Nannorhops variability?

[Ben G.]

I visited the San Antonio Botanical gardens today, where I was happy to see a couple of large Nannorhops clumps.

The first one was obvious to me from a distance

It has the silver color, brown/tan tomentum at the leaf bases, and the typical frond form. The fronds have somewhat wide leaflets with fans that open less than 180 degrees.

Then I was surprised to see this other palm labeled as Mazari:

It has similar color, but no easily visible tomentum. It has narrower leaflets and the fronds lay flatter. It's fronds also seem to span more than 180 degrees.  

This second clump was clearly different from all other saw palmetto and chamaerops around, but I would not have thought it was a Nannorrhops of it hadn't been labeled as such.

Does anyone know if there tends to be a lot of variability with these? I haven't seen enough to know. I have always seen them look like the first picture, not the second one here.

[Fusca]

There's definitely different types of Nannorrhops richiana - a green form from Afghanistan, a silver/ grey form from Afghanistan (both very cold hardy) and two very silver forms from Iran.  Below is my Nannorrhops baluchestanica from Iran:

SA Botanical Garden has mislabeled palms before - I told them about some Chamaerops that were mislabeled as Trachycarpus on one visit and they corrected them.  Was the clump in your second photo next to the Nannorrhops in the first photo (outside of the desert pavilion)?  If so it's Serenoa.  In the 5 years that I lived in SA and visited the gardens often they've only had the one Nannorrhops but it's possible that it's a new planting if it's in a different area.

[SeanK]

Looks like it thrives in the climate there.

[Ben G.]

3 hours ago, Fusca said:

Was the clump in your second photo next to the Nannorrhops in the first photo (outside of the desert pavilion)?  If so it's Serenoa.  In the 5 years that I lived in SA and visited the gardens often they've only had the one Nannorrhops but it's possible that it's a new planting if it's in a different area.

They definitely aren't right next to each other, but they aren't more than 50 feet away from each other either. They are on opposite sides of the pond in the general vicinity of the desert pavilion. I don't recall which clump was nearest the desert pavilion though.

The second clump may well be serenoa, as I am no expert with those either. I thought they tend to have fairly small fronds with wider leaflets though. I have a season pass to the garden though. So, I will try to get better looks at both next time.

[Ben G.]

3 hours ago, SeanK said:

Looks like it thrives in the climate there.

The first clump (that seemed more typical to me) was probably 10 ft at the highest point. Both of these palms were looking better than even their Sabal Mexicans, for whatever reason. This climate does seem to suit them well, as far as I can see.

[MarcusH]

8 hours ago, Ben G. said:

They definitely aren't right next to each other, but they aren't more than 50 feet away from each other either. They are on opposite sides of the pond in the general vicinity of the desert pavilion. I don't recall which clump was nearest the desert pavilion though.

The second clump may well be serenoa, as I am no expert with those either. I thought they tend to have fairly small fronds with wider leaflets though. I have a season pass to the garden though. So, I will try to get better looks at both next time.

My wife works at the Santa Rosa Children's hospital in downtown San Antonio.  They have more than a dozen of Mazari planted in front and back of the hospital.  They all have that silver grayish color . I posted those quite a few times on PT. They're amazing looking palms and seem to love our climate. 

[Fusca]

13 hours ago, Ben G. said:

They definitely aren't right next to each other, but they aren't more than 50 feet away from each other either. They are on opposite sides of the pond in the general vicinity of the desert pavilion. I don't recall which clump was nearest the desert pavilion though.

The second clump may well be serenoa, as I am no expert with those either. I thought they tend to have fairly small fronds with wider leaflets though. I have a season pass to the garden though. So, I will try to get better looks at both next time.

When I lived there there was a silver Serenoa close enough to touch the silver grey Nannorrhops.  I always thought it strange that they would plant similar colored clumping palms of different species right next to each other that aren't obviously different.  I understand that large clumps of Serenoa are difficult to dig so it probably isn't the same palm I was thinking of.  There was a large clump of Acoelorraphe wrightii in that same area that was coming back strong from Palmageddon but I understand that was removed also.

[mulungu]

I'm happy to be corrected but from what I recall @richtrav, who would be well placed to know, suggested in a previous thread that the clump on the  south side of the courtyard may be a Brahea decumbens hybrid.

 

[Ben G.]

1 hour ago, mulungu said:

I'm happy to be corrected but from what I recall @richtrav, who would be well placed to know, suggested in a previous thread that the clump on the  south side of the courtyard may be a Brahea decumbens hybrid.

 

I believe that is the answer. The location looks correct. It is labeled as a Nannorrhops, but it just had too many differences. I am familiar enough with silver Chamaerops and Serenoa that I felt confident that it wasn't either of those. If it is a Brahea, that makes more sense. I have very little experience with any Brahea other than Armata.

[Fusca]

7 hours ago, mulungu said:

I'm happy to be corrected but from what I recall @richtrav, who would be well placed to know, suggested in a previous thread that the clump on the  south side of the courtyard may be a Brahea decumbens hybrid.

 

The image Tony posted in 2008 (that is only partially viewable now) is very silver!  I'm not sure if that's the same clump that I am remembering but it seems to be in the same position.  I don't remember it being that silver.  I'm not familiar with Brahea decumbens but if its seeds are like most other Brahea (armata, brandegeei, edulis) it doesn't match seeds I have seen on this palm.  For 5 years I looked for seeds and only saw a couple seeds one time and I don't think they were fully developed.