Tropicals being banned in FL?

[SunnyFl]

I found this info on the CFPACS board - in the For Sale or Trade forum, a reply-post entitled "Palms Needed - Pindos & Queens."  It was posted by "palm_grower," GTC Nursery (which is a very fine nursery, btw):  Queen Palms have now been classified as Type II Invasive in Brevard County.  Since it was posted by GTC, it is reliable.

Now, I have visited Brevard on numerous occasions, and maybe I'm too dumb to notice, but I really can't say I saw any evidence of this palm wreaking havoc upon the land.

There is a trend that is gathering very serious momentum in many FL counties - the sincere desire to "discourage" non-native plants as they (supposedly) all constitute a dire threat to our environs.  The usual excuses to stick with natives are: they require less water (not necessarily true) and they require less chemical pest control as they attract fewer pests (also not necessarily true).  After having endured several lectures by fairly sanctimonious followers of this trend, I've come to the conclusion that, for some inexplicable reason, many people feel that beauty in any form cannot be tolerated.  Btw, I've also heard from a local nursery owner that the county is starting to tell her not to carry certain items - and we're not talking melaleuca & brazilian pepper here, either.

You can't argue with these people.  And facts do not mean one d**n thing!  First off, they've drawn an artificial line as to what constitutes "native."  That is: if the plant was known to be here during the time Columbus discovered America, it's native.  I don't believe Nature holds any special regard for Columbus' discovery.  Next:  many natives are not conserving of water; in fact, some require more water than some exotics.  (This makes sense, because there were far more wetlands earlier in time than there are now.)  As to pest-resistance - have any of these people ever heard of the palmetto weevi? or royal-palm bug? they attack native sabals and royals far more often than some exotic palms.  In addition, nature itself does not favor restriction of species - the biological imperative is to spread as far as possible, in order to perpetuate a species.  Nature uses any means to achieve this end, whether it be seeds that flow in a river, carried on the winds of a storm, seeds that are spread by birds and animals - or people establishing species in new places.

Here's something else to consider:  when a pejorative is overused, it loses value.  When designating species that do not, in fact, suffocate and kill out native vegetation "invasive," the whole concept of invasiveness is devalued.  How on earth can a non-clustering palm possibly cause the same type of damage as say, the notorious brazilian pepper which spreads by seed and runner to form impenetrable thickets - or the infamous melaleuca which spread like wildfire and does indeed choke out our native species.

What I'm afraid will happen, as this movement gains momentum, is that increasingly there will be pressure put on nurseries - or outright laws - against planting the tropicals we love so much.  And obviously, this will include palms.   The more progress these people make in determining county policy, the more strident I believe they will become.  I know it sounds ridiculous to think there could come a time when we aren't free to plant what we want, but it could happen.  And I do believe it will.

[summerdaze]

Hello SunnyFl

  I agree with you. Although it is always good to keep in mind that some species may become a problem when relocated from their native lands most are not a threat. I contend that all plants are native, (to the planet Earth). Any species could conceivably be spread around the globe by any number of means that don't even include human intervention. It amazes me that people fret over Brazilian pepper when any number of bird species that migrate from South America could easily carry Brazilian pepper seeds to Florida. Some non-native plants still provide food and shelter for native animal species. Plants should not be discouraged simply because they thrive in a non native environment. Indeed in these times as the climate changes non-natives may be more tolerant to the vagaries of weather than some of the more sensitive natives. Also I have removed several native plants from my garden because they were continually plagued by plant pests. Additionally almost no one who comes to Florida wants to have a yard full of pine trees, palmettos, and dried grass! Which by the way is an extremely flammable combination as we have found out! Cheers, Mike

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Sunny,

If you were to ask Larry Shockman, mentioned in the RLR threads, he would refer to the people you are talking about as the "Native Nazis".  He does not say this in a joking manner.  He can't stand these people.

Larry runs the Kampong, the former home of David Fairchild.  It has a huge collection of non native plants, mostly flowering trees and fruit trees.  Larry is very active in the Tropical Flowering Tree Society and has hosted the TFTS Color Conference several times.

It would be hard to imagine Florida without all the exotics that we grow.  We only have 11 or 12 native palms here and just about no flowering trees or shrubs.  It would be a pretty drab landscape.

Queen palms have been outlawsd or curtailed in other places around the world, Queensland comes to mind.  If you have to ban a palm, a queen palm would get my vote.

Jerry

[Patrick]

out here in california, if you ask me, the more queen palms the better. We see too much scrub out here & need the tropical touch.

but on a serious note, I remember on a past thread that the university of Florida, or some big college like that is and has been cutting down all these non-native trees, palm included as part of a "native plants only" policy. What's up with that? I can't grow half the things you guys can! It's like Fl is the tropical hub of the us, aside from hawaii. It's really a shame.

[cfkingfish]

Believe me, I would like to see much more variety around the area, but the truth is the common tourist/homeowner/landscaper does not care what kind of palm or tropical plant grows, as long as the look is there. When Royals go for 5-10 times as much per clear foot of trunk than a Queen, what do you think they will plant?  

Class II invasive means that the plant is not native, has been found outside of cultivation (aka primary forest), but its invasiveness does not warrant a halt to its sale and planting. I believe at the moment, Class II palm invasives for most of Central and South Florida are:

Livistona chinensis

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Phoenix reclinata, and hybrids thereof.

[bgl]

Sunny,

I agree with everything you said. Except with your last statement ("And I do believe it will"). I still believe that common sense will prevail, if for no other reason than the crass fact that there's too much money involved for these people to prevail (on a major scale). Unfortunately, there's always going to be narrow minded and ignorant people with too much time on their hands... Here in Hawaii, there's a similar movement, still fairly limited (I believe), but every now and then they raise their ugly heads and voice one of their outrageous ideas. Such as getting rid of all the A. alexandrae growing on the steep slopes of the deep and wide gulches on the Hamakua coast north of Hilo. (See my photo, I think in Post #2 in Common Palms a few days ago). Why on earth do they think they could replace these thousands of beautiful, and very useful, palms with some native plant is beyond me. If they were able to eradicate the palms, chances are some fast growing, very intrusive foreign weed plant would take over. These palms are very useful, because those slopes are extremely steep, and without them there would be a major erosion problem. Most native plants are relatively slow growing, and would be no match for a "foreign" weed plant. Some of these fanatics talk about getting rid of all non-native tropicals from Hawaii. My guess is that any such attempt (on a large scale) would meet widespread opposition from 99% of all homeowners here...!

And Mike, I also happen to be of the opinion that the definition of 'native' is 'native to our planet'. Apart from those plants that can clearly be put in the category of 'invasive', spreading palms (and various other plants) to areas other than where they were initially found is something that I happen to believe is important, and probably crucial to the survival of many of them. The funny thing of course is that if palms were able to talk (OK, we're going out on a limb here....), they would probably extend their eternal gratitude to humanity for the invention of the jet airplane. Thanks to jets, and the increasing movement of people across the globe, we're now able to cultivate unusual palms from (for instance)Madagascar in places like Australia and Hawaii etc etc. This is clearly in the palms' interest, since the number 1 priority of any plant is to reproduce, and hopefully spread its offspring into a large area. And what could be better than spreading it ALL over the planet, to those areas where the plant will grow?

Some of these narrow-minded people obviously have a selfish interest (whatever that may be!!) in this, because it's certainly NOT in a palm's (or any plant's) interest to be confined to just the area where it originally grew! Historically, looking back over millions of years, plants have always spread from one area to the next and the next etc etc. Just look at the coconut palms! Humanity is part of the life of this planet, and whether you like it or not, the movement of seeds, or plants, whether by the wind, birds, other animals, or people is natural. Having said that (and I strongly believe that), I also do believe certain restrictions must exist in order to prevent disease and invasive plants to spread.

Bo-Göran

[Rusty on Pine Is.]

Believe me, I would like to see much more variety around the area, but the truth is the common tourist/homeowner/landscaper does not care what kind of palm or tropical plant grows, as long as the look is there. When Royals go for 5-10 times as much per clear foot of trunk than a Queen, what do you think they will plant?

That's so true, Christian.....in my case as well.....

However, when i talk to any of my friends who laud the virtues of native palms, and then mention Royals, I almost always get looks of disbelief when i tell them that the Royal is only native to a very small area of Florida....other than the Glades, Big Cypress, and a couple in Corkscrew....anyone, fell free to chime in if there are other places.

And the same holds true for Cocothrinax argentata, and Thrinax radiata and morrisii....

Yes, all are Florida 'native' , but that is painting with a pretty broad brush, IMO...

[SunnyFl]

(Jerry@TreeZoo @ Aug. 19 2006,21:50)

QUOTE

Sunny,

If you were to ask Larry Shockman, mentioned in the RLR threads, he would refer to the people you are talking about as the "Native Nazis".  He does not say this in a joking manner.  He can't stand these people.

Good!  Because they are Nazis, and I'm not joking either.  They are, frankly, a threat to the environment they claim to protect.  I tried to keep my OP as civilized as possible (difficult) b/c I value the amicable and respectful spirit of this forum.   But these people are determined to seize the right to tell the rest of us what we may and may not do, even though their arguments don't hold up.  They make me ill.  And if I were a professional grower or nurseryman, I would be very worried.

Patrick wrote:

I remember on a past thread that the university of Florida, or some big college like that is and has been cutting down all these non-native trees, palm included as part of a "native plants only" policy. What's up with that?

Right - it was the University of FL in Gainesville.  A very disheartening story:  the head of landscaping, Noel Lake, had established beautiful plantings there, including "exotics."  When he retired, his replacements determined that everything was to be "native" - and the beautiful non-natives were ripped out.  There was even a story that they were considering removing a double-headed S. palmetto (could'a sworn that was native) - because it wasn't natural!  Anyway, you can find the disgusting story on the CFPACS forum, here:

http://207.210.245.133/forum/viewtopic.php?t=288

Cfkingfish wrote:

Class II invasive means that the plant is not native, has been found outside of cultivation (aka primary forest), but its invasiveness does not warrant a halt to its sale and planting.

This goes back to devaluation of words.  "Invasive" describes a species that naturalizes, then takes over - crowding out and suffocating the natives.  This term should be far more cautiously applied:  it's ridiculous to use the same term that one uses for kudzu - the vine that ate the south - which blankets and suffocates whole forests, or for brazilian pepper which overtakes native areas, forms huge colonies and literally crowds out native vegetation.  If L. chinensis or S. romanzoffiana have naturalized, one would hardly expect huge colonies of them (they're not clustering, and L. chinensis isn't even a fast grower).   Frankly I hope they have successfully naturalized - our undeveloped lands will be all the more beautiful because of them.

Bo wrote:

Sunny,

I agree with everything you said. Except with your last statement ("And I do believe it will"). I still believe that common sense will prevail

Oh Bo, I wish it would.  But that's not likely.  These people - as unbelievable as it sounds - have even enlisted university professors in their cause.  They have a lot of clout.  Cryptobionic, who posts in this forum and in CFPACS, recounted in that thread that a landscape plan being developed for a condo (I think it was) was rejected.... because it included a Bismarkia! which they called invasive.

They are getting power a little at a time.  They are now dictating what palms and other plants can be planted at new developments.  They're pressuring the counties to dictate to nurseries what "should be" banned, and the counties are complying.  They're pressuring homeowners associations (can't stand those things) to regulate what homeowners can do.  

When you must remove a tree, you have to have a permit.  The conditions of the permit include planting a "listed" species as a replacement.  Already, very few non-natives are on the list (I think just 2: ligustrum and crepe myrtle).   The native-only nazis are trying to get those off the list - according to them, better to have non-wind-resistant, water-loving natives than drought-tolerant, wind-resistant "exotics."  Which makes no sense at all, considering our water shortages and storms.  It starts a little at a time, and no one notices.... and then it snowballs.  Give them an inch, and they'll take the whole state.

[DoomsDave]

Yeah, Florida's gone batty.

Flash on the sub, and you're a "sex offender" guilty of everything from rape to murder.  

Florida is a state of Hysteriocracy, Rule by or of, hysterics or hysteria.

God help you, all, we're not so far behind.

dave

[Walt]

With regard to queen palms becoming invasive, just this year I noticed for the first time I have them coming up all over my property. They are coming up in areas where no queen palms are planted, hence I think the squirrels are carrying the nuts to remote areas and planting them. Be that as it may, I'm letting them all grow, even if it creates a queen palm jungle.

The day that the state limits me to only native species of palms, trees, etc., is the day I'm outta here.

A while back I spotted this queen palm on the fairway of a local golf course:

by waltcat100

[Dave-Vero]

Here's my post from CFPACS.  Brevard County (Cape Canaveral/Melbourne, etc) has a landscape task force, and they might be working on expanding the county's "undesirable" list.  I'm sure Palmgrower knows the situation better than me.  

I don't think Brevard has yet labeled Queens as "undesirable."  Here's relevant language from the county landscaping ordinance:

Undesirable species means any of the following species: Casuarina equisentifolia (Australian pine), Casuarina glauca (suckering Australian pine), Dioscorea bulbifera (air potato), Lantana camara (lantana), Melaleuca quinquenervia (melaleuca), Sapium sebiferum (Chinese tallow tree), Schinus terebinthifolius (Brazilian pepper), Sansevieria hyacinthoides (African bowstring hemp), Ricinus communis (castor bean plant), Rhodomyrtus tomestosa (downy rose myrtle), and including the species as found on the Florida Exotic Pest Plant Council's List of Florida's Most Invasive Species.

http://www.brevardcounty.us/environ....ing.pdf  (searchable pdf document)

I think the ordinance's reference to the EPPC's List of Florida's Most Invasive Species means the Category I species.  Some species in Category II (which includes queen palm) might need to be moved to Category I in the future, but few of them need regulation throughout their ranges.  The FLEPPC website explains "proper use" of their lists

http://www.fleppc.org/

__

The state has suffered severely from exotic pest plants, many of which thrive because they don't have the natural enemies (i.e. herbivores) that they do back home.  A good example of this phenomenon is melaleuca and pond apple.  The former, from Queensland, is a severe problem (including fire hazard) in Florida, where it grows far faster than at home.  In turn, Florida's pond apple has become a pest in melaleuca vegetation in Queensland.  

In some localities, local landscape ordinances have become pretty demanding in recent years.  Miami-Dade long discouraged trees that easily fall apart in the wind (such as Pithecellobium dulce) and has detailed lists of species suitable for different kinds of sites; it may be the most elaborate set of county rules in the state.   

As you'd guess, the http://www.fnga.org/ is quite active.  The Association of Florida Native Nurseries is tiny by comparison but includes some very competent businesses.  The two board members I know have been in business for at least 20 years.

[Tyrone]

Australia, at least west Oz, is developing the same mentality you are describing. The Weed Brigade has taken over government quarantine policy. "Native Nazi's"..... how apt. No imagination and a warped and ill-informed sense of what is "right".

But really, who are the real weeds, the plants, or the humans that preceded them, or the Native Nasties oops Nazi's.

Lets just ban everything to be on the safe side. Horticultural cleansing.  

regards

Tyrone

[BobbyinNY]

Yeah, Florida's gone batty.

Flash on the sub, and you're a "sex offender" guilty of everything from rape to murder.  

Florida is a state of Hysteriocracy, Rule by or of, hysterics or hysteria.

God help you, all, we're not so far behind.

dave

Yeah, Dave... as much as I do love Florida , the local government is some of the counties can really be wackos... Those HOAs are, in plain english, A@@holes.... When I used to live there, they had a law enacted that would make it a crime to play certain rap music in your own car...just ridiculous.

[Central Floridave]

Chief Osceola just called...he said he wants all Non-natives out of Florida...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osceola

[Logolight]

Hell, Magnolia trees are all over the place and they make a mess.  I see them being planted all the time around new structures.  Those are invasive.

[Dave-Vero]

Logolight,

You're in an area where magnolia trees are native, grow fast, and get HUGE.  When I lived there, I noticed that homeowners tended to remove mature specimens--grass doesn't grow under them.

A couple of years ago, I was in Tokyo, visiting Rikugi-en, one of two Edo-period daimyo (feudal lord) gardens surviving in the city.  It's quite big, and had several big, beautiful evergreen-leaved trees.  It took me almost a minute to realize they were southern magnolias.  One, in a place of honor, had been trimmed Japanese-style, with surplus branches removed to make the tree's structure more visible.  

This spectacular American tree is admired wherever it'll grow.  By the way, the southern Catalpa (mentioned in the RLR discussion) was popular in Europe and the American colonies in the 18th century.

[Alan_Tampa]

The invasive plant crap is just that in most cases, a big stink over a little turd.  Class II means ' We're watching you."  (we being environmentalists /hypocrites who think an oak in every yard somehow mitigates or atones for the concrete tombstone standing proud in its st Augustine encrusted graveyard.)

An environmental scientist is not the same as a environ -MENTAL- ist.  One is a nut-job bent on native plant ordinances and enamored with live oak to an unhealthy degree.  The other is a scientist. Sometimes a person with a degree of the type one might assume deals with the said topic is drawn to the dumb side as people believe the bs that emits forth from thier maws because they have a B.S..  

Plant whatever you feel like, they couldn't tell the difference anyway.  The queen palm, or any other palm for that matter, is far less a "risk" than the houses we live in and the cars we scurry about in.  Anyone who can't see that needs a time out.

Or a boot to the head.

Alan

[SunnyFl]

(BobbyinNY @ Aug. 21 2006,09:17)

QUOTE

Yeah, Florida's gone batty.

Flash on the sub, and you're a "sex offender" guilty of everything from rape to murder.  

Florida is a state of Hysteriocracy, Rule by or of, hysterics or hysteria.

God help you, all, we're not so far behind.

dave

Yeah, Dave... as much as I do love Florida , the local government is some of the counties can really be wackos... Those HOAs are, in plain english, A@@holes.... When I used to live there, they had a law enacted that would make it a crime to play certain rap music in your own car...just ridiculous.

Bobby, your description of these HOA's is quite right, you hit the nail on the head!  Not only do some of them regulate what you can grow - they limit the amount of garden you can have.  Which is one of the reasons I made certain my lil digs is not ruled by one!

Silly me, I thought we were freedom-loving Americans, but I guess that's passè.

Dave, I love your term:  Hysteriocracy.  ROFLMBO - that's exactly what it is!  A Florida state of mind!

[SunnyFl]

Quoth Central Floridave:

Chief Osceola just called...he said he wants all Non-natives out of Florida...

YEAH!  We're the real non-native threat to the state!

We do have to control the real invasives - plants that are an actual threat like brazilian pepper and kudzu.    Btw, some of this stuff was brought here deliberately (erosion control) and without any regard for the consequences.  It was a quickie solution for ecological damage usually caused by humans.

But as Dave in Vero points out, the all-native people are getting very demanding.  The one I was talking with (getting lectured by) was a case in point:  he even went so far as to say that nurseries shouldn't offer tropicals because "people might get to hankerin' after them."  Sayyyyyyy what????  I guess if he doesn't like something, no one should have it.

Alan, you're right about the difference between an environmental scientist and an environ-MENTAL-ist.  I think I'm an environmentalist (in a balanced sense of the word) - and I see these nut-cases as being ecologically dead wrong.  The more we limit species, the greater the danger that one pest can wipe out natural areas - that's WHY nature tries to SPREAD species, not restrict them.

Example:  southern wax myrtle.  It's on the list of "approved" species (hm, native sea grape is not) but I couldn't find one of legal size.  And why?  Because, a grower told me, quite a number have been wiped out by a plant disease.

I can understand Miami wanting to discourage planting non-wind-resistant species.  Although it's sad that they're replacing royals with oaks.  But if they want wind-resistance, nothing beats the date palms, and crepe myrtle is a winner too.  Butias are supposed to be quite good, and dictyosperma alba is excellent.

If you want to get rid of non-wind resistant plants, you can start with laurel oak.  It's one of the worst.

The all-natives never take into consideration that, like it or not, whether human-induced or not, the planet is warming.  And we've lost a lot of wetland.  Due to increased particulate (pollution), we may have less rainfall.  Any of these situations will stress or maybe kill out native species.  Time to increase the bio-diversity!  As Mike (summerdaze) said, all plants are native - to Planet Earth.

[Dave-Vero]

Landscaping ordinances are difficult to contrive and even messier to enforce.

I am among those with laurel oaks that the City of Vero Beach insists on protecting.  

A friend who built a new workshop/office had a miserable time finding Simpson stoppers large enough to meet City requirements.  Annoyingly, tiny stoppers grow faster once planted than big ones, so you're wasting money to buy biggies.  (My biggest stopper got whacked by a flying tool shed, so it has an excuse for not being as large as the "baby" next to it).  Of course I recommend stoppers to anyone far south enough for them to be happy.  Also "wild olive"--Forestiera segregata, an excellent hedge plant.  

By the way, Miami-Dade Adopt-a-Tree has an impressive and intelligent list of choices.  On the other hand, the county doesn't want you to plant a royal palm near a tropical hammock--too much chance of unwanted seedlings.  Miami-Dade has lots of problems, including too few trees, but their Department of Environmental Resources Management has done a lot of good over the years--and has similar guidance for sites near beach vegetation, pine rocklands, and so on.  

Thinking of wind resistance, it was gratifying to visit Miami-Dade's tall downtown office building months after Andrew, and see that the tree canopy in the Coconut Grove area was bright green.  Local observers were persuaded that, except with catastrophic winds, the tree canopy offers significant protection to houses and other low buildings.

[Walter John]

Nice read this one. There's many countries now refusing to allow export of any plant (palm) seed to enable survival within their natural habitat. Whilst this may help the palm to survive in it's home (stop people from raiding the seeds) the odds for the palm to become extinct is increased. Scientific balance must happen somehow. On the other hand , why not open it all up completey, let the seeds travel, let the fauna travel with it to ensure balance in nature. Have bridges to certain countries for the fauna and flora to move around, one planet earth. here's the abridged "bridged earth". Yes that is a bridge from Australia to Hawaii. .

Now don't get upset, it's only a draft.

[Dave-Vero]

One of the remarkable features of plant geography is that traces of the ancient continent of Gondwana are still visible.  It's conceivable that the southern beech (Nothofagus) moved across oceans (someone wrote a scientific paper arguing that it might be possible), but it's more likely that it, Araucaria, and quite a few other plants are indeed Gondwanan.  And apparently SW Australia is particularly Gondwanan.  

When I finally visited Hawaii, it was to see the endemic plants and birds up in the cloud forest, not the same cultivated plants that I could see in Florida (it was, however, interesting to see a Bahamian Clusia rosea strangling a Queensland Schefflera).

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Well I have to disagree with two things in this thread.

#1. That law against Rap music is a GOOD law.

#2.  Now how is it possible that California is calling Florida batty?

Jerry

[Eric in Orlando]

Many natives can be invasive in a cultivated situation. Around here plants like Firebush, Hamelia patens, and Cherry Laurel, Prunus caroliniana, produce large amounts of seed that sprout everywhere. The god-awful Laurel Oaks, Quercus laurifolia, also can be a nuisance, producing lots of acorns that readily sprout.

I am not promoting invasive exotics, but take Brazilian Pepper Trees. I can not reasonably think they will ever eradicate this totally from FL. It is so entenched and widespread in central and southern FL it is virtually impossible to remove every specimen. Though it does form a monoculture and crowds out native plants, it does have minute value. Many birds feed on the fruits, especially migratory birds. It does provide cover and refuge for smaller animals. It will grow without care where other plants won't, especially in urban areas, and produces oxygen.

[Eric in Orlando]

After the 3 hurricanes in 2004, here are the trees that held up best here at Leu Gardens;

Nageia nagi (formerly Podocarpus nagi)- We have over a dozen mature specimens and none any branches, hardy any foliage blew off. This is a tough tree and was the best for wind resistance.

Quercus virginiana-Southern Live Oak

Taxodium distichum-Bald Cypress

Taxodium ascendens-Pond Cypress

Magnolia grandiflora-Southern Magnolia

Bischofia javanica-Toog Tree (invasive in southern FL but behaved up here)

The absoulte worse was Laurel Oak, Quercus laurifolia.

[Dave-Vero]

I suspect the trick with laurel oaks is to cut 'em down while they're still in decent shape.  

Carolina laurel-cherry is indeed an urban pest--my Jacksonville yard was always loaded with seedlings.  I don't have firebush in my yard, so haven't seen it producing seedlings.  The species isn't all that common in the wild, so something must eat it.  Beautyberry (Callicarpa) does spread by seed.  The one in my backyard is obviously there thanks to bird dispersal from the neighbor's yard.  (On the side, it's been good temporary shelter for several young palms)

The Invasive Plant Research Lab in Fort Lauderdale is probably one of the best in the world, depending on what sort of facilities exist in Australia.  They're working on Brazilian pepper, among many other problems.  The University of Florida has set up a similar lab in Fort Pierce.

I haven't encountered objections to Brazilian pepper removal from bird biologists.

The Florida Natural Areas Inventory has a pest plant database http://www.fnai.org/, parallel to their remarkable interactive map/satellite image system.

[Walt]

While I don't want to be dictated to as to what I can and can not grow, I can well understand some of the rationale behind possibly banning some plants. For the most part, I feel one can do what they please on their side of the fence as long as what they do (plant) doesn't spread over and infringe on others. (I'm not subjected to HOA rules, regulations, covenants, and restrictions, etc.)

One vine I will never plant again is the red passion vine. I planted a two gallon pot of red passion vine at the base of an unbooted Sabal Palmetto. Within a few years it had overtaken the palm and spread to adjacent red bay trees. The vine ran across the ground and was coming up all over. Finally, last winter I totally removed and cut it all back. This spring it started coming up again, climbing the Sabal palmetto's trunk, but I'm keeping it under control now. Where it pops up here and there on the ground I just mow over (it's not in my main sodded areas).

Below is a photo of red passion vine my former neighbor had growing in his back yard (read photo caption for details):

by waltcat100

[epicure3]

(Jerry@TreeZoo @ Aug. 21 2006,22:32)

QUOTE

Well I have to disagree with two things in this thread.

#2.  Now how is it possible that California is calling Florida batty?

Jerry

Good point!

[Alan_Tampa]

I think the intercontinental highway will be done about the same time the major plates meet up once more and make a new Godawfulland and all the little birdies and mousies and planties can meet in a grudge match - there can be only one.  (Highlander should have been only one)

If people stopped denuding the landscape brazilian pepper, auss pine and others would be a lot less of a nuisance.  But nobody likes to point this out.  BP makes great honey by the way, very very good.

Kudzu is not a problem in Florida, at least central and south florida anyway.

The only sane way to protect the "environment" is to move to mars, but that is wacko so the next best thing is to remove from development areas (parks, preserves soups, national forests) and police them and remove the so-called nasties when they appear.  There is no way in hell to keep Tom, Dick, Jane, Harry and Alan to stop planting potential "bad plants" but an effort to control and monitor a preserved area has a chance.  

Also, the BP, kudzu, etc are weak forces compared to deep pockets and heavy equipment.

Do not forget that virgin forest in florida is very very very rare.  Almost no such thing.

Alan