Over watered Trachycarpus Fortunei

[JRVL]

I've seen some discussion here about whether it's possible to over water a trachycarpus and I just thought I'd share my findings that it definitely is. Last weekend I accidentally left my root watering tool in the ground for one of my trachies for probably 25 minutes. Which is much longer than I normally would. I have clay soil. 

 

In a weeks time it's gone from drooping to pretty significantly browning. I assume it's going to die at this point. The soil has been reading "wet" up until today. First picture will be when I noticed the drooping and then second is today. 

[KPoff]

6 hours ago, JRVL said:

I've seen some discussion here about whether it's possible to over water a trachycarpus and I just thought I'd share my findings that it definitely is. Last weekend I accidentally left my root watering tool in the ground for one of my trachies for probably 25 minutes. Which is much longer than I normally would. I have clay soil. 

 

In a weeks time it's gone from drooping to pretty significantly browning. I assume it's going to die at this point. The soil has been reading "wet" up until today. First picture will be when I noticed the drooping and then second is today. 

I posted some pictures of mine a week or two ago. I don’t know that I actually overwatered it because the fronds have never drooped and are still at a 45 degree angle upwards from the trunk. I think I got a fungus from letting the sprinkler system spray it.

[JRVL]

@KPoff Is that what it still looks like today after two weeks? Cause I think that's alright. If it's hot where you are that could be the reason it's drooping.

[RJ]

Was it established? How long in its current spot?

[JRVL]

@RJ Planted end of March or beginning of April. I planted two and this one looked really nice until I did the watering incident. 

[RJ]

2 minutes ago, JRVL said:

@RJ Planted end of March or beginning of April. I planted two and this one looked really nice until I did the watering incident. 

So not established. I’ve always (or hopefully) said it’s pretty hard to overwater an established trachy. 

 

[JRVL]

@RJYeah. Unfortunately it's currently storming so I assume this is going to be toast. 

[KPoff]

13 minutes ago, JRVL said:

@KPoff Is that what it still looks like today after two weeks? Cause I think that's alright. If it's hot where you are that could be the reason it's drooping.

@JRVL it isn’t droopy but the lower fronds have a lot of spots on them. Some look pretty rough. The top ones are mostly good and the spear is still growing so I’m hoping it will be ok. I treated it with fungicide. It’s also brutal hot where I’m at in west Texas so that could be part of it too.

[JRVL]

@KPoff There's many here more knowledgeable than me, but based on the picture you posted I think the palm is doing okay and just dealing with the intense heat. The spots could be some nutrient deficiency though. 

[Allen]

This thread made me think of one of Joe's videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMlLXqxz8sQ

 

[JRVL]

@Allen Yeah I initially didn't think it would have been a problem but I can't imagine anything else doing this other than the over watering. 

[JRVL]

So a total of 7 fronds totally dried up and cut off. Anyone know of this will hold out and survive or if it's just a lost cause? Two spears still green. 

[RJ]

Have you given it a round of an anti fungal treatment yet?

[JRVL]

@RJ I have not. Do you recommend daconil or copper fungicide?

[RJ]

2 minutes ago, JRVL said:

@RJ I have not. Do you recommend daconil or copper fungicide?

I’ve always used either hydrogen peroxide or copper fungicide. I’m very curious as to what’s going on I have a takil that is doing the same thing and I can’t figure out why. I’ve cut back on the watering hoping that might be it. I fear it will be a goner when I get back from vacation , it’s the only one I have 🤦‍♂️

[JRVL]

@RJ

Unfortunately my second trachy is now showing the same signs as this one did. Drooping has started and the base of the frond is turning brown and will probably work it's way up the leaflets just like the other. I stopped watering and made sure the soil dried up before watering again so I really don't know. 

It's been like 95-100 the past two weeks so maybe it's the sun and heat? I would really like to not replace two trees but the fix seems to be beyond me. I will try peroxide in the crown though since I have peroxide on hand. 

[Allen]

If you dug a hole and filled with potting soil or similar that is possibly the problem

[KPoff]

25 minutes ago, Allen said:

If you dug a hole and filled with potting soil or similar that is possibly the problem

@Allen out of curiosity what is the concern with using potting soil or mixing with native soil when planting in the ground.

[JRVL]

31 minutes ago, Allen said:

If you dug a hole and filled with potting soil or similar that is possibly the problem

I know I used just the clay soil I dug up when I planted my Phoenix. But I  believe I might have mixed in the extra soil leftover in the pot the trachy came in, but it wasn't a lot. Maybe I'll dig up some more clay and try to fill it in instead. That is, of this tree is even salvageable. I have a replacement ready, just don't want to give up if other people have seen a tree this bad off survive. 

[Allen]

1 hour ago, KPoff said:

@Allen out of curiosity what is the concern with using potting soil or mixing with native soil when planting in the ground.

You make a bathtub affect on a unestablished palm and at the same time add basically liquid fertilizer to burn the palm from the potting soil that has fertilizer added (Which most do). 

 

1 hour ago, JRVL said:

I know I used just the clay soil I dug up when I planted my Phoenix. But I  believe I might have mixed in the extra soil leftover in the pot the trachy came in, but it wasn't a lot. Maybe I'll dig up some more clay and try to fill it in instead. That is, of this tree is even salvageable. I have a replacement ready, just don't want to give up if other people have seen a tree this bad off survive. 

The newer fronds browning is really bad.  The only good is the spear is green but I would give that a tug.  I would let that dry out a lot and only water when necessary.  There is no green left on the plant for the water to go

[JRVL]

 

8 hours ago, Allen said:

You make a bathtub affect on a unestablished palm and at the same time add basically liquid fertilizer to burn the palm from the potting soil that has fertilizer added (Which most do). 

 

The newer fronds browning is really bad.  The only good is the spear is green but I would give that a tug.  I would let that dry out a lot and only water when necessary.  There is no green left on the plant for the water to go

I'm thinking of digging up my native soil and replacing any potting soil I used in my trachy that has just started showing signs and then transplanting the really bad one in it's replacement's pot to see if it can come back 

Unfortunately I can't stop the rain and it's been happening the last few days. How often do you water during the summer? I believe we can similar climates and soil 

[RJ]

53 minutes ago, JRVL said:

 

I'm thinking of digging up my native soil and replacing any potting soil I used in my trachy that has just started showing signs and then transplanting the really bad one in it's replacement's pot to see if it can come back 

Unfortunately I can't stop the rain and it's been happening the last few days. How often do you water during the summer? I believe we can similar climates and soil 

Not trying to hijack here but we’re in similar situations so it’s at least relevant 😉. I concluded last night if mine is still alive when I get home I’m digging it up, soaking it in root hormone and putting it back in a pot, hoping to get it to recover and replant it next spring.  We’ve had nearly zero rain for a couple week where I am in SC. 
 

in the summer I run my drip irrigation every other day. 

 

 

[Allen]

I think these palms can take ample water when healthy but not when compromised with rotting roots, poorly growing or put in a clay hole filled with water

[JRVL]

2 minutes ago, Allen said:

I think these palms can take ample water when healthy but not when compromised with rotting roots, poorly growing or put in a clay hole filled with water

Yeah, hopefully I can fix it with my native soil. How can you ever replace the soil already bound to the roots though? Doesn't that still create a bath tub effect?

I'll try to save the one that's still okay and if not try again next spring.

[Allen]

46 minutes ago, JRVL said:

Yeah, hopefully I can fix it with my native soil. How can you ever replace the soil already bound to the roots though? Doesn't that still create a bath tub effect?

I'll try to save the one that's still okay and if not try again next spring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsA2NEmK1Rg

Here is what I do.  It's not the only way to do things but all my palms grow extremely fast.  This palm is growing super well now 2 years later

If you get bored count how many bricks tall in video vs now

 

[JRVL]

2 hours ago, Allen said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsA2NEmK1Rg

Here is what I do.  It's not the only way to do things but all my palms grow extremely fast.  This palm is growing super well now 2 years later

If you get bored count how many bricks tall in video vs now

 

Looks great! I remember watching that video before I planted my Phoenix and then completely disregarded it unfortunately when planting the trachys. 

The worst ones spear pulled. I dug up the second and it was all potting soil. I expected standing water at the bottom but it was just very mushy. 

The tree has many nice white roots, but some also look rotten. Should I cut off the rotten before putting it back in with just clay?

[Allen]

33 minutes ago, JRVL said:

Looks great! I remember watching that video before I planted my Phoenix and then completely disregarded it unfortunately when planting the trachys. 

The worst ones spear pulled. I dug up the second and it was all potting soil. I expected standing water at the bottom but it was just very mushy. 

The tree has many nice white roots, but some also look rotten. Should I cut off the rotten before putting it back in with just clay?

If they are mushy then cut them.  

[JRVL]

50 minutes ago, Allen said:

If they are mushy then cut them.  

Thanks. Well it's back in the ground with only clay soil. I hope it makes it 

[JRVL]

@Allen

So I ended up having to replace both of the two trachys. The two new ones have been on the ground for a while and seem to be doing okay. I marked with a sharpy and they're both pushing growth, though slowly. 

The frond leaflets aren't open and flat like a lot of people's that I see. Is this common for nursery grown trees? Mine are essentially in full sun.

[Allen]

1 hour ago, JRVL said:

@Allen

The frond leaflets aren't open and flat like a lot of people's that I see. Is this common for nursery grown trees? Mine are essentially in full sun.

Not sure exactly what you mean by that.  Pics.  Lots of times nursery grown palms are grown under shade cloth and get 'stretched' and will get smaller subsequent fronds when grown outside

[JRVL]

@Allen Basically they're folded in. The first picture is the newest frond growing from my larger of the two. The second is what essentially all of the leaflets look on all of the other fronds.

 

[Allen]

45 minutes ago, JRVL said:

@Allen Basically they're folded in. The first picture is the newest frond growing from my larger of the two. The second is what essentially all of the leaflets look on all of the other fronds.

 

That's some really long lanky fronds!  I think as they grow outdoor they will grow shorter, firmer fronds than that.  But I haven't seen any fronds that long and skinny on a small palm.  Did it come from the nursery with folded fronds?  

[JRVL]

@AllenThey came from "Fast Growing Trees" who I won't purchase from again tbh, but they replaced the original set no charge so I can't hate on them too much.  But they're "15 gallon" trees are actually 7s seemingly moved into a 15g before shipping. At least in my case.

At first no they were more flat but I believe I planted them in August and it was very hot here. But when I got them most of the fronds were all dishevelled already and couldn't hold their weight.

And also, should I protect these this winter since they're small? I'm in essentially 8A 

[Fusca]

34 minutes ago, JRVL said:

@AllenThey came from "Fast Growing Trees" who I won't purchase from again tbh, but they replaced the original set no charge so I can't hate on them too much.  But they're "15 gallon" trees are actually 7s seemingly moved into a 15g before shipping. At least in my case.

At first no they were more flat but I believe I planted them in August and it was very hot here. But when I got them most of the fronds were all dishevelled already and couldn't hold their weight.

And also, should I protect these this winter since they're small? I'm in essentially 8A 

A grower in north Texas once told me that Trachycarpus fortunei that are smaller than 15-gallon size often spear-pull at temperatures as high as 20°F in its first winter in the ground.  It'll survive but will take some time and effort to recover.  If you don't want to deal with that I would protect this winter.  Obviously it can handle much colder temperatures after that without issue but it needs to get established first.

[JRVL]

46 minutes ago, Fusca said:

A grower in north Texas once told me that Trachycarpus fortunei that are smaller than 15-gallon size often spear-pull at temperatures as high as 20°F in its first winter in the ground.  It'll survive but will take some time and effort to recover.  If you don't want to deal with that I would protect this winter.  Obviously it can handle much colder temperatures after that without issue but it needs to get established first.

Noted.  Already have something in the works for my Phoenix, I'll get some more lights and stuff for these just in case. Ideally, it won't be more than a day or two where I need it but one never knows these days. 

[Harry’s Palms]

In Southern California they grow easily , taking full sun and copious water. Mine had sprinklers on it without negative impact , maybe it is our arid climate. Harry