Native? needle palms in Chattanooga Tennessee???

[PAPalmtrees]

I was looking on inatural and found a post of needle palms in Booker T. Washington State Park in the woods I don't know if they were planted or not what do you guys think

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/64986308

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/62658690

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/21987677

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/71891737

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

I'm sure they were seeds scattered from a Johnny Palmseed, lol.  I'll check them out in a few days and do a YouTube video on them if I can find them. 

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

Well I checked it out and the only one I could find was the one pictured (hopefully I posted the pic correctly) below. Unless the GPS coordinates weren't exactly correct, I didn't see any others. I'll have to scout it out another day. At least I found one though. Thanks for sharing that PaPalmTrees, I would have never known. 

[PalmTreesAreCoolYes]

It's highly unlikely that a needle palm would be native to Tennessee. Their known native range is much further south. It's likely that someone scattered seeds or an animal transported the seeds from cultivated needle palms around that area. Or maybe someone just planted them there. What's far more likely to be native is sabal minor. Dwarf palmettos are native only around an hour and a half drive from Chattanooga in Cherokee County, Alabama. If you search sabal minor on inaturalist, people have taken pictures of them in Red Clay State Historic Park in southern Tennessee. That is probably the most likely area in Tennessee for having native dwarf palmettos in my opinion. The second most likely area in Tennessee to possibly have native dwarf palmettos would be along the Mississippi border in my opinion. On inaturalist, people have posted pictures of them close to the Tennessee border in Mississippi and one picture I saw in Tennessee but it is a bit farther north then I would imagine so I'm not fully sure about that one being native. 

In my experience, I think sabal minors are more cold hardy than needle palms when the plants are younger at least. I've never had a sabal minor spear pull on me but I've have it happen before with a needle palm. I know the needle palm is said to be the most cold hardy palm but I sometimes question that. I believe that palms can vary in cold tolerance even in the same species. A Florida needle palm should be less cold hardy than a Georgia needle palm for example. The sabal minor range extends very far north into northern Alabama. 

I wonder if a sabal minor from Cherokee County, Alabama would be more cold hardy than any needle palm? Either the Cherokee County sabal minor or the McCurtain county Oklahoma sabal minor should be the cold hardiest types of sabal minor in my opinion, or even the cold hardiest palms in the world. If Tennessee is ever proven to have native dwarf palmettos, then they would possibly be the cold hardiest palms in the world. I know it may be a little far fetched, but that area of Red Clay State Historic Park seems pretty similar in climate to northern Alabama and it doesn't seem too far away and pictures of dwarf palmettos have already been posted of them on inaturalist so I'm just connecting the dots here. That may be the very northern extent of their natural range where they are just very scattered and few and far between. 

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

No it's (needle palm) definitely not native to Tennessee. Sabal minor would have a better chance but even so probably isn't native but certainly hardy and capable of reproducing.

Check out this video I did earlier this summer from Red Clay. These have been here since about 2004.

I agree with your assessment on the sabal minor. Probably gonna be Mississippi River area or Chattanooga area, but I believe the Savannah area and warmer parts of extreme southern middle Tennessee could be candidates. 

Absolutely, in my experience, minors are much easier to grow than needle palms. I've never lost a minor but have lost a handful of needle palms over the years. I think once a needle gets some serious size to them, their hardiness really shines. Minors are tough as nails too. Having said all that, it's odd that the native range of the needle (which folks claim are the hardiest palm) is further south than the minor.  I think some say it may be due to the needle palm seeds aren't as easily accessible by critters and often times remain caught within the needles themselves. Minors on the other hand are prolific and very easily accessed by animals, etc...

There are large needle palms in Knoxville that have been there for several decades. I also know of another one that is huge around the highland rim of the TN plateau region, it's about 20-30 years old. As for minors, I've heard and seen them in a lot of places, including even naturalizing in an area of White County. Those have been there for over 50 years, at least the ones remaining. Sadly, the land was redeveloped and very little left now. 

[PAPalmtrees]

11 hours ago, maskedmole said:

It's highly unlikely that a needle palm would be native to Tennessee. Their known native range is much further south. It's likely that someone scattered seeds or an animal transported the seeds from cultivated needle palms around that area. Or maybe someone just planted them there. What's far more likely to be native is sabal minor. Dwarf palmettos are native only around an hour and a half drive from Chattanooga in Cherokee County, Alabama. If you search sabal minor on inaturalist, people have taken pictures of them in Red Clay State Historic Park in southern Tennessee. That is probably the most likely area in Tennessee for having native dwarf palmettos in my opinion. The second most likely area in Tennessee to possibly have native dwarf palmettos would be along the Mississippi border in my opinion. On inaturalist, people have posted pictures of them close to the Tennessee border in Mississippi and one picture I saw in Tennessee but it is a bit farther north then I would imagine so I'm not fully sure about that one being native. 

In my experience, I think sabal minors are more cold hardy than needle palms when the plants are younger at least. I've never had a sabal minor spear pull on me but I've have it happen before with a needle palm. I know the needle palm is said to be the most cold hardy palm but I sometimes question that. I believe that palms can vary in cold tolerance even in the same species. A Florida needle palm should be less cold hardy than a Georgia needle palm for example. The sabal minor range extends very far north into northern Alabama. 

I wonder if a sabal minor from Cherokee County, Alabama would be more cold hardy than any needle palm? Either the Cherokee County sabal minor or the McCurtain county Oklahoma sabal minor should be the cold hardiest types of sabal minor in my opinion, or even the cold hardiest palms in the world. If Tennessee is ever proven to have native dwarf palmettos, then they would possibly be the cold hardiest palms in the world. I know it may be a little far fetched, but that area of Red Clay State Historic Park seems pretty similar in climate to northern Alabama and it doesn't seem too far away and pictures of dwarf palmettos have already been posted of them on inaturalist so I'm just connecting the dots here. That may be the very northern extent of their natural range where they are just very scattered and few and far between. 

100% Agree with you That Sabal minor Are more cold hardy then Needle Palms cuz All of my needle palms have spear pulled And none of my sabals have really got any damage. Also Warren
Arkansas Has native sabal minors So  those are probably some of them most cold hearty sabals to. and Also I have done a lot of research in sabal minor In Tennessee. 

[SeanK]

1 hour ago, PaPalmTrees said:

100% Agree with you That Sabal minor Are more cold hardy then Needle Palms cuz All of my needle palms have spear pulled And none of my sabals have really got any damage. Also Warren
Arkansas Has native sabal minors So  those are probably some of them most cold hearty sabals to. and Also I have done a lot of research in sabal minor In Tennessee. 

I find that Rhapidophyllum likes to be dry in winter. S.minor will tolerate water.

[Allen]

17 hours ago, PaPalmTrees said:

100% Agree with you That Sabal minor Are more cold hardy then Needle Palms cuz All of my needle palms have spear pulled And none of my sabals have really got any damage. Also Warren
Arkansas Has native sabal minors So  those are probably some of them most cold hearty sabals to. and Also I have done a lot of research in sabal minor In Tennessee. 

Needles are for sure more frond hardy and when established more cold hardy.  The needles spear is exposed to the cold above ground and the minor is in a much warmer underground location.  Thus if exposed to the same cold the minors spear area would take cold damage before the needle.   People put out Florida grown needles and don't protect them for a couple years till they are growing well and the slow growth in the spear area lets fungus get hold.  When we had -6F or lower our soil temp was in the 20's in the 0-10cm layer. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQIR66ZUiCE

 

[PAPalmtrees]

4 minutes ago, Allen said:

Needles are for sure more frond hardy and when established more cold hardy.  The needles spear is exposed to the cold above ground and the minor is in a much warmer underground location.  Thus if exposed to the same cold the minors spear area would take cold damage before the needle.   People put out Florida grown needles and don't protect them for a couple years till they are growing well and the slow growth in the spear area lets fungus get hold.  

I got 2 Florida grown needle palms When i was new to palms Not knowing any better I did not protect them in the winter, and One died and the other one spear pulled That's when I realized I needed to protect them in the winter, This winter is probably gonna be the last winter all protect.

17 hours ago, PaPalmTrees said:

100% Agree with you That Sabal minor Are more cold hardy then Needle Palms cuz All of my needle palms have spear pulled And none of my sabals have really got any damage. Also Warren
Arkansas Has native sabal minors So  those are probably some of them most cold hearty sabals to. and Also I have done a lot of research in sabal minor In Tennessee. 

I meant to say needle palms are less hearty when they're Young

[L.A.M.]

On 12/27/2024 at 5:36 AM, PalmTreesAreCoolYes said:

It's highly unlikely that a needle palm would be native to Tennessee. Their known native range is much further south. It's likely that someone scattered seeds or an animal transported the seeds from cultivated needle palms around that area. Or maybe someone just planted them there. What's far more likely to be native is sabal minor. Dwarf palmettos are native only around an hour and a half drive from Chattanooga in Cherokee County, Alabama. If you search sabal minor on inaturalist, people have taken pictures of them in Red Clay State Historic Park in southern Tennessee. That is probably the most likely area in Tennessee for having native dwarf palmettos in my opinion. The second most likely area in Tennessee to possibly have native dwarf palmettos would be along the Mississippi border in my opinion. On inaturalist, people have posted pictures of them close to the Tennessee border in Mississippi and one picture I saw in Tennessee but it is a bit farther north then I would imagine so I'm not fully sure about that one being native. 

In my experience, I think sabal minors are more cold hardy than needle palms when the plants are younger at least. I've never had a sabal minor spear pull on me but I've have it happen before with a needle palm. I know the needle palm is said to be the most cold hardy palm but I sometimes question that. I believe that palms can vary in cold tolerance even in the same species. A Florida needle palm should be less cold hardy than a Georgia needle palm for example. The sabal minor range extends very far north into northern Alabama. 

I wonder if a sabal minor from Cherokee County, Alabama would be more cold hardy than any needle palm? Either the Cherokee County sabal minor or the McCurtain county Oklahoma sabal minor should be the cold hardiest types of sabal minor in my opinion, or even the cold hardiest palms in the world. If Tennessee is ever proven to have native dwarf palmettos, then they would possibly be the cold hardiest palms in the world. I know it may be a little far fetched, but that area of Red Clay State Historic Park seems pretty similar in climate to northern Alabama and it doesn't seem too far away and pictures of dwarf palmettos have already been posted of them on inaturalist so I'm just connecting the dots here. That may be the very northern extent of their natural range where they are just very scattered and few and far between. 

Agreed. And the MS border does have wild ones. Parker Street and Church Street in Hornsby have many!