Aggresive Palms

[LowDesertBoil]

So I talked with tinman10101 about palms with aggressive root systems; such as Queen palms. He mentioned this would be a great forum topic and I agree! Out of all the experience and years of dedication that the members of this site have, what type of palms do you all feel are the most aggressive, concrete lifting, ground hardening, pain in the..... petiole..  you all have had to deal with? This should be fun. Pictures if you got um

[tim_brissy_13]

One thing I can add to this topic is that there is a S romanzoffiana planted at a relatives house in an opening of concrete barely wider than the trunk. It is about 30 years old and the roots have gone aerial and layer on top of the concrete reaching for any soil. But absolutely no impact onto the concrete surface at all, it’s still perfect. 
 

I believe there’s no concrete 😄 evidence that palm roots alone disturb paving. Of course if a trunk is planted to close the expansion will impact it, but in my area S romanzoffiana probably has the most aggressive root system and still it doesn’t affect concreting. 

[sonoranfans]

I know of no palms that lift or crack concrete.  26 years growin them and NADA.  Queen palms are "aggtressive" because their roots may take the water from other plants, but no cracking of concrete.

[MJSanDiego]

Queen palms do not have aggressive roots. That is a  misconception that needs to be cleared up.  I have seen 30 year old Queen palms teetering on the edge of a washed out canyon from this past January flooding in San Diego with roots fully exposed. The roots were confined to what I consider a nornal standard palm root ball. All palm roots grow within a certain diameter and circumference and not that deep. And the individual roots do not keep getting fatter and fatter like a tree. Palms are not trees in the true sense by standard definition. Palms are in the Arecaceae family. This is why you can see mature Queen palms all over the place inches from sidewalks with no lifting or cracking of concrete. This is Syragus Romanzoffiana land, ubiquitous!

[LowDesertBoil]

Tim I am literally falling off my chair laughing! Very nice play on words! That is amazing. Thank you for your expierence!

[LowDesertBoil]

When I moved in with my significant other she had a queen palm that lifted a portion of concrete around the pool. Her ex-husband planted it in the ground.

[LowDesertBoil]

Now I want to state I have very little experience compared to most of you. I only know what I see. There were 4 other queens around the yard that lifted no concrete but this one in fact lifted the concrete for sure. One off, I suppose.

[MJSanDiego]

Like others have also stated, no one has seen such a scenario.  What evidence do you have that the palm caused the lifting of the concrete versus other causes such as water damage, pool leak, ground shift, ground settling, defective installation, earthquake or other?

[Jim in Los Altos]

Most Queen palms behave well but, in my business, I’ve come across a few “naughty” ones. One grew roots between concrete and a swimming pool’s coping, lifting it several inches, and roots making their way right into the pool. Another pushed a huge concrete slab up near another pool belonging to a client and we had to remove the palm. We originally planted it and assured the home owner it would be fine. For a palm only in the ground five years, its root mass was massive and incredible. 
 

I have a flagstone on concrete walkway in my front yard that is beginning to lift slightly and the culprit is two 25 year old Queens a few feet away. Will need to cut the roots in the area and reset the stone. Not really a big deal but bothersome nonetheless. 

[Looking Glass]

On this forum, if your palm tree uprooted itself in the middle of the night, crawled up to your bedroom while you were at work, had sex with your spouse, and afterward they ran off in your new car to Mexico, members would still have a hard time finding fault with the palm.  

That being said, it does indeed appear that it is very rare for a palms to damage concrete.  It’s possible if you push your luck, but you normally have to do some really daring planting (polite) to make it happen.   

I think invading old, damaged plumbing pipes is a different story though.  I was on a plumbing site a while back and they were talking about various jobs where palm roots commonly got into pipes.   Washies seemed to be the guilty party there.  

Either way, palm roots are much more well behaved than dicot roots, which commonly cause serious damage to structures that are close by.  

[Harry’s Palms]

Yea , I’ve got some tall Queen palms and they do have an intricate root system but not enough to do any damage to my concrete or my pathway , which is just pavers on sand . The pavers are about 5’ from the trunks of a row of Syagrus and Archontophoenix. I had to take a power saw to the root to have room for the sand and pavers. That was about 5 years ago and so far so good. I’m not saying it can’t happen , but with 8 of them and 25-30 years of having them , I have not had that problem. Harry

[LowDesertBoil]

Looking, WOW LMAO!! I can't stop laughing! well said!😂😂

[LowDesertBoil]

Harry, I suppose my lady's queen was a one-off. Other queens around the yard caused no damage but this queen had an attitude problem or something!

[LowDesertBoil]

Here is a shot of the slap. The pavers were not there before. It used to be all grass area.  The queen was a couple feet to the left of it.

[MJSanDiego]

I don't see any concrete evidence that a palm a few feet to the left in the now paver area could have caused that kind of lifting that far away. I don't think it is possible. I'd have to say it's something else such as ground shift, ground settling, water damage, drainage issue, earthquake,  etc.

[MJSanDiego]

I had this same issue years ago. It was a drainage issue. Water kept settling in the area and shifted the concrete decking. Since you had grass and sprinklers there in the past, I surmise that was the cause 

[LowDesertBoil]

I have none other than my own eyes and the fact I personally dug out a foot around the entire pool to lay pavers. if there was any sign of "water damage, pool leak, ground shift, ground settling, defective installation, earthquake or other.. there would be other slabs or some sign of that type of erosion present in the general area. As I said earlier I have very little experience in the field of palms. Being a novice at this I am only curious to others opinions. There were quite a few roots from the queen that made its way under the slab area. Maybe there's a giant rock under that 1 slab and the roots grew on top and pushed the slab up. I have no idea. When I repour the slab I will take pictures. Thank you all for the great pictures and conversation!

[LowDesertBoil]

It could be something like what you experienced. I have a lot of palms now (young) and it makes me feel better that I don't need to be too concerned with the palm's roots. Other than the common sense factors; such as, the video LookingGlass posted!

[LowDesertBoil]

Jim, thank you for the experience! A 5 YO Queen palm? Thats incredible! Have you seen any other palms that gave you issues in your business?

[Patrick]

Lookingglass: THAT'S an exact picture of the guy right there!!! No wonder she always 'has a headache'

 

Low desert, high here and low there on that slab tells me you had/ have compaction issues, not a palm issue. Sure something may have pushed it up; but if the compaction was satisfactory that slab shouldn't have moved down. I would expect maybe a break across the middle and it to lift up in the back... There are far too many sloppy installation going on since forever; but something made it move. It may have even been the weight of the concrete; but I'm not disagreeing it could have been some plant material jarring things around. 

 

For myself, I haven't had a palm problem, but my Regina nicolai has pushed up the concrete on my front walkway. Not sure if it's a mono or dicot, but it has definitely moved things....

[LowDesertBoil]

Heya, Patrick! Thank you for the input! I will be tearing it up someday when the pool is redone. Very well could be a compaction issue the house was built in 2002 and the contractor was a "save a penny" type of fellow from what I am told! How far from your concrete is your Regina nicolai if I may ask?

[MJSanDiego]

Wouldn't that qualify as one of my stated causes.... defective installation? Compaction. High and low, settling. Given this input from Patrick, I would say with confidence it was not caused by the palm roots that you discovered underneath. This is all good news for you!!!!!  Now you can freely plant another gorgeous elegent graceful stately Queen palm anywhere you desire! 😀

[LowDesertBoil]

Firstly I hope you feel better yourself, secondly, Queens are not a favorite so.. no I would rather plant a weed :). Thank you for your valued input though!

[Tracy]

4 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

One thing I can add to this topic is that there is a S romanzoffiana planted at a relatives house in an opening of concrete barely wider than the trunk. It is about 30 years old and the roots have gone aerial and layer on top of the concrete reaching for any soil. But absolutely no impact onto the concrete surface at all, it’s still perfect. 
 

I believe there’s no concrete 😄 evidence that palm roots alone disturb paving. Of course if a trunk is planted to close the expansion will impact it, but in my area S romanzoffiana probably has the most aggressive root system and still it doesn’t affect concreting. 

Tim, I have low retaining walls in my clay soil garden in Carlsbad, where I planted some queen's  By low, I am referring to 3 blocks high 8"x8"x16" high with a cap with rebar and filled with 3000 psi concrete and footings 12" wide and about 18" deep.  Yes, kind of overkill, but I used to sell concrete, so spent some time with structural drawings on residential and commercial buildings and providing quantity takeoffs for the concrete contractors I dealt with.  I did experience cracking in the retainer strategically in front of a couple of less than 10 year old Syagrus romanzoffiiana.  How do I know it was the palm that caused the problem?  I dug out the palm and could see the density of the roots.   I paid to have the remaining ones removed and replaced with palms that play nicer.  By the way, the new palms actually let other plants grow near their bases too, as opposed to their roots choking out new plants.

Until you have the opportunity to dig some palms, you don't really understand the root systems they put out.  I have dug out plenty of palms, whether to remove or transplant over the years.  The most unpleasant to dig have definitely been Queen palms.

The house I live in was a prime example of Home Depot planting when I bought it.  The couple that inherited the house did a remodel of sorts and redid the landscape before putting it on the market.  The wife had grown up in the house and inherited it completely overgrown when her mother died, so they cut back all the overgrown vines, along with removing several trees.  There replacements consisted of three species "Queens" "Pygmy Date Palms" and "Giant Bird of Paradise".   They also planted 5 clumps of Kings, which had between 3-5 trunks per clump.  After removing about a dozen Queens myself, I hired someone to dozens of Queens, 70 something group plantings of Giant Bird and over about 5 years removed all the Pygmy date palms and thinned the Kings down to two singles and one double.  I think that counts for learning about root systems. 

While I personally have not had issues with other species, I can't use my personal anecdote that other species don't have aggressive root systems.  If someone else didn't have a problem with their Queens, that also doesn't discount my experience or what Jim mentioned seeing in the many installations he has done.

Tin, Tin, Tin, you mischievous young man, putting your friend Low Desert Boil up to this thread.

[Jim in Los Altos]

2 hours ago, LowDesertBoil said:

Jim, thank you for the experience! A 5 YO Queen palm? Thats incredible! Have you seen any other palms that gave you issues in your business?

No, not five year old palm, five years in the ground. The Queen palm came out of a 24” box and was likely ten years old when planted. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

2 hours ago, Patrick said:

Lookingglass: THAT'S an exact picture of the guy right there!!! No wonder she always 'has a headache'

 

Low desert, high here and low there on that slab tells me you had/ have compaction issues, not a palm issue. Sure something may have pushed it up; but if the compaction was satisfactory that slab shouldn't have moved down. I would expect maybe a break across the middle and it to lift up in the back... There are far too many sloppy installation going on since forever; but something made it move. It may have even been the weight of the concrete; but I'm not disagreeing it could have been some plant material jarring things around. 

 

For myself, I haven't had a palm problem, but my Regina nicolai has pushed up the concrete on my front walkway. Not sure if it's a mono or dicot, but it has definitely moved things....

You mean Strelitzia nicolai? 

[LowDesertBoil]

tracy, thank you for the input! I might add some very appreciated input, from a seasoned grower no doubt! Yes, Tin gave me a whopper of a topic.. He decided to rip that newbie bandaid off of me! That's a lot of palms you have removed, dear god!

[tim_brissy_13]

24 minutes ago, Tracy said:

Tim, I have low retaining walls in my clay soil garden in Carlsbad, where I planted some queen's  By low, I am referring to 3 blocks high 8"x8"x16" high with a cap with rebar and filled with 3000 psi concrete.  I did experience cracking in the retainer strategically in front of some less than 10 year old Syagrus romanzoffiiana.  How do I know it was the palm that caused the problem?  I dug out the palm and could see the density of the roots.   I paid to have the remaining ones removed and replaced with palms that play nicer.  By the way, the new palms actually let other plants grow near their bases too, as opposed to their roots choking out new plants.

Until you have the opportunity to dig some palms, you don't really understand the root systems they put out.  I have dug out plenty of palms, whether to remove or transplant over the years.  The most unpleasant to dig have definitely been Queen palms.

The house I live in was a prime example of Home Depot planting when I bought it.  The couple that inherited the house did a remodel of sorts and redid the landscape before putting it on the market.  The wife had grown up in the house and inherited it completely overgrown when her mother died, so they cut back all the overgrown vines, along with removing several trees.  There replacements consisted of three species "Queens" "Pygmy Date Palms" and "Giant Bird of Paradise".   They also planted 5 clumps of Kings, which had between 3-5 trunks per clump.  After removing about a dozen Queens myself, I hired someone to dozens of Queens, 70 something group plantings of Giant Bird and over about 5 years removed all the Pygmy date palms and thinned the Kings down to two singles and one double.  I think that counts for learning about root systems. 

While I personally have not had issues with other species, I can't use my personal anecdote that other species don't have aggressive root systems.  If someone else didn't have a problem with their Queens, that also doesn't discount my experience or what Jim mentioned seeing in the many installations he has done.

Tin, Tin, Tin, you mischievous young man, putting your friend Low Desert Boil up to this thread.

Honestly I’ve had a similar experience. At my childhood home, there were about 7 S romanzoffianas planted all around the pool. Paving began lifting in one area and when it was removed palm roots were found to be in the cracks. 
 

I guess where we differ is the conclusion we drew. My assumption was the adventitous roots were opportunistic to the cracks rather than the cause since there were multiple palms yet only one cracked and lifted section. Paving in other areas were much closer to palm trunks than the affected area. I guess the other difference is that it sounds like the shear density of the local rootball in your case busted the retaining wall. Sounds like a similar mechanism to that which could cause an expanding trunk to impact hardscaping. I guess this isn’t hard to imagine, sort of like with palms that have been placed on the soil for years in a pot - eventually they’ll bust through and break the pot wide open (although perhaps not completely consume the pot like a dicot would). I’ve also definitely had a case where an expanding palm trunk (A alexandrae) has lifted paving because it was planted too close (like right up against it and still there to this day!). 
 

What I’ve always heard is that adventitious roots will stop at a barrier and re-direct and my observations have always matched this but I’m always open to hearing others’ experiences. 

[Harry’s Palms]

5 hours ago, LowDesertBoil said:

Here is a shot of the slap. The pavers were not there before. It used to be all grass area.  The queen was a couple feet to the left of it.

My old house had a pool with a deck that was like yours , lifted. That was prior to planting any palms. When I had an estimator out I was told that the separation seams must be recalled every couple of years or that is what happens . It is common on older pool decks. The water runs under the concrete causing it to lift. Just one alternative possibility. Harry

[Patrick]

2 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

You mean Strelitzia nicolai? 

Strelitzia, Shmelitzia. 220, 221... Whatever it takes... 2 species in the same name what a blast!

My Latin is bad. You are correct Jim. Thanks. 

[MJSanDiego]

3 hours ago, Tracy said:

Tim, I have low retaining walls in my clay soil garden in Carlsbad, where I planted some queen's  By low, I am referring to 3 blocks high 8"x8"x16" high with a cap with rebar and filled with 3000 psi concrete and footings 12" wide and about 18" deep.  Yes, kind of overkill, but I used to sell concrete, so spent some time with structural drawings on residential and commercial buildings and providing quantity takeoffs for the concrete contractors I dealt with.  I did experience cracking in the retainer strategically in front of a couple of less than 10 year old Syagrus romanzoffiiana.  How do I know it was the palm that caused the problem?  I dug out the palm and could see the density of the roots.   I paid to have the remaining ones removed and replaced with palms that play nicer.  By the way, the new palms actually let other plants grow near their bases too, as opposed to their roots choking out new plants.

Until you have the opportunity to dig some palms, you don't really understand the root systems they put out.  I have dug out plenty of palms, whether to remove or transplant over the years.  The most unpleasant to dig have definitely been Queen palms.

The house I live in was a prime example of Home Depot planting when I bought it.  The couple that inherited the house did a remodel of sorts and redid the landscape before putting it on the market.  The wife had grown up in the house and inherited it completely overgrown when her mother died, so they cut back all the overgrown vines, along with removing several trees.  There replacements consisted of three species "Queens" "Pygmy Date Palms" and "Giant Bird of Paradise".   They also planted 5 clumps of Kings, which had between 3-5 trunks per clump.  After removing about a dozen Queens myself, I hired someone to dozens of Queens, 70 something group plantings of Giant Bird and over about 5 years removed all the Pygmy date palms and thinned the Kings down to two singles and one double.  I think that counts for learning about root systems. 

While I personally have not had issues with other species, I can't use my personal anecdote that other species don't have aggressive root systems.  If someone else didn't have a problem with their Queens, that also doesn't discount my experience or what Jim mentioned seeing in the many installations he has done.

Tin, Tin, Tin, you mischievous young man, putting your friend Low Desert Boil up to this thread.

I had a Wash Robusta grow from seed just 5 inches next to the top of a block retaining wall.  I just left it for fun. Over the years the trunk swelled to eventually touching the wall, and as it swelled further it started to crack the block wall joints.  Trunks can be slow silent powerful destroyers and will crack anything eventually.  Roots, not so much, but anything is possible.  I find it difficult to definitively measure the aggressiveness of a particular species of roots with so many scenarios.  Imagine an underwater PVC pipe from an irrigation system with a pinhole leak 3 feet from a palm, the roots will migrate to it. I do not plant any large palms closer than 15 feet to the house. Not just due to the roots, but the length of the fronds, and other litter such as seed pods.   It's just good practice I think

[sonoranfans]

6 hours ago, Patrick said:

Lookingglass: THAT'S an exact picture of the guy right there!!! No wonder she always 'has a headache'

 

Low desert, high here and low there on that slab tells me you had/ have compaction issues, not a palm issue. Sure something may have pushed it up; but if the compaction was satisfactory that slab shouldn't have moved down. I would expect maybe a break across the middle and it to lift up in the back... There are far too many sloppy installation going on since forever; but something made it move. It may have even been the weight of the concrete; but I'm not disagreeing it could have been some plant material jarring things around. 

 

For myself, I haven't had a palm problem, but my Regina nicolai has pushed up the concrete on my front walkway. Not sure if it's a mono or dicot, but it has definitely moved things....

I also had pool decking that looked just like that due to soil compaction issues with no trees of any kind within 15' of concrete.  in arizona the newer construction uses smaller slabs and thicker pool shells to prevent expansive ground damage.  Cracking a slab that far away from the palm says expansive ground to me .  Maybe a queen did it but I dont see a smoking gun.  

[Chester B]

16 hours ago, LowDesertBoil said:

When I moved in with my significant other she had a queen palm that lifted a portion of concrete around the pool. Her ex-husband planted it in the ground.

I have a coworker in LA that has this issue too with the queens planted around his pool.

[tinman10101]

[Billeb]

1 hour ago, tinman10101 said:

This….👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻

 

-dale 

[LowDesertBoil]

I say the palm did it.  It's the queens fault!! She's a bad lady...

[tinman10101]

There are so many outliers in life and Palm botany is not an exception.  😉

Joking aside, the thread was purely based on people's experiences and I believe Jeremy received more than a canful. The intention was not to open Pandora's box but rather a constructive and educational thread on people's experience. 

[Billy]

[LowDesertBoil]

This was exactly the point! Thank you Tin. I appreciate the support and guidance through this adventure we refer to as palm talk!

[sonoranfans]

I see two larger slabs cracked at the grouting seams, and any concrete guy will tell you that is where they are supposed to crack when the ground settles.  Did a queen palm do that?  Id be more convinced if the slab was actually being cracked instead of the seams and if that cracking was near the tree trunk.  I dont see anything convincing that the queen caused this.  THere are other reasons that concrete commonly cracks along seams and they are common.   For this reason, this data point looks speculative to me for a queen palm causing a crack in a grouted seam.  I have seen similar lifting many times in the desert with no trees there.  Its exactly the reason I used paver deck on my second arizona house around the pool.