Large Sylvester Palm doing well in zone 8B, good news

[palmofmyhand]

Many of you may not be interested or care but I have seem to found evidence that sylvester palms do indeed grow in the 8 zone, despite many peoples’ concerns. Within 25 miles from where I live in zone 8b I have actually found a large specimen which seems to prove it. I planted 4 sylvesters here myself recently and a lot of people were wondering if they could survive the weather. A lot of people have been saying that CIDPs are cold hardier palms than sylvesters but I have yet to find evidence that this is true. I would love to grow some CIDPs but I have also read other places that they have to be atleast zone 9 or 10 to survive. Anyone on the fence about growing sylvesters in zone 8b I would say it looks to be very possible. I have also read an article where someone mentioned that they have seen sylvesters in the snow in India as well. This one in the picture is in North Augusta, SC which is zone 8b. It is exciting to me to see a species of palms that grow very large and look appealing to survive in this weather besides palmettos and windmills. Hopefully sylvesters would be able to continue to survive here even at greater heights going into say 40 feet. Does anyone know if theres any other large species that is actually capable of growing zone 8?

[Ben G.]

That's a nice find in 8b. I have heard and read from numerous sources that P. sylvestris are very hardy. (Many sources claim 15F) Here in the San Antonio suburbs, I see a fair number of CIDP that have survived all of the below "zone average" winters that have hit Texas in recent years. 

I don't see any other surviving Phoenix of any other kind, so I am inclined to believe that CIDP is definitely the hardest of the genus. On the other hand, I am aware that there probably weren't nearly as many specimens of anything other than CIDP to make the comparison very fair.

So, I have been thinking that it might worth it to get a few sylvestris seedlings and compare them to the young CIDP and dactylifera that I already have. I expect CIDP to win the survival competition, but I prefer sylvestris for overall appearance. I like the slimmer trunk and more silver color.

Others may say that their susceptibility to disease makes any of the Phoenix species a poor choice. So, I am interested to hear what others think.

 

[Las Palmas Norte]

Those will not grow in my zone 8 climate. I'd be willing to prove myself wrong if seeds landed my way.

[Fusca]

4 hours ago, Ben G. said:

That's a nice find in 8b. I have heard and read from numerous sources that P. sylvestris are very hardy. (Many sources claim 15F) Here in the San Antonio suburbs, I see a fair number of CIDP that have survived all of the below "zone average" winters that have hit Texas in recent years. 

I don't see any other surviving Phoenix of any other kind, so I am inclined to believe that CIDP is definitely the hardest of the genus. On the other hand, I am aware that there probably weren't nearly as many specimens of anything other than CIDP to make the comparison very fair.

So, I have been thinking that it might worth it to get a few sylvestris seedlings and compare them to the young CIDP and dactylifera that I already have. I expect CIDP to win the survival competition, but I prefer sylvestris for overall appearance. I like the slimmer trunk and more silver color.

Others may say that their susceptibility to disease makes any of the Phoenix species a poor choice. So, I am interested to hear what others think.

There were some massive solitary Phoenix palms at the Rim in NW San Antonio (zone 8b) that I believe were hybrids with a strong resemblance to canariensis.  Based on the way they held fruits I thought they were a cross with sylvestris.  9°F in February 2021 was apparently too much for them although many pure canariensis survived which you mentioned.  This seems to support my suspicion that they were hybrids.

[Meangreen94z]

CIDP came back from temperatures around 0-3°F in Dallas and Central Texas in 2021 at a pretty high percentage. In wet conditions they are the hardiest, in dry cold theophrasti can take similar temperatures from what I hear. In wet it’s maybe hardy to 15°F. I am trying a variant of theophrasti from Golkoy , Turkey(if the seeds were legitimate). It appears to be a hybrid with dactylifera based on habitat pictures. It’s the furthest north theophrasti grows.

Phoenix dactylifera is supposed to be hardier than sylvestris by a few degrees depending on locality. I would say in brief cold they can come back from 10°F or so. We had over 120 hours below freezing in 2021 and there were a few dactylifera survivors. Most died. 

Inner city Austin,  survived probably 7°F ultimate low:
Lago Vista, Texas. Probably 3-5°F in 2021:

[JLM]

The idea that canariensis is equal or less hardy than sylvestris is quite a bit incorrect IMO. 
 

There are two P canariensis planted at the end of someone’s driveway about a mile or so up the road from me, which is colder than my location is. These palms have been in the ground since at least 2007 (possibly longer), and have survived every freeze they have encountered, including the brutal ice storm and deep freeze of 2014 and 2018 freeze and snow event. The palms are definitely still there (I have driven past them several times this year). They come back very well after freezes. What’s even more proof, multiple Washingtonia in the neighbors yard suddenly disappeared by 2016, which were likely casualties of the 2014 or 2015 winters. 
 

Another case is a pair of canariensis in someone’s backyard that are visible from the road. Looking back, undetermined if they were there in 2007, but they were there in 2011, which means they also survived the 2014 event.
 

Another example of another canariensis down the road from me (further south), also survived 2014 and was there before 2007.
 

In my honest opinion, P canariensis is hardier than Washingtonia in both wetter and drier climates.

[palmofmyhand]

16 minutes ago, JLM said:

The idea that canariensis is equal or less hardy than sylvestris is quite a bit incorrect IMO. 
 

There are two P canariensis planted at the end of someone’s driveway about a mile or so up the road from me, which is colder than my location is. These palms have been in the ground since at least 2007 (possibly longer), and have survived every freeze they have encountered, including the brutal ice storm and deep freeze of 2014 and 2018 freeze and snow event. The palms are definitely still there (I have driven past them several times this year). They come back very well after freezes. What’s even more proof, multiple Washingtonia in the neighbors yard suddenly disappeared by 2016, which were likely casualties of the 2014 or 2015 winters. 
 

Another case is a pair of canariensis in someone’s backyard that are visible from the road. Looking back, undetermined if they were there in 2007, but they were there in 2011, which means they also survived the 2014 event.
 

Another example of another canariensis down the road from me (further south), also survived 2014 and was there before 2007.
 

In my honest opinion, P canariensis is hardier than Washingtonia in both wetter and drier climates.

So do you guys think that I could actually grow CIDPs in my 8b zone then? I might just give it a try given your testimonies but when you look it up online a lot of pages say CIDPs are zone 9 and above that’s what makes me question it.

[JLM]

24 minutes ago, palmofmyhand said:

So do you guys think that I could actually grow CIDPs in my 8b zone then? I might just give it a try given your testimonies but when you look it up online a lot of pages say CIDPs are zone 9 and above that’s what makes me question it.

The fronds can take some cosmetic damage in 9a temps. Much like livistona chinensis in that regard, and even Washingtonia robusta, where the fronds take damage well before the heart of the palm does.
 

I would give CIDP a try, it never hurts. I have one in my yard that I think is a hybrid between canariensis and sylvestris but leaning on the canariensis side, we will see when it gets bigger.

[Meangreen94z]

7 hours ago, palmofmyhand said:

So do you guys think that I could actually grow CIDPs in my 8b zone then? I might just give it a try given your testimonies but when you look it up online a lot of pages say CIDPs are zone 9 and above that’s what makes me question it.

Online ratings by retailers and general palm reference sites are almost always worthless . You are asking people in San Diego, Miami , etc. to tell you if something will survive in South Carolina. They have no idea. 25°F sounds like Armageddon to them. 
 

Who would guess a palm from the Canary Islands is one of the trunk hardiest in world? I was shocked learning that myself.

[Swolte]

9 hours ago, palmofmyhand said:

So do you guys think that I could actually grow CIDPs in my 8b zone then? I might just give it a try given your testimonies but when you look it up online a lot of pages say CIDPs are zone 9 and above that’s what makes me question it.

They can survive single digits. You'd see a lot more around here if it wasn't for disease issues.  

[Jack Lord]

CIDPs might be my favorite palm. Mrs. Lord and I may move to Southport, NC in the near future and I am already contemplating planting one there. I too wonder if it is worth the attempt.

[JohnT]

On 8/5/2024 at 9:16 AM, Jack Lord said:

CIDPs might be my favorite palm. Mrs. Lord and I may move to Southport, NC in the near future and I am already contemplating planting one there. I too wonder if it is worth the attempt.

Look at these beauties in Southport NC    
 

 

 

[palmofmyhand]

19 minutes ago, JohnT said:

Look at these beauties in Southport NC    
 

 

 

Hey John where did you purchase your CIDPs from if you don’t mind me asking?

[JohnT]

13 minutes ago, palmofmyhand said:

Hey John where did you purchase your CIDPs from if you don’t mind me asking?

Hey, they are actually Not mine, just took those pictures a few weeks ago while I was visiting Southport. 

On 8/5/2024 at 9:16 AM, Jack Lord said:

CIDPs might be my favorite palm. Mrs. Lord and I may move to Southport, NC in the near future and I am already contemplating planting one there. I too wonder if it is worth the attempt.

Look at these beauties in Southport NC    
 

 

 

[SailorBold]

That's the thing.. leaf damage and recovery time.. if you dip into defoliation temps every year..I wouldn't attempt it.. depending on crown recovery of course.. if you get defoliation every 3-4 years I'd give it a try.. so which one would be the winner speed wise? Sylvestris?

[Fusca]

On 8/4/2024 at 11:04 PM, JLM said:

I would give CIDP a try, it never hurts.

Unless you trim it with short sleeves and no gloves!  😆

But yeah, I'd give CIDP a try in 8b.  Especially if you can start with a 15-gal size or larger palm.  Sylvestris only in a warm 8b and definitely start big.