Difficult Palm Seeds

[Gileno Machado]

For me the most difficult palm seeds are:

Dypsis bejofo (never sprouted, 2 attempts)

Dypsis tsaravoisira (one out of 20)

Dypsis lastelliana (never had a sprout in 3 attempts)

Voanioala gerardii

Oncosperma tigillarium (2 out of 50)

Attalea oleifera (after 2 years none has sprouted yet)

Butia capitata (zero, third batch)

Orania ravaka

Astrocaryum murumuru (Oh Lord...)

Most Bactris

Howea forsteriana (sporadic and low germination rate)

Manicaria saccifera (2 out of 30)

Phytelephas macrocarpa (tough seeds, unlike Aphandra natalia)

What other species are difficult for you?

[MattyB]

I don't seem to have luck w/ any of the rarer Trachycarpus.  I'm zero for about a hundred.  I think it might be because by the time they come from China or wherever they're from they're too old.  I don't know.

[merrill]

Hello, Gileno:

My apologies if I'm repeating myself, but how about Attalea dubia?  Hope all is well there!

[Nigel]

Brahea decumbens is my impossible seed, Trithrinax campestris is probably second, although that one does germinate around 3 years later in the rubbish pile.

Gileno, when I was in Santa caterina I had to show them how to germinate locally collected Butia seeds ,they had hundreds of thousands and none were germinating. If the seed is too wet it will never germinate , they seem to germinate when in a state halfway between being wet and drying out.

[Gaston in Argentina]

Let`s add:

Acrocomia (any), Syagrus macrocarpa, some Attaleas, dubia as the record of the most difficult of this genous.-

Nigel, here we use "turba fueguina" (from Tierra del Fuego island) i think is the same then its called "cannadian moss" in the US, i undestand its a semifossil of thousand years in the freezee soil of some spagnum moss.-

Its MAGIC for any seeds (the difficults Butias incluided) using with the same moisture how it come packaged.

[mike in kurtistown]

Gileno,

My experiences are similar to yours where we have worked on species in common. I cheated though on two:

got pre-germinated seeds of Voanioala from Ortanique, they did well. Got already germinated seeds of Astrocaryum murumuru from habitat, most are growing well. A Bactris major seed popped after a year and a half. And two out of five Bactris acanthocarpoides seeds collected as fresh fruit in habitat popped after 11 months.

I think I've mentioned my problems with Amazonian Geonoma seeds. The only moderately good results have been with G. stricta. It's probably not hot enough here, and maybe I should have provided more heat.

Also add Euterpe precatoria to my frustrations. Maybe a freshness problem.

Mike

[MattyB]

Oh, add Geonoma gamiova to my frustrations too.  Got a few to germinate but as soon as you take them out of the germination box or tupperware container they wizzle off.

[Tyrone]

(MattyB @ Nov. 30 2007,17:20)

QUOTE

Oh, add Geonoma gamiova to my frustrations too.  Got a few to germinate but as soon as you take them out of the germination box or tupperware container they wizzle off.

Nooooo..... I just got some in from RPS.  

For me Acanthophoenix, Basselinia gracilis, Dypsis bejofo very difficult. Burretiokentia seem real diificult at times too.

regards

Tyrone

[JEFF from Trabuco Canyon CA]

Lepidorrhachis mooreana and small seed Dypsis

[Gileno Machado]

(merrill @ Nov. 30 2007,13:24)

QUOTE

Hello, Gileno:

My apologies if I'm repeating myself, but how about Attalea dubia?  Hope all is well there!

Hi Merrill:

I haven't tried germinating Attalea dubia here yet. This is actually a species from coastal south and southest Brazil, starting the native habitat some 1,500 miles south from my location. In coastal places up here it is replaced by the local species Attalea oleifera and others, still considered as Orbgnyas here. From all the Attalea species native to Brazil, I guess the most cold hardy ones are A. dubia and the rather rare dwarf Attalea exigua from central southeast regions, this one from the tableland of Minas Gerais and Goiás States, growing in certain cerrado areas. I'd love to get seeds of both too.

Nigel, thanks for the clue on Butia.  I've actually used the moist conditions you mention, with no results so far. It's disappointing when we actually eat the fresh fruit, clean the seeds, use different germination media and don't see anything moving, after years...

Gaston: I guess I need to try some of this "turba fueguina". Do they sell this stuff in bags? Export up here tax free and cheap for Mercosul? My brother went on a ship cruise to Ushuaia and found incredible beautiful scenary in Tierra del Fuego, by the way.

Mike:

I guess I cannot legally buy sprouted Voanioala seeds from USA because they are considered a threatned species or something, the same with most rare Cycads, mainly Encephalartos. I believe these species are listed in CITES. It is a strange law in my opinion, since these seeds can be sold in US for local cultivation and they are mostly native to Africa, although it seems that they're not even allowed to be reintroduced in their own native habitat, since the existing seeds available in the United States are not supposed to be sold elsewhere, outside of the Country. Can you imagine if Madagascar, Peru, Brazil and New Guinea adopt a similar legislation? Well, at least I hope they can grow fine for you and multiply a lot for the future, saving the species through cultivation, like most Ravenea and rare Dypsis are performing so well. Anyway, back to difficult seeds, I guess germinating fresh Geonoma seeds is very easy, especially comparing to lazy amazonic Bactris and also some Astrocaryum. The problem with Geonoma is actually transplanting them at young age. These are always highly sensitive and fragile seedlings, quite demanding young plants, like Welfia regia, Iguanura, some Burretiokentias and Brassiophoenix.

Other complicated and often frustrating seeds, according to my records...some of these may have a short viabily period or maybe they don't travel overseas so well:

Jubaeopsis caffra

Wettinia augusta

Acanthophoenix

Rhapis subtilis

many Licuala spp especially orbicularis

Asterogyne martiana.

PS: Mike, the species is not so common here on the coast but I recall fresh Euterpe precatoria seeds to be bulletproof here...almost 100% germination rates. When I get some of these from my friends I'll send them your way if you want...

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Lodoicea...  It's the most frustrating...  I can't find any

[bgl]

But Bill, once you find them, germination is easy! I had 100% on mine - what more can one ask for...?

[Palm Guy]

For me Bentinckia Nicobarica...to be honest...havent tried with added heat...4 out of 20 seeds or so....

Psuedophoenix ekmanni....i once got 6 out of 20 but i didnt take the seeds out of baggie in time so all but one seedling rotted.

Licuala Mapu which is usually considered hard to germinate was quite easy for me but I imagine can be difficult considering all the fungus problems and length of time it can take. Surprisingly I was able to get 6t/10 to germinate in less than 7 months, didn't receive fresh seed either.

[Nigel]

(Gaston in Argentina @ Nov. 30 2007,14:09)

QUOTE

Let`s add:

Acrocomia (any), Syagrus macrocarpa, some Attaleas, dubia as the record of the most difficult of this genous.-

Nigel, here we use "turba fueguina" (from Tierra del Fuego island) i think is the same then its called "cannadian moss" in the US, i undestand its a semifossil of thousand years in the freezee soil of some spagnum moss.-

Its MAGIC for any seeds (the difficults Butias incluided) using with the same moisture how it come packaged.

Gaston, thats right, and even spaghnum moss with all water squeezed out works well with Butia seeds because it gives the right combination of water and air.

Gileno, I find that Butia seeds germinate within a few weeks of being fresh , after 6 months I throw them away.

[mike in kurtistown]

I think freshness is a major problem with many "problem" seeds. I know someone in the late 90's who got kilos of Lemurophoenix and Voaniola seeds directly from Madagascar and had well over 50 percent germination of the Lemurophoenix and a good percentage of the Voanioala. Another problem is viability, which might affect some Syagrus and Allagoptera species because of the way that seed fertilization occurs.

I bought a bunch of Tritrinax campestris seeds once and had good germination. Otherwise, I think that the other list members have been buying the same seeds from the same sources that I have (Acanthophoenix, Lepidorhachis). I have had some limited germination over long time periods with Burretiokentia and Basselina.

Gileno, I can give you an address to send fresh Euterpe precatoria seeds where they would be greatly appreciated. But you might want to check on your country's export laws, always a good thing to do.

Mike

[gerard]

(MattyB @ Nov. 30 2007,12:11)

QUOTE

I don't seem to have luck w/ any of the rarer Trachycarpus.  I'm zero for about a hundred.  I think it might be because by the time they come from China or wherever they're from they're too old.  I don't know.

The trachycarpus seeds do not germinating with more than 20 degrees Celcius

[Gileno Machado]

Mike:

I have checked the export local legislation since I've started swapping palms seeds a few years ago. It is still not forbidden here to send dried botanical natural samples abroad, whether native or exotic, unless it is CITES listed from local habitat or artificially genetic modified species. Obtaining phytocertificates for exporting large quantities of seed is another story and the sender needs to register and go through several bureaucratic procedures before the operation. For an amateur aficcionate here, receiving foreign exotic seeds from abroad is a little more complicated, and it is understandable, due to environmental threats and other sanitary reasons (I guess it's the same in USA, especially in Hawaii, where the local authorities check everything in close detail ). When I refer to CITES legislation, I understand that the agreement was made in order to protect threatned species in habitat and not for seeds produced by palms and cycads cultivated for horticultural purpose thousands of miles away from the origin, indroduced a long time back in the past. I personally don't see any benefit or difference, in terms of environment protection, about introducing and multiplying cultivated US naturalized Encephalartos or Voanioala (from certified origin) in either China, Australia, Brazil or other places in USA, proven it is not a dangerous species to the local flora or that it won't become an invasive species in the future. I am not in favour of uncontrolled dissemination of all botanic species but I'm personally against "market reserves" when it comes to cultivated seeds (and I'm very comfortable with this opinion because I'm not interested in becoming a seed dealer and I live in a megabiodiverse country, where there are some radical environmentalists always trying to push towards closing the borders for botanic export, with ridiculous nationalist arguments of natural botanic heritage...or even worst, with a prejudist botanic xenophobia)...

How nice will it be when we all can be able to buy Lodoicea fresh seeds from Bo in the future and help preserving the beautiful species in many places in this planet, for the benefit of future generations?  

Back to difficult seeds to germinate:

Corypha utan

Raphia taedigera.  

[Nigel]

(Gileno Machado @ Dec. 01 2007,07:42)

QUOTE

I live in a megabiodiverse country, where there are some radical environmentalists always trying to push towards closing the borders for botanic export, with ridiculous nationalist arguments of natural botanic heritage...or even worst, with a prejudist botanic xenophobia)...

Gileno, what a terrifying prospect, all those farmers with fields full of cultivated palms grown specifically for export..........

[SubTropicRay]

Gileno,

I agree completely with you about Oncosperma.  It has proven nearly impossible for me to germinate.

The now Acrocomia (formerly Gastrococcos crispa) and Colpothrinax wrightii have also been difficult for me.

Ray

[Logolight]

For me, my problem children are Licuala orbicularis and Socratea exorhhiza.

[bgl]

David,

Socratea seeds self-germinate en masse under my trees and if you're having difficulties there must be something wrong with the seeds. Maybe too old?

Bo-Göran

[rthink]

I never have good experience with germinating any Attalea or I'm just not patient enough! Many Licuala species are difficult for me as they take so long to germinate.

[Neofolis]

I would have to say that any seeds I get are difficult to germinate.  I obviously need more practice.  After planting a date seed and it germinating, I bought four species of Chamaedorea from Jason, all of which had reasonable germination rate, so I bought a plethora of species from Ortanique and Rare Palm Seeds and very little success with most of them.  It's really put me off, but I know that seeds are my best chance to get the species I want.  I have since had a few seeds from Carlo and one or two other species here and there, that I know where fresh, with zero results, which has put me off even further.  My polytunnel is always between 22°C/72°F and 32°C/90°F, so I shouldn't need any extra heat.  Originally I though my medium was too wet, so the more recent seeds I have kept in a drier medium, but still no joy.  I have tried enclosed containers, which retain the moisture and open containers, which I have sprayed to maintain moisture.  I have tried with and without flesh on the seed.  I think my main mistake with the seeds from Ortanique and Rare Palm Seeds may have been not pre-soaking, but the seeds I have had since were fresh from the plants or on the ground around the plants, so shouldn't have needed pre-soaking, but still no joy.

I guess I will try again some time, but it's easy to get disheartened.  These are the species that I have tried and failed, i.e. 0% germination.

Areca macrocalyx

Calyptrogyne ghiesbreghtiana

Carpentaria acuminata

Chamaerops humilis (cerifera)

Geonoma gamiova

Heterospathe negrosensis

Hydriastele rheophytica

Rhopalostylis sapida

Of the other species I have tried my success rates are still low.

Dypsis florencei (3/12)

Dypsis onilahensis (5/14)

Dypsis psammophila (2/12)

Geonoma schottiana (1/15)

Heterospathe scitula (3/15)

Lytocaryum weddellianum (1/10)

Phoenix roebelenii (1/13)

Some of the above had even germinated when they arrived here and still I have very little success.  It's made worse by knowing that some of those species are supposed to be really easy from seed.

OK, I'm going to stop feeling sorry for myself now and check what seeds Ortanique and RPS have at the moment.

[Trópico]

Any expensive seeds from RPS

[Caryota_gigas]

As the years go by I wait paitently for the Lepidorrhachis mooreana seeds to show some sign of something... anything...

[Really full garden]

I think fresh seed is the key.I have had fair germination with Oncosperma-50%

My recent failures are Pigafetta,several Geonomas and several small Dypsis.I have germinated Pigafetta in the past and got 90% germination.Like I said fresh seed makes all the difference.

                                                                                   Scott

[JD in the OC]

I second Jeff in Trabuco... any small dypsis seed sucks!!  Altho I got 40 out of 1000 of my D. mananjarensis to sprout.  Try 3 out of 1000 on my D. malcomberi.... that is bad.  And 0 out of 1000 on my D. hovomantsina.

How your's doing Jeff?...

PS. Voanioala and Orania ravaka are impossible to germ

[bgl]

Justin,

It may be that freshness is really crucial with the smaller Dypsis seeds. Based on POM, D. malcomberi and mananjarensis seeds are apparently equivalent in size to "Orange crush", and I've had no problems with these. Needless to say, they were super fresh. (And many other Forum members received these seeds as well, while they were still very fresh).

Bo-Göran

[Jason in Orlando]

Zippo on Mauritiella armata.  Several tries.  Nothing.  Nada.  Zilch.  I haven't tried enough Attalea seeds to be sure, but the ones I did try didn't germinate well.  Others that I tried small quantities of with zero or poor results were Hydriastele microspadix (0%), Plectocomia himalayana (0%), Cyrtostachys renda (few), Acrocomia (0%), Dypsis sahanofensis (1 out of 10), and Pseudophoenix spp. (few, and those that do germinate don't live long!).

Jason

[bgl]

Jason,

Cyrtostachys renda is another palm where I believe fresh seeds are crucial to success. And, incidentally, another small seed!

I received fresh C. renda seeds in early July (locally, but not from one of my own trees), put them in the medium on July 8, 2007, and this is what the seedlings look like today. Have no idea how many seeds I had, but certainly several hundred, and there must be several hundred seedlings as well.

Bo-Göran

[Neofolis]

You're going to have fun separating all of those.

[Neofolis]

Going back to thoughts on RPS.  There are a few seeds listed on the latest newsletter in the "New Seeds" section that I would like to try.  Are they more likely to be fresh, if they are listed as new seeds?  Is it worth spending the money?

[SubTropicRay]

Bo,

I agree freshness is the key with C. renda.  The seeds that Jeff from Costa Rica brough me over the summer were picked just before he got on the plane.  All 30 or so germinated over the next couple of months. My biggest challenge will be getting them through our "harsh" winter.

Ray

[bgl]

I've found that the main challenge with C. renda is not getting them to sprout but to be able to keep them alive after you pot them up. The roots are so tiny (and incidentally, Corey, that also means that separating the seedlings is actually very easy!).

[Scott Mcintosh]

I had read that Acrocomia take around 2yrs to sprout. Seed from my Acrocomia planted last fall have not sprouted, but the seed I planted in Aug. ( I cracked the hard shell)  is now a two leaf seedling.

[Trópico]

(Neofolis @ Dec. 05 2007,02:52)

QUOTE

Going back to thoughts on RPS.  There are a few seeds listed on the latest newsletter in the "New Seeds" section that I would like to try.  Are they more likely to be fresh, if they are listed as new seeds?  Is it worth spending the money?

They are more likely to be fresh. I don't order any seeds that are not labeled "New" anymore.

I don't see why you've had 0% on C. ghiesbreghtiana, as they always arrived germinated for me. This is the third time I order that palm species as I refuse to give up (all of mine die by the second leaf). This time around, with new soil mix, I am getting MUCH BETTER results.

Yeah small seeds are difficult. I lost an expensive batch of Pinanga aristata even before I opened the bag from the mail. Also, ZERO germination on:

Dypsis prestoniana

Dypsis interrupta

Hydriastele wendlandiana

Hydriastele rheophytica

1 out of 12:

Hydriastele sp. (East Sepik)

2 out of 12 (1 seedling is already 1 leafer and the other detached from the seed prematurely and is still a small spike): Hydriastele beguinii

[Logolight]

(bgl @ Dec. 02 2007,13:56)

QUOTE

David,

Socratea seeds self-germinate en masse under my trees and if you're having difficulties there must be something wrong with the seeds. Maybe too old?

Bo-Göran

Bo, it's possible.  I got the seeds from Ortanique back in August, but they came fresh in a moist bag of soil.  The problem may have been my own as I've had to re-plant them twice and the second time they may have accidentally dried out a little.  But I'll keep trying with them.

Thanks

Dave

[Jeff in St Pete]

(Ray @ Tampa,Dec. 05 2007,06:55)

QUOTE

Bo,

I agree freshness is the key with C. renda.  The seeds that Jeff from Costa Rica brough me over the summer were picked just before he got on the plane.  All 30 or so germinated over the next couple of months. My biggest challenge will be getting them through our "harsh" winter.

Ray

Ray, glad to hear they germinated.  They couldn't have been any fresher!

I received a large seed order at the end of June.  Here are my failures so far (I ordered 100 of each of these):

Carpoxylon macrospermum - I ordered and paid for 100 seeds but they shipped me 150 of them.  They seemed dried out when I got them and they all floated in water.  Not one has germinated.  Not sure why they sent me the extra 50?  Unless they knew they were old?  Those seeds were very expensive.  

Bentinckia nicobarica - 100 seeds, none germinated

Pigafetta elata - 7 germinated out of 100 seeds.  These seedlings are faster than any others I have grown.

Euterpe oleracea - seeds got some kind of fungus on them.  I managed to find one seed that germinated and that seedling is doing fine.  The other 99 seeds were thrown out.  

But on a positive note, I had good success with the following (from the same order received in June):

Rhopaloblaste augusta - I think all 100 seeds germinated.

Dictyosperma album - approx 60 out of 100 germinated.

Chamaedorea plumosa - about 30 seeds have germinated so far.

Burretiokentia hapala - seeds took 5 months to germinate but I now have at least 20 seedlings.

Bismarckia nobilis silver - At least 75 out of 100 germinated

Archontophoenix alexandrae , cunninghamiana, maxima and myolensis all had very good germination rates.  

Kentiopsis magnifica - just recently started germinating.  Looks like quite a few are popping.

Dypsis pembana also just starting to germinate  

When I placed my next order, I only ordered seeds that said "new" (and I only ordered 10 of each).  I received them in October and many of them have already started germinating.  Seeds must have been very fresh.  So far all 10 Johannesteijsmannia altifrons seeds are germinating.  And Johannesteijsmannia perakensis, Archontophoenix pupurea, Roystonea oleracea, and Kerriodoxa elegans are all now starting to germinate.  

From now on I will only buy "new" seeds.

[Neofolis]

I've just ordered:-

Areca vestiaria

Asterogyne martiana

Calyptrogyne ghiesbreghtiana (attempt no.2)

Heterospathe longipes (formerly Alsmithia longipes)

Heterospathe minor

Pholidostachys pulchra

Pinanga glaucescens

All were marked as new, so hopefully I will have better luck this time.

[Caryota_gigas]

This got me thinking on who is the most reliable supplier of fresh seed? What are your thoughts on who has the best quality stock