I have recently begun growing Jubaea and Butia palms from seed and I have a few questions.

Can Jubaea chilensis and its hybrids be grown in part to dappled shade, like an understory plant or on the edge of a woodland?

Can the fresh seeds of Jubaea chilensis and its hybrids be dried and stored over winter?

Does anyone have other related advice to give me, germination, fertilizing, etc?

@amh

For germinating Jubaea chilensis:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/47258-jubaea-chilensis-seedgermination-question/

4 hours ago, amh said:

Can the fresh seeds of Jubaea chilensis and its hybrids be dried and stored over winter?

I am no expert, but I am getting some J. chilensis seeds soon.

Apparently, the primary way the species is dispersed in Chile is by little animals called degus. The common degu takes the seeds and buries them thither and yon, and sometimes forgets where everything is cached. 

The climate for the areas where the Jubaea grow is cool and wet; I don't know if drying out the seed would help the already slow germination.

Jubaea seed can be stored dry for months., even a year plus.  I have access to loads of seed in Santa Barbara and I like to leave them to dry until they rattle and then crack them . If you try to crack them when they are fresh you will damage many of them and they will mold. Or you just place them about half buried in 50/50 coir and perlite when they are fresh but it can take awhile to germinate . When you crack them they are pretty fast . You need to use hydrogen peroxide to help control mold . I use 80F bottomheat   I use the same 50/50 mix to pot up the germinators . After they are up you can use dilluted  fish fertilizer . I think the young plants kinda like a little shade but an adult tree likes lots of sun.  Because they can take years in a pot before they need to be planted out your shady area will probably be fine. 
 

2 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

@amh

For germinating Jubaea chilensis:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/47258-jubaea-chilensis-seedgermination-question/

Thank you for the link, I didn't know about the heat issue, which explains why a batch of jubutia F1 seeds nearly all failed for me last year. Now I'm worried about a batch of F3 seeds that sat in my mailbox for a few hours.

1 hour ago, tarnado said:

I am no expert, but I am getting some J. chilensis seeds soon.

Apparently, the primary way the species is dispersed in Chile is by little animals called degus. The common degu takes the seeds and buries them thither and yon, and sometimes forgets where everything is cached. 

The climate for the areas where the Jubaea grow is cool and wet; I don't know if drying out the seed would help the already slow germination.

I guess the degu fills the niche of our north american squirrels.

I've had a good germination rate on a batch of pure Jubaea chilensis that I bought last year. The seeds rattled a bit and I just soaked them in water for a few days and surface sowed in a community pot, I think the germination is close to 80%, but the seeds have germinated randomly over the last year.

28 minutes ago, bruce Steele said:

Jubaea seed can be stored dry for months., even a year plus.  I have access to loads of seed in Santa Barbara and I like to leave them to dry until they rattle and then crack them . If you try to crack them when they are fresh you will damage many of them and they will mold. Or you just place them about half buried in 50/50 coir and perlite when they are fresh but it can take awhile to germinate . When you crack them they are pretty fast . You need to use hydrogen peroxide to help control mold . I use 80F bottomheat   I use the same 50/50 mix to pot up the germinators . After they are up you can use dilluted  fish fertilizer . I think the young plants kinda like a little shade but an adult tree likes lots of sun.  Because they can take years in a pot before they need to be planted out your shady area will probably be fine. 
 

I have not tried the cracking method, but my climate is just humid enough where I would be worried about mold. My main worry about storage is that I have a bunch of hybrid seeds right now and my first freeze will be the last week of October or the second week of November. I do not want to have to worry about rot because it is too cold or run the risk of cooking the seeds on a heat mat.

I have been considering a planting along a southern edge of a forest or intermixed with Araucarias, obviously the planting will be years away, so I am at the beginning stages of planing.

 

Thank you to everyone for the input so far.

On 9/20/2024 at 12:40 AM, amh said:

surface sowed in a community pot, I think the germination is close to 80%, but the

In a community pot with what other treatments? Did you leave out over the winter, did you have them inside and have bottom heat, have them inside with no bottom heat - ?

 

On 9/20/2024 at 12:40 AM, amh said:

have not tried the cracking method, but my climate is just humid enough where I would be worried about mold.

I also live in a climate with a long, cool, wet winter - and I also just got some F3 seeds from @SailorBold ....... so I am tempted to try germinating about half right now, and then just leaving another half to chill (by which, I mean 'hang out dry') for the next six months or so rather than try to keep any baby sprouts happy through the Long Dark. I am feeling a bit STRESSED about it. Good luck!

 

On 9/20/2024 at 12:40 AM, amh said:

I have been considering a planting along a southern edge of a forest or intermixed with Araucarias,

 Ha ha! I love the idea of intermixing Jubaea or Jubaea hybrids with Auricaria! You sound lucky to have such a plot of land you can have such manic ideas! That would be awesome. Around here, some enterprising people sold Auricaria seedlings in the 1920's; they are an unusual-but-common-enough landmark tree that make a real statement!

@amh @tarnado I would assume that the JxB F3 seeds y'all got can be germinated like they're Jubaea.  Do the F3 seeds resemble Jubaea?  I never saw photos of the seeds, just the fruits.

50 minutes ago, Fusca said:

@amh @tarnado I would assume that the JxB F3 seeds y'all got can be germinated like they're Jubaea.  Do the F3 seeds resemble Jubaea?  I never saw photos of the seeds, just the fruits.

I have both F3 and F4 seeds right now, and they appear to be large oval(not quite football shaped) butia seeds. I think the original mother species may affect the seed shapes, but I do not know. 

There is variation in seed size and shape shown on the palmpedia page.

https://palmpedia.net/wiki/Butia_x_Jubaea

4 hours ago, tarnado said:

In a community pot with what other treatments? Did you leave out over the winter, did you have them inside and have bottom heat, have them inside with no bottom heat - ?

 

I also live in a climate with a long, cool, wet winter - and I also just got some F3 seeds from @SailorBold ....... so I am tempted to try germinating about half right now, and then just leaving another half to chill (by which, I mean 'hang out dry') for the next six months or so rather than try to keep any baby sprouts happy through the Long Dark. I am feeling a bit STRESSED about it. Good luck!

 

 Ha ha! I love the idea of intermixing Jubaea or Jubaea hybrids with Auricaria! You sound lucky to have such a plot of land you can have such manic ideas! That would be awesome. Around here, some enterprising people sold Auricaria seedlings in the 1920's; they are an unusual-but-common-enough landmark tree that make a real statement!

I removed the seeds from the community pot when the outside temperatures were consistently below 70F. I just let the seeds dry in storage until spring and then soaked them in water until they quit rattling.

I purchased some seeds from @SailorBold as well and I have the same plans for my seed. I get stressed about these things too, because when you live outside of California, your ability to get Jubaea and Jubaea hybrid seeds is very limited, even in the internet age.

I have just over an acre at about 1200ft, basically 1/2 forested and 1/2 prairie. My plans are to make a bunch of small interconnected gardens, and a salute to south american plants is in the plans( Araucaria angustifolia, Araucaria araucana, Jubaea chilensis, jubutia, Butia odorata, Ugni molinae, and anything else I can find that will survive in Texas). So far, both Araucaria araucana and Ugni molinae are handling my environment much better than I had anticipated.

I've seen the pictures of the PNW Araucaria araucana trees, I think they work very well in the landscape. I would like to see an attempt to grow the species from the southern cone all the way to Alaska, maybe even coastal Kodiak island. A similar effort could be made for Araucaria angustifolia on the Atlantic and gulf coast.

You might find answers to many of your questions by using the search feature on this site. There are years worth of information available with a bit of searching about this and almost any other palm. 

Tim

I want you to be successful! here is some information from an old post about butia germination.. I really think the key is going to be soaking them for a longer period of time before sowing.. moreso for the funky hybrid seeds where they may be thicker walled..etc.. possibly more difficult to germinate. Bottom heat and warm water during soak may be important as well..

15 hours ago, SailorBold said:

warm water during soak may

Hmmmmmmm having heard of the importance of diurnal temperature fluctuation for Jubaea germination, I put mine seeds to soak in rainwater *outside* for a few days. It's cooler, between 50 and 70 degrees F (who am I kidding, maybe the upper 60s)

20 hours ago, amh said:

I have both F3 and F4 seeds right now, and they appear to be large oval(not quite football shaped) butia seeds. I think the original mother species may affect the seed shapes, but I do not know. 

There is variation in seed size and shape shown on the palmpedia page.

https://palmpedia.net/wiki/Butia_x_Jubaea

This link is interesting.  I was under the impression that F2 seeds from an F1 hybrid palm would resemble the seeds from the mother parent.  But photos of the seeds in this link from an F1 BxJ look more like seeds from the pollen doner (Jubaea) since the mother palm is typically listed first (Butia).  I don't know but seed shape may vary in higher order generations.  I was aware that BxJ were self fertile but never heard the same about JxB until reading about @SailorBold's palm - assuming that he was given the correct ID of his palm.

On 9/24/2024 at 1:50 PM, Fusca said:

This link is interesting.  I was under the impression that F2 seeds from an F1 hybrid palm would resemble the seeds from the mother parent.  But photos of the seeds in this link from an F1 BxJ look more like seeds from the pollen doner (Jubaea) since the mother palm is typically listed first (Butia).  I don't know but seed shape may vary in higher order generations.  I was aware that BxJ were self fertile but never heard the same about JxB until reading about @SailorBold's palm - assuming that he was given the correct ID of his palm.

There are two different pictures of seeds on the palmpedia page, one batch look like large Butia seeds, while another looks similar to a Jubaea seed.

I'll have to get a photograph of the F3 and F4 seeds together, but they more closely resemble Butia seeds with each generation, just larger.

It will be fun to see what happens with these cold hardy hybrids. I recently found a subzero surviving Butia in my neighborhood, so apparently the Butias are much more cold hardy than anticipated.

First picture is seeds of F2 Jubaea x butia compared to pure Butia.  F2 seed is large and mostly round like a Jubaea.

And this pic compares the F2 Butia x Jubaea seed (on the right) purchased from Neil on Facebook with the F2 Jubaea x butia seed.   The majority of the F2 BxJ seed has a more oval shape and were slightly smaller.

On 9/19/2024 at 1:45 PM, amh said:

Can Jubaea chilensis and its hybrids be grown in part to dappled shade, like an understory plant or on the edge of a woodland?

I don't know about the hybrids but Jubaea want full sun with high light requirements.  The best climates for these palms are along the Pacific Coast California to Oregon, where they don't need watering or cold protection during winter.  Inland areas with high summer heat, jubaea suffer a little and need regular watering and may need cold protection when young.

Jubaea are slow growing when young while at same time need care such as watering and cold protection during severe freezes.  The following graph shows growth rate of Jubaea planted from seed on the Southern Oregon coast, where they only needed some attention when young, watering during dry season and fertilizer.  When Jubaea reach full maturity 40 years they are pretty tough and don't need much of anything, but it can take 20 years or more before they start early adult growth where a trunk begins to form and a decade more before they get tough.

The challenge in growing Jubaea in Central Texas would be cold winters when the palms are young.  They probably will need protection during deep freezes.  I would expect the Hybrids to have similar requirements.  For a person to enjoy planting and growing a Jubaea, do it when your young and live a long and prosperous life.

2 hours ago, Scott W said:

First picture is seeds of F2 Jubaea x butia compared to pure Butia.  F2 seed is large and mostly round like a Jubaea.

And this pic compares the F2 Butia x Jubaea seed (on the right) purchased from Neil on Facebook with the F2 Jubaea x butia seed.   The majority of the F2 BxJ seed has a more oval shape and were slightly smaller.

Thanks for posting @Scott W - those seeds look just as I would expect.

3 hours ago, amh said:

There are two different pictures of seeds on the palmpedia page, one batch look like large Butia seeds, while another looks similar to a Jubaea seed.

I'll have to get a photograph of the F3 and F4 seeds together, but they more closely resemble Butia seeds with each generation, just larger.

It will be fun to see what happens with these cold hardy hybrids. I recently found a subzero surviving Butia in my neighborhood, so apparently the Butias are much more cold hardy than anticipated.

There's definitely inconsistencies in that Palmpedia page.  Second photo references JxB while the title of the page is for BxJ.  That would explain the seed size if the hybrid seeds are from JxB.  To me the first seed photo with the 4 large seeds in the hand resemble Jubaea and the second photo shows one JxB seed (same size as the other 4 but referenced as BxJ) next to a Butia odorata seed.  Butia odorata seeds can vary in size somewhat but I've never seen any as large as a Jubaea.  I would expect BxJ seeds to resemble that Butia odorata seed.

On 9/26/2024 at 7:10 PM, Banana Belt said:

I don't know about the hybrids but Jubaea want full sun with high light requirements.  The best climates for these palms are along the Pacific Coast California to Oregon, where they don't need watering or cold protection during winter.  Inland areas with high summer heat, jubaea suffer a little and need regular watering and may need cold protection when young.

Jubaea are slow growing when young while at same time need care such as watering and cold protection during severe freezes.  The following graph shows growth rate of Jubaea planted from seed on the Southern Oregon coast, where they only needed some attention when young, watering during dry season and fertilizer.  When Jubaea reach full maturity 40 years they are pretty tough and don't need much of anything, but it can take 20 years or more before they start early adult growth where a trunk begins to form and a decade more before they get tough.

The challenge in growing Jubaea in Central Texas would be cold winters when the palms are young.  They probably will need protection during deep freezes.  I would expect the Hybrids to have similar requirements.  For a person to enjoy planting and growing a Jubaea, do it when your young and live a long and prosperous life.

I am hoping that a longer growing season will help accelerate the growth rate, a bit, but I am realistic. I do worry about the cold, but the plants will be a minimum of 5 years old at planting. My daytime temperatures can get high in the summers, but the night time temps will rang between 65F and 75F. Every palm except Sabal minor and Sabal mexicana are experimental in my area.

@amh Your plans sound good.  Climate, Temperatures ect. are what they are and palms will just have to adapt.  I have heard of Jubaea growing in high deserts of Chile, so if they can grow there, Central Texas should be fine.  Even Germany has some old Jubaea.