Questions regarding Sabal spp.

[Neolitsea]

Hi, I have two questions regarding Sabal spp.;

The first question is; is there any reliable way to identify Sabal spp. when they are at strap leaf stage or just beyond it? I have sown flats of S. palmetto, S. minor, S. minor 'Louisiana', S. miamiensis, and S. mexicana (received as S. × brazoriensis, but the size of the seeds indicates otherwise), but the table I had placed them had collapsed and now they have all mixed up. I could separate S. mexicana from the others by the difference in the size of their seeds (and to a degree, width of the strap leaf), and my previous experience with S. palmetto and S. minor indicates that S. palmetto tend to produce palmate leaves much earlier than S. minors, but I have no idea about S. minor 'Louisiana' and S. miamiensis. Would I have to keep them until they bloom to identify which is which?

and the second is; can winter survival of Butia odorata be an indicator for whether Sabal spp. can overwinter without protection? The National Institute of Horticultural and Herbal Science of Korea puts both Suncheon, where I live, and Yeosu, a city located about an hour’s drive south, in zone 8b under USDA Plant Hardiness Zone System, but without protective measures, B. odorata reliably fails to overwinter in Suncheon while in Yeosu they can survive without protection (though even in Yeosu, Washingtonia robusta fails when not protected unless placed in a location with good microclimate; record low for each city are -16.2°C/2.84°F for Suncheon, observed in 2021, and -12.6°C/9.32°F for Yeosu, observed in 1977). Because of this, I am rather wary of planting out larger individuals of S. palmetto and S. uresana I have. Should I try growing them in Suncheon anyway, or would it be wise to keep them in pot till I can move to Yeosu?

I would be very grateful for any advice on these matters. Thanks in advance.

[SeanK]

I think you will need a split leaf at a minimum to distinguish between Sabals.

S.palmetto is far more cold hardy than any Butia. A fellow near me (now deceased) had a small palmetto survive 1985 outside, in the ground, unprotected. (-8°F).

[Dwarf Fan]

Sean is correct if the Butia survives the Sabal spp. wil survive in your 8b zone.

I have grown everything except the S. miamiensis and they do look different at 3 strap leaves I can give you pics of mine when the sun comes up and it will help you tell the difference. 

Louisiana is very different than mexicana when young so is brazoriensis.

[Neolitsea]

On 10/25/2024 at 9:58 AM, SeanK said:

I think you will need a split leaf at a minimum to distinguish between Sabals.

S.palmetto is far more cold hardy than any Butia. A fellow near me (now deceased) had a small palmetto survive 1985 outside, in the ground, unprotected. (-8°F).

Thank you. It's good to know that they are hardier than Butias. And -8°F/-22.2°C is impressive! I assume it was not yet trunking?

 

On 10/25/2024 at 9:10 PM, Dwarf Fan said:

Sean is correct if the Butia survives the Sabal spp. wil survive in your 8b zone.

I have grown everything except the S. miamiensis and they do look different at 3 strap leaves I can give you pics of mine when the sun comes up and it will help you tell the difference. 

Louisiana is very different than mexicana when young so is brazoriensis.

Thanks for your reply. I would be very grateful if you could provide the pictures, it would be very helpful.

 

I have several S. minor and S. palmetto at split leaf stage (photo below, S. minor on left and S. palmetto on right). I wonder if these are big enough to plant outside.

[Will]

Definitely big enough. With Sabals you could also even plant strap leaves. At that size you can completely mulch them without problems. 

[SeanK]

9 hours ago, Neolitsea said:

Thank you. It's good to know that they are hardier than Butias. And -8°F/-22.2°C is impressive! I assume it was not yet trunking?

 

Thanks for your reply. I would be very grateful if you could provide the pictures, it would be very helpful.

 

I have several S. minor and S. palmetto at split leaf stage (photo below, S. minor on left and S. palmetto on right). I wonder if these are big enough to plant outside.

The bud was at or below ground level, about 3-ft from the south facing wall of the house.