Beccariophoenix alfredii. Is this palm also slow for you?

[Alberto]

I have in total 4 B.alfreddi planted out in my garden in Carambeí, st. Paraná 1030 m altitude)( and other 3 in Tibagi- PR) My climate is humid year-round ( 1600 mm/ year) with a fresh to cold winter and warm summers , but generally with not really hot days. Generally around 27⁰C, with some hot days like 31-32⁰C.  My palms are about 16 years old ( from seed). I really enjoy the big and wide fronds with the long and drooping leaflets. If I compare to a lot of other palm species, I think the trunks are slow growing. Is this normal or maybe a lack of "real" heat or something else? 

[flplantguy]

I feel like my little one is slow but its also newly planted so i cant say yet. I have been told many fronds but slow height makes for an appearance of slow growth but idk yet.

[sonoranfans]

There are a number of factors that can slow growth.  With 1600mm rain as stated, rain is not one of them.  Looks like you also have plenty of sun on them.   It doesnt look like the growing season is very long and that may be why they are a little slow.  SOil temps at 65F or higher mean lots of soil microbe activity.  Mine grow pretty well, about same age as yours, but we have almost 10 months a year with soil temps above 65F.  By mulching around the base a bit you can extend the warm season soil temps a bit.  Mulching will also increase root density as it gives a more consistent dry cycle.  Microbes in mulch generate heat and the mulch is an insulator overnight.  

[FlaPalmLover]

I planted out one in April that I bought as a 25 gallon (it was oversized for a 25 gallon pot) and its newest frond has only grown around 15-18 inches in that time. I don't know if the roots are spreading and getting accustomed to its new location or what, but it feels like it's growing at a glacial pace. My copernicia fallaensis that I planted two weeks ago has been growing much faster so far.

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

Those are beautiful B. alfredii Alberto! I think palms look best at that size and up to when one can just walk beneath the fronds so those are perfect to me. I can not help with in ground ones but I have tried two in pots and both spear pulled. One in the middle of summer and one that stayed in an unheated greenhouse enclosure that got down to  the high 20's degrees F one night and stayed well above freezing the rest of the winter. There was no air movement except the wind blowing the plastic and forcing air inside to stir a little. There was also no frost so it made me think they are a little touchy about their needs. Mine also were not speedy growers.

[Bkue]

Beautiful but yes too slow for me. I have posted before and got crucified. If I was younger and at my forever home I would do it. Love them but don’t want to wait. 

[Merlyn]

I would say "Slow to gain trunk diameter and trunk height, but fairly quick to gain overall height and span."  That's a good and a bad thing, I guess.  I just cut down a bunch of Queens with 10-15' of trunk after only 6 years from a 7g pot.  They were rapidly becoming telephone poles with potential hurricane and lightning storm risk.  On the other hand I'd like to plant stuff *under* the Alfredii I planted from 3g-7g ~6 years ago.  The slow rate of growing upwards has been a bit frustrating.  But here's 6 years of growth, planted in June 2018:

This one is slightly slower growing than the other 4 that I planted at the same time, but it's fairly close.  Here it is today from about the same angle.  If I cleaned off the lowest boots it is probably just barely trunking after 6 years:

[Harry’s Palms]

These are beautiful palms. Very large spread , so space needed to look their best. I would think that the shorter trunk and slow to gain height is a plus. Harry

[Alberto]

  On 8/28/2024 at 5:10 AM, Bkue said:

Beautiful but yes too slow for me. I have posted before and got crucified. If I was younger and at my forever home I would do it. Love them but don’t want to wait. 

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Crucified? I' ve been spared, so far... 😀

[Alberto]

  On 8/28/2024 at 1:19 PM, Merlyn said:

I would say "Slow to gain trunk diameter and trunk height, but fairly quick to gain overall height and span."  That's a good and a bad thing, I guess.  I just cut down a bunch of Queens with 10-15' of trunk after only 6 years from a 7g pot.  They were rapidly becoming telephone poles with potential hurricane and lightning storm risk.  On the other hand I'd like to plant stuff *under* the Alfredii I planted from 3g-7g ~6 years ago.  The slow rate of growing upwards has been a bit frustrating.  But here's 6 years of growth, planted in June 2018:

This one is slightly slower growing than the other 4 that I planted at the same time, but it's fairly close.  Here it is today from about the same angle.  If I cleaned off the lowest boots it is probably just barely trunking after 6 years:

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Wow, a very nice specimen! If this is the growth of 6 years, I think your grew faster than mine here. Your location in Orlando is certainly a lot warmer and this is the difference.

[Merlyn]

  On 8/28/2024 at 3:07 PM, Alberto said:

Wow, a very nice specimen! If this is the growth of 6 years, I think your grew faster than mine here. Your location in Orlando is certainly a lot warmer and this is the difference.

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Yeah, I think the average winter lows are not too different here, but typically 50ish for only December, January and February.  Otherwise the lows are generally around 70-75ish with normal daily highs around 90-95 for May thru October.  That's probably 15 or so degrees warmer in the summer months. 

I'll also mention that the fastest growing of the 5 is about 10 feet downhill from a gutter downspout, so it gets huge amounts of water from our daily afternoon thunderstorms.  The smallest of the 5 I planted too close to the house initially, so I moved it about 8 months later...when I realized that 8' from the house was a HORRIBLE idea. 

[Harry’s Palms]

With large palms , it is sometimes hard to determine adequate distance. This is especially true with an unfamiliar genus or species. A large presence is cool in the right location , as they say…hindsight is always 20-20! . @Merlyn at least you were able to move it. Harry

[FlaPalmLover]

  On 8/28/2024 at 4:12 PM, Merlyn said:

Yeah, I think the average winter lows are not too different here, but typically 50ish for only December, January and February.  Otherwise the lows are generally around 70-75ish with normal daily highs around 90-95 for May thru October.  That's probably 15 or so degrees warmer in the summer months. 

I'll also mention that the fastest growing of the 5 is about 10 feet downhill from a gutter downspout, so it gets huge amounts of water from our daily afternoon thunderstorms.  The smallest of the 5 I planted too close to the house initially, so I moved it about 8 months later...when I realized that 8' from the house was a HORRIBLE idea. 

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One thing that I think is safe to say is that alfies love water. Mine always seems to show growth when a good rain comes through. It sounds like yours has the same tendency. 

[palmfriend]

Hi,

here some images taken of one of mine two years ago and right now...

Here one - oh no - two of mine when planted out exactly two years ago. I did not dare to separate them, they were probably

for four years together in the same (big) pot - the root mass was already one big clump.

Here is how they look at the moment:

Compared with my other palms, I can not say that they are slow - rather the opposite. They adopted well to our original soil,

withstood the 'mandatory' rhinoceros beetle attack quite well and sped up significantly during the last months. They are a 

pure joy - glad to have them.

 

Lars 

 

[Alberto]

No doubt alfies make an appearance in no time, the big and wide fronds with the drooping leaflets... The palm is showy from an early age. But the growth of the trunk, height , that is what I was referring to.

[sonoranfans]

  On 8/29/2024 at 9:07 AM, Alberto said:

No doubt alfies make an appearance in no time, the big and wide fronds with the drooping leaflets... The palm is showy from an early age. But the growth of the trunk, height , that is what I was referring to.

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I can agree that putting on trunk height is not fast.  The leaf length growth was somewhat fast for me but that trunk height.  Seems like the leaves grow moderately to 20' long as the palm approaches trunking, then a slower trunk growth after that.      

[Bkue]

  On 8/29/2024 at 7:46 AM, palmfriend said:

Hi,

here some images taken of one of mine two years ago and right now...

Here one - oh no - two of mine when planted out exactly two years ago. I did not dare to separate them, they were probably

for four years together in the same (big) pot - the root mass was already one big clump.

Here is how they look at the moment:

Compared with my other palms, I can not say that they are slow - rather the opposite. They adopted well to our original soil,

withstood the 'mandatory' rhinoceros beetle attack quite well and sped up significantly during the last months. They are a 

pure joy - glad to have them.

 

Lars 

 

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Love it! That said, how can anyone argue about the slow growth? Crazy. That’s a 10yr minimum expectation and a centerpiece when right. There is no bashing, I love it. Wish I had a big one I don’t have 10yrs to invest to get an appreciable size. 

[palmfriend]

  On 8/29/2024 at 9:07 AM, Alberto said:

No doubt alfies make an appearance in no time, the big and wide fronds with the drooping leaflets... The palm is showy from an early age. But the growth of the trunk, height , that is what I was referring to.

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Alberto,

I am sorry, I haven't noticed your reference to the trunk's height. Next time I will read your text more carefully.

 

Lars

 

[Merlyn]

  On 8/30/2024 at 2:59 AM, Bkue said:

Love it! That said, how can anyone argue about the slow growth? Crazy. That’s a 10yr minimum expectation and a centerpiece when right. There is no bashing, I love it. Wish I had a big one I don’t have 10yrs to invest to get an appreciable size. 

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If you do want a big Alfie, I'd plan on going to MB Palms' open house sale next spring.  It's a couple of weeks after the Leu Gardens sale.  The 2023 price list had 25g for $200, 45g for $300 and 100g for $400.  I wasn't in the market for more, but I recall them being pretty big palms!

[sonoranfans]

In 13 years from a 3 gallon strap leaf just going pinnate, my largest alfie has grown about 7' of trunk including the dead leafbases.  Here it is with 5' of the trunk clear.  I let leaf bases fall off, no removal.  I'm happy to know its self cleaning as it matures.   Dont be mistaken these are large trunked, wide crown palms when mature, larger than bismarckia.  There are plenty of roots 20' from the trunk of this palm.  Mine has been exposed to (2) cat one hurricanes, no tilting.   So 7 feet of trunk in 13 years pales to my other palms:  Bismarckia(>20' trunk growth), Royals(est 20-23' trunk growth), sabal causiarum (20'+ trunk growth), Livistona decora(>20' trunk growth).  My largest alfie is 30' or perhaps a couple feet more but that trunk is just 7 feet 

 

[FlaPalmLover]

  On 8/30/2024 at 2:40 PM, sonoranfans said:

In 13 years from a 3 gallon strap leaf just going pinnate, my largest alfie has grown about 7' of trunk including the dead leafbases.  Here it is with 5' of the trunk clear.  I let leaf bases fall off, no removal.  I'm happy to know its self cleaning as it matures.   Dont be mistaken these are large trunked, wide crown palms when mature, larger than bismarckia.  There are plenty of roots 20' from the trunk of this palm.  Mine has been exposed to (2) cat one hurricanes, no tilting.   So 7 feet of trunk in 13 years pales to my other palms:  Bismarckia(>20' trunk growth), Royals(est 20-23' trunk growth), sabal causiarum (20'+ trunk growth), Livistona decora(>20' trunk growth).  My largest alfie is 30' or perhaps a couple feet more but that trunk is just 7 feet 

 

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If you look at one from that angle, the old leaf bases actually look more similar to those of a queen palm than a coconut. My iPhone actually identified one of the bigger ones at MB Palms as a queen palm this spring. 😂

[RiverCityRichard]

  On 8/30/2024 at 1:37 PM, Merlyn said:

If you do want a big Alfie, I'd plan on going to MB Palms' open house sale next spring.  It's a couple of weeks after the Leu Gardens sale.  The 2023 price list had 25g for $200, 45g for $300 and 100g for $400.  I wasn't in the market for more, but I recall them being pretty big palms!

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Yes, I got a 25g from MB for $150 this year, that was already 9-10ft tall. 

[flplantguy]

So less than half the height gain of faster palms and an extensive root system. Good thing they are spectacular!  I wonder if they outcompete other plants with those roots too?

[Alberto]

  On 8/29/2024 at 2:13 PM, sonoranfans said:

I can agree that putting on trunk height is not fast.  The leaf length growth was somewhat fast for me but that trunk height.  Seems like the leaves grow moderately to 20' long as the palm approaches trunking, then a slower trunk growth after that.      

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My palms are a bit older then yours but no one have even lost one of the older boots to show some clean trunk.  The alfredi's are native on the High Plateau of Madagascar at approximately 20° S. at elevation of 1,050 m (3,440 ft) . The place is located in Central Madagacar, so the summers are probably warmer than my climate here. (25⁰ South, 1030 m altitude) They like warmer climates, that' s my conclusion. ( some habitat pics that I drooled  when I first saw them in the past. So similar to some places here)

[sonoranfans]

  On 8/30/2024 at 8:04 PM, FlaPalmLover said:

If you look at one from that angle, the old leaf bases actually look more similar to those of a queen palm than a coconut. My iPhone actually identified one of the bigger ones at MB Palms as a queen palm this spring. 😂

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BA leaf bases are much bigger than queens, a much heavier leaf.  App ID's are pretty poor at matching plants that are not in their library.   My sister tried identifying my palms no luck except bismarckia and cuban copernicias. I studied pattern recognition in grad school with AI and statistics.  Today the algorithms are not very different and the same basic principles apply.   AI is much more useful today due to th emassive amounts of data it needs are available for some applications.  When you are trying to recognize one out of thousands of palm species targets, the library may not contain that palm or the image could be when the palm is young or a different visual perspective.  It will take a while for the data to be incorporated that can compensate for different species and visual perspectives, let alone seedlings juveniles and adults.  AI requires lots of data and perhaps most important initially is mining that data for the library.  Identifying an alfredii as a queen says the algorithm doesn't even understand the parameters of trunk thickness or leaf plumosity.   A human has no problem differentiating the two with just one or two parameters.  The app will be good when it can match a human, and outstanding when it is better than a human expert.  Dont hold your breath, as I cant imagine the financial incentives to really develop such an accurate app on a large set of targets(many thousands of palms).   My thesis was comparing neural network methods with statistical methods of classification and multiple regression.  But lets face it any human can see that a 30' wide alfredii with a 3' thick swollen trunk base and planar leaflet arrangements is nothing like a a queen.  Queens are easily differentiated with a  trivial algorithm using just plumose leaves.  The queen is also differentiated by its 12-15" thick trunk palm that is 15- 20' wide.  The problem of saying "its not a queen" is much easier than asking what is it?  The people writing that app need to get to work to make it useful.

[Bkue]

  On 8/30/2024 at 2:40 PM, sonoranfans said:

In 13 years from a 3 gallon strap leaf just going pinnate, my largest alfie has grown about 7' of trunk including the dead leafbases.  Here it is with 5' of the trunk clear.  I let leaf bases fall off, no removal.  I'm happy to know its self cleaning as it matures.   Dont be mistaken these are large trunked, wide crown palms when mature, larger than bismarckia.  There are plenty of roots 20' from the trunk of this palm.  Mine has been exposed to (2) cat one hurricanes, no tilting.   So 7 feet of trunk in 13 years pales to my other palms:  Bismarckia(>20' trunk growth), Royals(est 20-23' trunk growth), sabal causiarum (20'+ trunk growth), Livistona decora(>20' trunk growth).  My largest alfie is 30' or perhaps a couple feet more but that trunk is just 7 feet 

 

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Exhibit A