Life span of queen palms

[miamicuse]

I read somewhere that queen palms have a life expectancy of 20-25 years.

Is this true?  Does it mean no queen palms are over 25 years old or this is highly dependent on location and environment?

[rizla023]

There are some queen palms in my neighborhood that are easily 50-80 years old. I would not say that’s even an average lifespan of a queen.

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 8/11/2024 at 12:14 AM, miamicuse said:

I read somewhere that queen palms have a life expectancy of 20-25 years.

Is this true?  Does it mean no queen palms are over 25 years old or this is highly dependent on location and environment?

Expand  

Doesn't sound right..  While various things might cut short the life of a Queen,

Know of plenty of specimens planted around San Jose that are 40+ years old.. Believe other folks here have posted shots of specimens  many years older than that in S. Cal..

[Jim in Los Altos]

They can easily live to 100 years or more in a mild climate. There are healthy Queen palms in my area that were planted in the 1950s. Perhaps what you read pertained to lightning strikes when the palms are big since you’re in Florida. Lightning is exceptionally rare here. 

[Merlyn]

I think @Jim in Los Altos hit it on the head.  In Florida a 20-25 year old Queen is a monster 40-60' tall lightning pole.  I planted some ~2 year old palms in April 2018 and they are already 15-20 feet of trunk.  Their lifespan will be approximately 8 years, as I am cutting one down today and killing the rest later this year.  They also aren't super steady in hurricanes, and tend to get Fusarium in Florida.  So finding one over 25 years old in Central or Southern Florida might be extremely rare.  Heck, finding any palms in Florida over 30-40 feet tall is pretty unusual...at least in the Orlando area.  But in places where they don't grow 3 feet of trunk per year, older palms are totally feasible.

[PalmatierMeg]

Queen palms are Class II invasives in FL. Fortunately, it looks like responsible nurseries and garden centers are phasing them out in SFL/SWFL. They despise our alkaline, calcareous, sandy dreck soil, hog water and fertilizer from other palms, produce copious quantities of slimy, smelly orange 1" fruits that attract flies, muscovy ducks and other feeders. They are fatally attractive to fusarium wilt and require constant access to fertilizer & water. They are beautiful if you put ample resources into their care (most people around here don't so they die slow deaths). I put in the care and ended up losing all of mine to wilt.

Queens, as mentioned above, do not deal well with hurricanes (nor do most Syagrus, i.e., kellyana, picrophylla, hybrids). One of the few good things Hurricane Ian did was absolutely thrash existing queens with cat 4/5 winds. Two years later queens dating back 30+ years are dying from storm damage all over Cape Coral and, I hope, will not be replaced.

[sonoranfans]

Yeah, I agree with Meg, they hate our soil and that is likely a reason they die  early here.  The longevity of a palm in its habitat or ideal climate may differ from the longevity you get.  We have a few tall ones but they are so scrawny looks more like a carpentaria trunk with a shrunken syagrus crown.  I don't doubt some live to 100 years in some soils/climates, but your mileage may vary.  

[Jim in Los Altos]

These Queens have been on this property in San Jose, CA since the 1940s. 
 

[Merlyn]

Here's my ~8 year old Queens before....

Yeah, it was a bad photo directly into the morning sunlight.  I tried to clean it up a bit, but it still looks crappy.  Here's after a bad case of chainsawitis...3 down and 4 to go!

[Jim in Los Altos]

In Santa Barbara, CA. Probably close to 100 years old. 

 

Los Angeles. Many of these street trees were planted in the 1920s.

 

[palmnut-fry]

Yeah, Cali seems to be a superior place for romanzioffianums sp esp after reading these Florida examples! So many palms do so well out there as compared to the sticky hot mess of Fl.

Isn't the species of Syagrus amara known as the "overtop palm" specifically because it releases its leaves during high wind events and thus protects the plant? This same species is often confused with coconuts because of uncanny resemblance. Are these seen much on Fl i wonder? 

[Las Palmas Norte]

Life span of queen palms

 

In my garden, one season. 😂

[sonoranfans]

Long live the Queen, but not in my yard!  She is too high maintenance for the results here.

[Merlyn]

@palmnut-fry I tried figuring out the source of the "Overtop Palm" name and came up with nothing.  Maybe it's because it's a fast grower and goes "over the top" of everything else?  Maybe it is Royals that release the fronds in high winds? 

Syagrus Amara should be more popular here, it looks just like a now-common Foxtail but is supposed to be a bit more hardy.  I keep missing when Floribunda has seedlings for sale, and haven't seen one in the wild...ever.  Well, maybe I saw some and just thought they were Foxtails...?

[palmnut-fry]

Opps, i was looking at my old palm book and mis-rememebered.

The genus is Rhyticocos amara. 

Is that even a valid genus anymore as my book is from the 1950s!

[Merlyn]

@palmnut-fry I did read that Rhyticocos was an older name for the palm.  I just couldn't find a reference for the name anywhere.

[FlaPalmLover]

People on here say they're high maintenance, but I see plenty around that look good that I doubt are cared for in any special way. 🤷‍♂️ That being said, there are plenty that look rough too. That's probably a function of the soil quality I'd imagine.

  On 8/14/2024 at 10:56 PM, Merlyn said:

@palmnut-fry I tried figuring out the source of the "Overtop Palm" name and came up with nothing.  Maybe it's because it's a fast grower and goes "over the top" of everything else?  Maybe it is Royals that release the fronds in high winds? 

Syagrus Amara should be more popular here, it looks just like a now-common Foxtail but is supposed to be a bit more hardy.  I keep missing when Floribunda has seedlings for sale, and haven't seen one in the wild...ever.  Well, maybe I saw some and just thought they were Foxtails...?

Expand  

That looks a lot more similar to a coconut palm than a foxtail, IMO. They should be more popular, though - you're right. Those are very nice looking.

[Merlyn]

  On 8/15/2024 at 3:32 AM, FlaPalmLover said:

That looks a lot more similar to a coconut palm than a foxtail, IMO. They should be more popular, though - you're right. Those are very nice looking.

Expand  

Ah, yeah I had my names mixed up.  Syagrus Sancona is the one that looks a lot like the Foxtail, Amara is the one that looks like a 1/2 scale Cocos. 

[PalmatierMeg]

I read an article some years back that named Syagrus amara the most wind-damage-prone Syagrus in the genus. Makes sense considering how tall it gets. Does that info still hold true? I don't know.

[Xenon]

  On 8/15/2024 at 12:40 PM, Merlyn said:

Ah, yeah I had my names mixed up.  Syagrus Sancona is the one that looks a lot like the Foxtail, Amara is the one that looks like a 1/2 scale Cocos. 

Expand  

I'm not convinced S. sancona would be hardier than a foxtail. Foxtails are pretty hardy for a crown-shafted palm and I think some of that comes from their seasonally dry habitat with some temperature change. I wouldn't be surprised if sancona is more tender...it's native to one of the most hyper-tropical stable places on earth with tons of rainfall year round. 

[Merlyn]

@Xenon on Sancona I'm just going by Kinzjr's spreadsheet of reported frost damage.  In FL there are reports of serious damage or death at 25-26, and minor damage in the 27-30F range with only minor damage at the epic 2009 Leu Gardens freeze.  My reading is that it's a solid 10a and probably ok in a warm 9b.  That's with small palms, so possibly hardier when older.

My personal experience here is that 28F + frost = death with foxtails.  I have 4 surviving 15+ foot foxtails out of originally 13 of them.  They've been killed by frosts anywhere from 25-32F.  The 4 survivors had high oak canopy and Queen canopy for all the freezes, so have never actually been exposed.  Those oaks all died and were cut down, so the upcoming winters will be telling. 

There's some variability in the sheet's reports, but overall very similar to Sancona.  I'm just hopeful that they will either be a degree or two tougher...or less likely to immediately die from crown or trunk rot after freezes.

[MJSanDiego]

Foxtail is a zone 10 palm. It says right on the info tag where I buy them at The Home Depot. 30+, zone 10. Unprotected with no overhead canopy such as other taller vegetation, they will be severely damaged at 28F and likely perish 

[tim_brissy_13]

There are S romanzoffiana at the Royal Melbourne Botanic Gardens that were planted in the late 1800s. So they can definitely live well beyond 100 years as long as they avoid lightning and disease. 
 

Just to add to the Wodyetia vs S sancona debate - S sancona is much hardier here. It’s possibly mostly cool tolerance related, but that being said my S sancona survived around -3C/27F back in 2017 when it was still small and not established. The same freeze killed typically bulletproof palms here like C baronii, C ambositrae, Hedyscepe and even potted Rhopalostylis sapida!

[sonoranfans]

  On 8/16/2024 at 12:29 AM, MJSanDiego said:

Foxtail is a zone 10 palm. It says right on the info tag where I buy them at The Home Depot. 30+, zone 10. Unprotected with no overhead canopy such as other taller vegetation, they will be severely damaged at 28F and likely perish 

Expand  

Dont expect home depot to be knowlegable about palms.  Mature foxtails and royals survived two consecutive nights of 28F here with no canopy with frost low to the ground.  That would be a warm 9b palm.  

[Xenon]

  On 8/16/2024 at 12:11 PM, sonoranfans said:

Dont expect home depot to be knowlegable about palms.  Mature foxtails and royals survived two consecutive nights of 28F here with no canopy with frost low to the ground.  That would be a warm 9b palm.  

Expand  

Lots of foxtails survived somewhere between 22-25F in far southern Texas, at a rate maybe just slightly below large royals at the lower end of temps and about equal at the higher end. Pretty incredible considering the massive size difference! Completely exposed full on all day radiation nuclear level freeze too. 

[MJSanDiego]

  On 8/16/2024 at 12:11 PM, sonoranfans said:

Dont expect home depot to be knowlegable about palms.  Mature foxtails and royals survived two consecutive nights of 28F here with no canopy with frost low to the ground.  That would be a warm 9b palm.  

Expand  

Survive, sure. Ideal?. No. Not good for the long term, even if it shows no cosmetic damage one time freeze. It weakens them each time such incident occurs. And if you are already zone pushing, and get a new record low, it could severely damage or kill it. It is a zone 10 palm which can be confirmed by looking at its natural habitat as well

[sonoranfans]

  On 8/16/2024 at 3:53 PM, MJSanDiego said:

Survive, sure. Ideal?. No. Not good for the long term, even if it shows no cosmetic damage one time freeze. It weakens them each time such incident occurs. And if you are already zone pushing, and get a new record low, it could severely damage or kill it. It is a zone 10 palm which can be confirmed by looking at its natural habitat as well

Expand  

Well 13 years later those palms are fine.   Experience here shows that they are good to the upper 20's with mild damage.  The zone assignment of a plant is about survival, not looking good fresh off the cold snap.  Royals and foxtails are the most common palms in my area all the big ones in my neighborhood have seen high 20's.  There si more information on palm talk more data than home depot collects or cares about collecting.  They dont care they just dont want you to claim a warranty or anger people

[MJSanDiego]

  On 8/16/2024 at 3:55 PM, sonoranfans said:

Well 13 years later those palms are fine.   Experience here shows that they are good to the upper 20's with mild damage.  The zone assignment of a plant is about survival, not looking good fresh off the cold snap.

Expand  

Fresh... n crispy 🤣😎

[sonoranfans]

  On 8/16/2024 at 3:57 PM, MJSanDiego said:

Fresh... n crispy 🤣😎

Expand  

nicer than your queens

[MJSanDiego]

  On 8/16/2024 at 3:59 PM, sonoranfans said:

nicer than your queens

Expand  

I have two foxtails bought at Home Depot. Big 10 gallon pots 7 to 8 ft tall very healthy. I just planted them 3 months ago and they are putting out nice new spears and already on another ring shed. I like them!

[sonoranfans]

two houses away these saw the 28 x 2 and even had some volunteers.

[sonoranfans]

I believe that board member @kinzyjr has a spreadsheet with the best 9B/10A results from many palmtalkers of decades past.

[MJSanDiego]

  On 8/16/2024 at 4:12 PM, sonoranfans said:

two houses away these saw the 28 x 2 and even had some volunteers.

Expand  

Nice! Mature palms can be more cold hardy.  You will be pleased to know I ripped out a Queen palm today!! Can you believe it?!? It was ultra dark green in nutrient rich clay alkaline soil, but with the troublesome Boron deficiency. Either the palm could not extract the Boron from the nutrient rich clay, or the soil lacks Boron. Either way, it was also on a slope and troublesome location so I only have one Queen now. That is enough with time, maintenance and fussing over to make it perfect

[Merlyn]

Welp, two more Queens caught the 'itis at lunch today.  This time it was a small battery-powered reciprocating saw-itis with a fresh fine tooth blade.  It was easy to cut the upper side of the petiole partway through and let the frond slowly bend down as the structural fibers crack.  Then once it's hanging mostly vertical just lop through the last 1/2" or so and carry it down the ladder.  The chainsaw is a lot faster, but the fronds just go ka-whumph and land on random stuff.

On the right side is a triple foxtail and a single, then with two more queens about 8 feet further along the back side of the house.  Those foxtails used to have a ~80 foot tall oak tree over them, the trunk of one was roughly where I was standing to take the picture.  With that frost protection they took very minor damage with cold fronts into the 24.6-28F range...that same front killed 100% of the 8 foxtails out in the open.

[MJSanDiego]

  On 8/16/2024 at 5:04 PM, Merlyn said:

Welp, two more Queens caught the 'itis at lunch today.  This time it was a small battery-powered reciprocating saw-itis with a fresh fine tooth blade.  It was easy to cut the upper side of the petiole partway through and let the frond slowly bend down as the structural fibers crack.  Then once it's hanging mostly vertical just lop through the last 1/2" or so and carry it down the ladder.  The chainsaw is a lot faster, but the fronds just go ka-whumph and land on random stuff.

On the right side is a triple foxtail and a single, then with two more queens about 8 feet further along the back side of the house.  Those foxtails used to have a ~80 foot tall oak tree over them

Expand  

@sonoranfans according to @Merlyn his big mature Foxtails all died at 28 and frost. @Merlyndid we both remove Queens today? 🤣

[Xenon]

This entire group of foxtails in deep south TX survived 23-24F in Feb 2021. Long freeze all day palmageddon, the lowest temp was actually recorded sometime in the middle of the day when the winds were howling 30+ mph. 

As you can see from this streetview in Feb 2024, they are doing just fine.

 

 

[Arecaceus]

In Brazil are tons of ancient ones. In many places they have super tall 100+ year old Queens.

[FlaPalmLover]

I'm willing to take my chances with my foxtails here in 9b. One is under some canopy and the other was planted as close to a heated part of my house as possible, so we'll see. 

[Merlyn]

  On 8/16/2024 at 6:00 PM, Xenon said:

This entire group of foxtails in deep south TX survived 23-24F in Feb 2021. Long freeze all day palmageddon, the lowest temp was actually recorded sometime in the middle of the day when the winds were howling 30+ mph. 

As you can see from this streetview in Feb 2024, they are doing just fine.

Expand  

I'd wager the big problem here is frost and young age.  If the winds were 30mph there'd be no chance of frost.  Those are also pretty mature, and all the ones that died here were still super skinny 8 to 10 footers with typical stretched-out-from-the-nursery fronds.  Those all died.  The ones that grew up under the shelter into "normal" looking ones survived.  Kinzyjr said much the same for his local mature ones.  They were defoliated at 28 but grew right back.

That being said, there are foxtails everywhere on the central and South sides of Orlando, and only a handful up on the NW side near me.  If mine survive the next few winters I might try some more.  I am also trying Achontos of several types, it should be a good comparison.

[Xenon]

  On 8/17/2024 at 1:37 AM, Merlyn said:

I'd wager the big problem here is frost and young age.  If the winds were 30mph there'd be no chance of frost.  Those are also pretty mature, and all the ones that died here were still super skinny 8 to 10 footers with typical stretched-out-from-the-nursery fronds.  Those all died.  The ones that grew up under the shelter into "normal" looking ones survived.  Kinzyjr said much the same for his local mature ones.  They were defoliated at 28 but grew right back.

That being said, there are foxtails everywhere on the central and South sides of Orlando, and only a handful up on the NW side near me.  If mine survive the next few winters I might try some more.  I am also trying Achontos of several types, it should be a good comparison.

Expand  

There was a pretty frosty yet brief event down there this past winter (low was 27-29F) that burned royal fronds 30-60% ish while most of the foxtails look nearly untouched (go figure). Can you grow royal palms? I'd wager your actual temps are a fare bit lower than you think vs heat island Orlando. 

I'm an optimist/delusional and only evalutate"real" cold hardiness on palms that were previously in good health (actively growing, no major nutrient deficiencies, etc).  I also don't think canopy is everything...some palms like royals, foxtails, Bismarckia etc are just meant to be full sun plants. Faster recovery in full sun can be just as important as warding off frost at the cost of much slower growth/vigor overall. 

Sorry for getting so off topic haha