerate these conditions well. Curious if anyone has any clue what the problem is. I'll attach some pictures of both the big and seedling roebeleniis as well as the adonidia which is thriving.

A little while ago I a bit of a spider mite problem on one of my many roebelenii seedlings, so I quarantined it and routinely checked every one of the roebeleniis as well as the adonidia and a citrus seedling I also had in the same spot (the big roebelenii which is also struggling with similar issues was in a different spot completely). I noticed a spider mite here or there on all the seedlings including the adonidia and a citrus which I am assuming came from the one roebelenii that was infected. Every single day I started manually inspecting and wiping down every single strap leaf, then spraying them with water to make sure the problem was contained. I am pretty sure that is not the cause since I have not seen a spider mite since the quarantine/first day I noticed. Adonidias are notorious for their spider mite problems and it is doing great with no issues to be found. Additionally, I cannot find any indications of spider mites on the big roebelenii that is located in a different spot.

All in all, I'm at a loss as to what the problem could be. It's looking like all the roebeleniis are going to be toast by spring at this rate. Has anyone had any similar issues?

[Fusca]

Yikes!  I hope you saved your receipt!  To me it looks like it's in shock.  I once bought a Phoenix roebelenii during winter that had 4 or 5 in the same pot.  Foolishly I tried to separate them into individual pots during winter and they looked just like yours after one or two days.  They like water and can dry out pretty quickly indoors with the heater running, but the medium needs to be well draining.  Spear-pull is a sign of internal rot.  You are correct though, they can be very good container plants - I had one in a pot for 17 years that overwintered indoors.

[OriolesRock100]

2 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Yikes!  I hope you saved your receipt!  To me it looks like it's in shock.  I once bought a Phoenix roebelenii during winter that had 4 or 5 in the same pot.  Foolishly I tried to separate them into individual pots during winter and they looked just like yours after one or two days.  They like water and can dry out pretty quickly indoors with the heater running, but the medium needs to be well draining.  Spear-pull is a sign of internal rot.  You are correct though, they can be very good container plants - I had one in a pot for 17 years that overwintered indoors.

They were all out the whole summer, is it possible they could be in shock simply from going from hot/humid east coast summer conditions to temperate dry indoors conditions? Here's a picture of when it was thriving during the summer (I really have no idea why it's insisting on being upside down sorry 😅)

 

[OriolesRock100]

^ Sorry forgot to add, if you think it is shock due to lack of water, do you think there's a chance of recovery if I increase waterings and spray them with water more to try to increase humidity, or are these definitely goners? They are in well-draining soil, but I did decrease waterings a bit after moving them inside.

[Fusca]

39 minutes ago, OriolesRock100 said:

They were all out the whole summer, is it possible they could be in shock simply from going from hot/humid east coast summer conditions to temperate dry indoors conditions? Here's a picture of when it was thriving during the summer (I really have no idea why it's insisting on being upside down sorry 😅

Yes that's probably the main reason going from outdoors to indoors.  How long has it been indoors?  My palm would often only stay inside only during the night when it was below freezing and then back outside again even if it was only in the 40's.  They'll get cold damaged with temperatures below 26° - especially with frost.  If it did OK all through the summer in that soil upping the water might help.  Even more so I would keep it in a spot where it's not having warm air being blown on it.  It might recover but if it does it'll take a while before it looks healthy again.

[OriolesRock100]

28 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Yes that's probably the main reason going from outdoors to indoors.  How long has it been indoors?  My palm would often only stay inside only during the night when it was below freezing and then back outside again even if it was only in the 40's.  They'll get cold damaged with temperatures below 26° - especially with frost.  If it did OK all through the summer in that soil upping the water might help.  Even more so I would keep it in a spot where it's not having warm air being blown on it.  It might recover but if it does it'll take a while before it looks healthy again.

I brought it inside in late October once temps started dipping below freezing. It saw a couple light frosts but definitely nothing below 30°F. It still looked perfectly happy at the time of it moving inside. It has been in steady decline since then though. I’ll try upping the waterings and see if it can make a recovery. I’ll stick with it and hopefully at least the big trunk can survive (medium one spear pulled twice I think that one is probably a goner but big trunk and smallest trunk spear seems good as of now). Right now the big and small trunks at least seem to be pseudo-alive where the spear has not rotted or anything but the fronds aren’t in good shape and it’s not growing. I guess I won’t know if it will recover until it goes back outside in spring. Unfortunately it is much too cold to go outside at all as of now (today low was 0° and high was 16°), hopefully we get a warm February so it can go outside a little bit here and there.

I just find it strange the Adonidia did just fine in the same exact situation as the Roebeleniis (both big and small ones so not just unlucky genetics) when Adonidias supposedly want the same heat and humidity the Pygmy Dates want and then some. Both went from outside all summer to inside in the late fall. Maybe they’re more tough as indoor-outdoor potted palms than people give them credit for. 

[PalmatierMeg]

Pygmy date palms hail from the tropics around the Mekong River in Vietnam. They are not dry weather or desert palms and should be cared like the tropical palms they are. Yours look pretty peak-ed and may be on the way out. What indoor temperature do you keep them at night and day? The warmer/hotter the better. What humidity do you keep them at?  >70% and closer to 100%. Do you keep them in very bright light? Grow lights? I see a house that is likely too cold, too dark and too dry. Your potting medium appears to be standard black houseplant soil. It should be a coarse, loose, free-draining potting mix. If you can't find it, make your own. I add reconstituted coco coir and perlite to coarse bagged garden soil. You could add pumice instead of perlite but almost no one on the East Coast is familiar with it - a Cali thing.

You have an advantage in that pygmy dates are common and relatively cheap to replace. No insult intended but I assume you know that pygmy dates are solitary palms forced to cluster and compete for growing space while weaker plants die off. If you decide to replace yours I strongly suggest you buy them as one solitary stem per pot. That may cost a bit more per palm but less risk 1/2-2/3 of them end up dead.

Good luck.

[OriolesRock100]

23 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Pygmy date palms hail from the tropics around the Mekong River in Vietnam. They are not dry weather or desert palms and should be cared like the tropical palms they are. Yours look pretty peak-ed and may be on the way out. What indoor temperature do you keep them at night and day? The warmer/hotter the better. What humidity do you keep them at?  >70% and closer to 100%. Do you keep them in very bright light? Grow lights? I see a house that is likely too cold, too dark and too dry. Your potting medium appears to be standard black houseplant soil. It should be a coarse, loose, free-draining potting mix. If you can't find it, make your own. I add reconstituted coco coir and perlite to coarse bagged garden soil. You could add pumice instead of perlite but almost no one on the East Coast is familiar with it - a Cali thing.

You have an advantage in that pygmy dates are common and relatively cheap to replace. No insult intended but I assume you know that pygmy dates are solitary palms forced to cluster and compete for growing space while weaker plants die off. If you decide to replace yours I strongly suggest you buy them as one solitary stem per pot. That may cost a bit more per palm but less risk 1/2-2/3 of them end up dead.

Good luck.

I'm aware of their native environment being very hot and humid, but I was under the impression that these palms (probably due to being in the Phoenix genus) can tolerant of dry conditions at least temporarily, so long as it doesn't get to cold. It's well documented that these can be grown in places like Phoenix, AZ and Southern California which are not humid at all. That's why I was not too concerned with the humidity inside here being a problem and why usually people say they are supposedly easy to overwinter inside.

To answer some of your questions/concerns: It definitely isn't usually cold in the house, 70-72 Fahrenheit 95%+ of the time. I concede I don't know the humidity inside, but the dew point can't possibly be lower than that of Phoenix or interior Southern California in the winter where these can be grown no problem. I had it under a grow light during the time it went into decline - it isn't under one now because I moved it to a different spot with more natural lighting just to try anything different. Just to reiterate, an Adonidia in the same exact conditions has been thriving which have the same needs and are usually documented as being more picky. The soil looks dark and not well-draining, but that's because I watered it right before I took the picture. It is planted in soil made for palms/citrus, and I had to water it CONSTANTLY during the summer. I don't think root rot could be an issue if that's what you were alluding to. I decreased waterings after moving inside but have re-upped it this past week or two hoping maybe it could help.

I agree that it doesn't look like it's going to make it unfortunately, and these palms are very cheap here in the summer, so it's not the end of the world. I just am a little confused as to what the problem could be is all - whether it's shock from the change in environment from 80s-90s with high humidity to lower humidity/70-72 degree room temperature or what. If I can't figure out what I did wrong with these Roebeleniis then I will probably just not keep them in the future so I don't waste time and money, but if I could figure out the issue I think they are very beautiful and really love our summers outside.

[PalmatierMeg]

70-72 F is not warm for a tropical palm. Is that in the daytime? If so, what is your night time temp? Again, what is your soil situation? Do you water on a schedule or according to the palm’s needs? I’m thinking something nasty is going on with the roots - overwatering? More plants die from overwatering than drought. Many people believe any plant issue can be cured by throwing water and fertilizer at a struggling plant.

[OriolesRock100]

56 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

70-72 F is not warm for a tropical palm. Is that in the daytime? If so, what is your night time temp? Again, what is your soil situation? Do you water on a schedule or according to the palm’s needs? I’m thinking something nasty is going on with the roots - overwatering? More plants die from overwatering than drought. Many people believe any plant issue can be cured by throwing water and fertilizer at a struggling plant.

Nighttime probably about 70F, it shouldn't really ever go below 70 since we usually have thermostat set between 70-72. The soil in the pot is just normal specialized palm/citrus soil you would buy from home depot or lowe's or wherever. I highly doubt it's overwatering, but I'm starting to really think I went too far with the underwatering. I didn't really have a system, I would let it dry out completely until the pot was light and even wait a bit after that before completely soaking it again. I wanna say I was watering about once every 2 weeks after moving it inside. When it was outside I was watering once a day when really really hot in July down to once a week as the temps cooled in late fall. Now I am watering about twice a week since I am paying heavy attention and it seems to be drying out pretty quick after watering. I haven't fertilized it since August or September I believe. Maybe once it warms up above freezing outside, I may take it out of the pot and see if I can take a look at the roots - not sure if it is worth stressing it out more or if I should just wait until spring. At least the smaller trunk is probably a goner either way but who knows...

[Than]

Something similar happened to my Euterpe this winter. It suddenly dried out. My explanation is that I overwatered during the summer (you said you had to water constantly in the summer. Perhaps the soil at the lower half of the pot was constantly wet?). That weakened my palm. When I brought it indoors (70F day and night, about 50% humidity) it declined rapidly. Probably humidity was too low. I think it is a goner. 

You said you don't know what your humidity is. I'd suggest buying a hygrometer; they are pretty cheap and necessary for anyone who grows plants indoors. Also, a soil tester that shows you when the soil is wet. Those are also very cheap - I bought mine for 15$. I am often surprised by the measurements. Even when a pot hasn't been watered for two weeks and I bet it is all dry, the soil tester shows me that in fact it is still moist. 

[PalmsInBaltimore]

my initial thoughts were underwatering, but it seems like if you're soaking the soil like that every two weeks it should be doing better. 

I have a potted four-trunked Roebelenii inside for the winter. The lower leaves have started to crisp up a bit, and some have gone completely brown, but the leaves from the 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock positions still seem fine and all the trunks have been putting out new growth. It gets a good drink every two weeks like yours. Soil is Organic Mechanics Succulent and Cactus Soil, which is very gravelly and coarse. 

In the height of summer it was getting lots of water from the hose, almost every day. I also brought mine inside in late October, earlier than I wanted but the forecast must've been showing temps in the low 30s. As you know we had sort of a chilly autumn in our region and even though the first frost wasn't until around Thanksgiving the nights were cold in the mid 30sF.

Anyway, it's in a 16" decorative ceramic pot and it's very very heavy. Had to ask a friend to come over and help me carry it up our back steps with moving straps onto a dolly where I wheeled it over to a south-facing window on the ground floor. I wanted this thing to be as light as possible before it had to be moved inside, so I actually stopped watering it almost completely a couple weeks before bringing it inside so the soil would be as light as possible in the pot.

It's possible that by cutting back watering drastically a few weeks before bringing it inside it acclimated a bit better to having really dry soil most of the time. Also it is in between a south-facing window and a three-foot-tall vertical grow light. I don't mist the leaves. 

8 hours ago, Than said:

buying a hygrometer; they are pretty cheap and necessary for anyone who grows plants indoors. Also, a soil tester that shows you when the soil is wet. Those are also very cheap - I bought mine for 15$. I am often surprised by the measurements. Even when a pot hasn't been watered for two weeks and I bet it is all dry, the soil tester shows me that in fact it is still moist. 

I agree, it's really surprising how wet the soil stays down where the roots are. 

I hope you can figure out what the issue might be. It sucks that we're still weeks away from consistently better weather, but there's a chance it will make it if the issue isn't root rot

16 hours ago, OriolesRock100 said:

The soil in the pot is just normal specialized palm/citrus soil you would buy from home depot or lowe's or wherever.

Do you know what the soil composition is? A lot of times these mixes at the big stores have peat in them, which is almost always a no-go for palms, even the water loving ones like Roebelenii

[Jdash]

have you checked for any pests? the baby betel palms i have indoors looked very similar to than's euterpe and i couldnt' figure out why for too long, ended up being these tiny thrips, leaf suckers, caused quick necrosis of their leaves. I hit them with some organicide, light application and they have started to bounce back. You can try pulling the pygmy's and checking out their roots, they should tell you quickly if they're receiving too much or too little water.  if root rot (which it really doesn't appear to be) then drenching it with fungicide and better draining soil will clear things up. imo seems like it's really missing the sun, some nutritional deficiency and possibly a pest issue, hit it with some sort of miticide to truely get rid of spider mites and their tiny offspring. wouldn't hurt getting a small hand held magnifying glass 

[OriolesRock100]

6 hours ago, PalmsInBaltimore said:

my initial thoughts were underwatering, but it seems like if you're soaking the soil like that every two weeks it should be doing better. 

I have a potted four-trunked Roebelenii inside for the winter. The lower leaves have started to crisp up a bit, and some have gone completely brown, but the leaves from the 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock positions still seem fine and all the trunks have been putting out new growth. It gets a good drink every two weeks like yours. Soil is Organic Mechanics Succulent and Cactus Soil, which is very gravelly and coarse. 

In the height of summer it was getting lots of water from the hose, almost every day. I also brought mine inside in late October, earlier than I wanted but the forecast must've been showing temps in the low 30s. As you know we had sort of a chilly autumn in our region and even though the first frost wasn't until around Thanksgiving the nights were cold in the mid 30sF.

Anyway, it's in a 16" decorative ceramic pot and it's very very heavy. Had to ask a friend to come over and help me carry it up our back steps with moving straps onto a dolly where I wheeled it over to a south-facing window on the ground floor. I wanted this thing to be as light as possible before it had to be moved inside, so I actually stopped watering it almost completely a couple weeks before bringing it inside so the soil would be as light as possible in the pot.

It's possible that by cutting back watering drastically a few weeks before bringing it inside it acclimated a bit better to having really dry soil most of the time. Also it is in between a south-facing window and a three-foot-tall vertical grow light. I don't mist the leaves. 

I agree, it's really surprising how wet the soil stays down where the roots are. 

I hope you can figure out what the issue might be. It sucks that we're still weeks away from consistently better weather, but there's a chance it will make it if the issue isn't root rot

Do you know what the soil composition is? A lot of times these mixes at the big stores have peat in them, which is almost always a no-go for palms, even the water loving ones like Roebelenii

I think once the snow melts and it gets above freezing I will try to take it out and inspect the roots just to see if it is somehow root rot. Hopefully it won't stress it out even more, but something has to be done at this point to figure out the problem.

I checked the soil bag, and it says it "contains a mixture of forest products, sphagnum peat moss, sand, and perlite." I haven't had any issues with this mix for any of my other palms, so I assume it should be okay. If there is root rot, I would guess it's because of my watering, not the soil medium. It's pretty well-draining from what I can tell.

[OriolesRock100]

1 hour ago, Jdash said:

have you checked for any pests? the baby betel palms i have indoors looked very similar to than's euterpe and i couldnt' figure out why for too long, ended up being these tiny thrips, leaf suckers, caused quick necrosis of their leaves. I hit them with some organicide, light application and they have started to bounce back. You can try pulling the pygmy's and checking out their roots, they should tell you quickly if they're receiving too much or too little water.  if root rot (which it really doesn't appear to be) then drenching it with fungicide and better draining soil will clear things up. imo seems like it's really missing the sun, some nutritional deficiency and possibly a pest issue, hit it with some sort of miticide to truely get rid of spider mites and their tiny offspring. wouldn't hurt getting a small hand held magnifying glass 

I saw some spider mites on a different roebelenii seedling as I said in the first post, but I don't believe they've spread to this palm, I've inspected it pretty thoroughly. I'll continue to monitor for pests, but I can't find any signs of them as of now. I'll look into buying a magnifying glass to look closer, thanks for the tip.

[Jdash]

the white color is so odd, the only thing i see online remotely close is a severe spider mite issue. i would think if your others had spider mites, they could easily crawl on you and crawl off to that palm. it's so hard to see little spider mites crawling under all that fiber, let us know if you find anything, good luck to you and the pygmy. if you can take a up close picture of a leaf, perhaps we can see what the damage looks like