Butia eriospatha x Jubaea are fruiting

[Alberto]

Two of the three Butia eriospatha x Jubaea chilensis that my cousin was growing in her garden are fruiting. One of my palms also produced a few fruits last year, but not so many as this.  The palms I grow at home grow in an acid sandy soil and strangely grew somewhat fatter trunks and longer leaves. Her palms grow in the same town, but in deep "latossolo vermelho" , a kind of soil I tend to prefer over mine, because generally it produces good crops. The fruits are more fibrous than pure B. eriospatha and a bit less juicy, also the fruit flesh is detached from the seed (like the seed is smaller than the fruit flesh...) tending to form " gapes" in the fruit. 

 

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

Wow those are some fat trunked beauties. Strange that the sandy soil grows fatter trunks. Also have never heard of fruit being detached from the seed itself. Do you think the seed is viable?

[Alberto]

1 hour ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

Wow those are some fat trunked beauties. Strange that the sandy soil grows fatter trunks. Also have never heard of fruit being detached from the seed itself. Do you think the seed is viable?

I just crack one of the seeds.  Butia eriospatha seeds can have seeds of this size but generally contains 2 or 3 endosperms ( nuts) . This seeds are formed by one big endosperm, like a mini coconut. I ate the delicious nut and yep! I found a little embryo (red) at one of the seed's pores (blue)

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

I have never seen the fresh seed of Jubaea, with fruit still on, but just found a video of some and it appeared the fruit on that Jubaea also was like the seed on your cousins palm, as it too looked to be a little loose from the nut itself. So I guess that and the one endosperm means Jubaea characteristics dominate in the B. eriospatha X Jubaea seed makeup? Do you agree?

[Scott W]

I've had a similar observation recently with seed from a Jubaea x butia, with the seed being round like a Jubaea and the endosperm being one large nut, similar to a coconut.   Don't recall flesh separation, but they were very easy to clean and were not as fibrous as a Butia.

[Alberto]

9 hours ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

I have never seen the fresh seed of Jubaea, with fruit still on, but just found a video of some and it appeared the fruit on that Jubaea also was like the seed on your cousins palm, as it too looked to be a little loose from the nut itself. So I guess that and the one endosperm means Jubaea characteristics dominate in the B. eriospatha X Jubaea seed makeup? Do you agree?

Exactly. A lot of characteristics I do not recognize from my well known Butia eriospatha fruits and seeds.

[Alberto]

5 minutes ago, Scott W said:

I've had a similar observation recently with seed from a Jubaea x butia, with the seed being round like a Jubaea and the endosperm being one large nut, similar to a coconut.   Don't recall flesh separation, but they were very easy to clean and were not as fibrous as a Butia.

In fact my B.eriospatha ( which I used to make this hybrid years ago) are from a more selected strain with bigger fruits and practically no fiber, juicy and easily cleaned seeds when the fruit is eaten.  "Wild" B. eriospatha has fibrous fruits and are also smaller.

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

10 minutes ago, Scott W said:

I've had a similar observation recently with seed from a Jubaea x butia, with the seed being round like a Jubaea and the endosperm being one large nut, similar to a coconut.   Don't recall flesh separation, but they were very easy to clean and were not as fibrous as a Butia.

So it seems the Jubaea dominates at least the seed makeup whether it is the pollen donor or seed bearer.

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

21 minutes ago, Alberto said:

In fact my B.eriospatha ( which I used to make this hybrid years ago) are from a more selected strain with bigger fruits and practically no fiber, juicy and easily cleaned seeds when the fruit is eaten.  "Wild" B. eriospatha has fibrous fruits and are also smaller.

Based on where you collected your B.eriospatha "more selected strain" seed, to do your original cross, do you think that original strain was just a B. eriospatha variation or could it have been an older generation natural cross with Jubaea?

[Alberto]

7 minutes ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

Based on where you collected your B.eriospatha "more selected strain" seed, to do your original cross, do you think that original strain was just a B. eriospatha variation or could it have been an older generation  cross with Jubaea?

No, it is a " garden selected strain" with bigger and juicier fruits.... B.eriospatha is, besides S.romanzoffiana,  one of the most cultivated palms in the southern states of Paraná, Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul.  It also has fatter trunks than wild B. eriospatha. The mother plants of this hybrid were offspring of palms my mother bought, many years ago.... ( there are not old Jubaeas in cultivation in southern Brazil, at least, I' ve never seen one)

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

16 minutes ago, Alberto said:

No, it is a " garden selected strain" with bigger and juicier fruits.... B.eriospatha is, besides S.romanzoffiana,  one of the most cultivated palms in the southern states of Paraná, Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul.  It also has fatter trunks than wild B. eriospatha. The mother plants of this hybrid were offspring of palms my mother bought, many years ago....

So these garden selected strains (speaking of both B. eriospatha and S. romanzoffiana too) were selected for their fruit quality by different generations of peoples or by you and your family? And do they have regional names to distinguish the fruit or is it a loose collection of good fruit bearers? 

[Alberto]

This are some of the pure B.eriospatha I used to make this hybrid. Pollen came from Dick Douglas Jubaeas

[Alberto]

This are two of my BxJ that I planted at my place. The first one has a " Jubaea trunk". It' s gigantic!

[Alberto]

This was my first post about this hybrid:   

 

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

Beautiful palms! Seeing the moss growing on the B.eriospatha, in your previous post then I assume the hybrids can easily deal with humidity as opposed to pure Jubaea. That is a huge trunked BxJ !

[Alberto]

24 minutes ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

Beautiful palms! Seeing the moss growing on the B.eriospatha, in your previous post then I assume the hybrids can easily deal with humidity as opposed to pure Jubaea. That is a huge trunked BxJ !

Yes. Butia eriospatha grows in a climate with year round rain. Here 1600 mm/ year.

[Alberto]

2 hours ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

 And do they have regional names to distinguish the fruit or is it a loose collection of good fruit bearers? 

No, they haven' t variety names. As you said: a " loose collection of good fruit bearers"

[Scott W]

23 hours ago, Alberto said:

I just crack one of the seeds.  Butia eriospatha seeds can have seeds of this size but generally contains 2 or 3 endosperms ( nuts) . This seeds are formed by one big endosperm, like a mini coconut. I ate the delicious nut and yep! I found a little embryo (red) at one of the seed's pores (blue)

 

So Alberto, now for the million dollar question....what pollinated it?  Looks like the other two hybrids are flowering as well?  Are any other Butia or Syagrus flowering nearby?

[Banana Belt]

On 10/16/2024 at 10:32 AM, Alberto said:

The palms I grow at home grow in an acid sandy soil

That is exactly the same type soil my property has, palms grow nicely.   Agaricus campestris and Agaricus bitorquis are growing in the horse pasture next door, simply delicious and amazing.

[Alberto]

On 10/17/2024 at 8:09 PM, Scott W said:

So Alberto, now for the million dollar question....what pollinated it?  Looks like the other two hybrids are flowering as well?  Are any other Butia or Syagrus flowering nearby?

Good question! There are 3 BxJ planted together. There is a Butia eriospatha in the same garden, +- 20 m from this palms but it had not any inflorescence at the same time the BxJ were flowering. There are also +- 10 jerivás ( Syagrus romanzoffiana) nearby. Open question: auto pollination, pollination by a B. eriospatha in the neighborhood, or the Syagrus romanz.? 

[Scott W]

15 hours ago, Alberto said:

Good question! There are 3 BxJ planted together. There is a Butia eriospatha in the same garden, +- 20 m from this palms but it had not any inflorescence at the same time the BxJ were flowering. There are also +- 10 jerivás ( Syagrus romanzoffiana) nearby. Open question: auto pollination, pollination by a B. eriospatha in the neighborhood, or the Syagrus romanz.? 

 

It's been stated that both crosses of Jubaea and butia are self sterile, but others have found that some are fertile.  However, most growers only have one hybrid Jubautia in their collection.  

So I share a theory with another....could the hybrids be back crossing each other?  I believe the odds of this are quite possible,  especially considering the proximity they are to each other.  Certainly warrants further experimentation to prove the theory...

Thoughts?

[Alberto]

8 hours ago, Scott W said:

 

It's been stated that both crosses of Jubaea and butia are self sterile, but others have found that some are fertile.  However, most growers only have one hybrid Jubautia in their collection.  

So I share a theory with another....could the hybrids be back crossing each other?  I believe the odds of this are quite possible,  especially considering the proximity they are to each other.  Certainly warrants further experimentation to prove the theory...

Thoughts?

I remember that Patric told me that Dick Dougla's famous Butia odorata x Jubaea wasn't able to pollinate itself (steril pollen). This being hybrids of another butia species and also 3 different plants....maybe another story.

[Banana Belt]

On 10/19/2024 at 7:04 PM, Alberto said:

I remember that Patric told me that Dick Dougla's famous Butia odorata x Jubaea wasn't able to pollinate itself (steril pollen). This being hybrids of another butia species and also 3 different plants....maybe another story.

I have question, in South America where these palms are native how often and in what area are natural hybrids present?  Butia has many different varieties, are these hybrids or distinct?

As more and more people in North America are planting various palms, I wonder how much naturalization and hybridization is occurring.

[Alberto]

29 minutes ago, Banana Belt said:

I have question, in South America where these palms are native how often and in what area are natural hybrids present?  Butia has many different varieties, are these hybrids or distinct?

As more and more people in North America are planting various palms, I wonder how much naturalization and hybridization is occurring.

When I travel through the tableland regions in the states of Paraná and Santa Catarina, where Butia eriospatha is native ( not so common), most of this regions also have in bigger quantities , wild "jerivá" (tableland varieties of Syagrus romanzoffiana) and frequently I see xButyagrus paranaensis, sometimes cultivated and some in semi wild conditions. All this are natural hybrids and not made by gardeners. They really are very atractive and some are really magnificent. When in cultivation they are probably selected about volunteers. I also remember the botanist Kelen Soares photographing hybrids of Butia lallemantii x Syagrus romazoffiana in the state Rio Grande do Sul.

[Banana Belt]

20 hours ago, Alberto said:

When I travel through the tableland regions in the states of Paraná and Santa Catarina, where Butia eriospatha is native ( not so common), most of this regions also have in bigger quantities , wild "jerivá" (tableland varieties of Syagrus romanzoffiana) and frequently I see xButyagrus paranaensis, sometimes cultivated and some in semi wild conditions. All this are natural hybrids and not made by gardeners. They really are very atractive and some are really magnificent. When in cultivation they are probably selected about volunteers. I also remember the botanist Kelen Soares photographing hybrids of Butia lallemantii x Syagrus romazoffiana in the state Rio Grande do Sul.

Thank you very much for the reply.  I have got to go to Southern South America and see the flora, mountains, plains and of course the people.  So many plants from South America do so well in North America especially along the west Coast, that I am certain others would do well also. 

Fourty years ago I planted two Jubaea in the ground on my property.  I watched these Jubaea grow year by year through all their different stages, from baby, child, teenager and now finally adults.  It took about 30 years for a trunk to begin and about 10 years of flowering before the first fruit began to set.  This year for the first time fruit showed up, I don't know why it took so long but my neighbor's Butia started flowering first time this year.  So I wonder if the Jubaea got pollinated by the Butia.

[Alberto]

I cleaned all the seeds and found that a few had yellow round marks on the seeds. I opened one to investigate and take a look inside but found all was ok. The seeds are just the same as from a pure Jubaea ( little coconut) and with thicker endocarpus as that of Butia eriospatha.