Rhopalostylis baueri Seedlings Flourishing In Hot Full Sun

[Jim in Los Altos]

Who would have thought that these cool climate, shade loving palms would tolerate full all day sun as tiny seedlings. I harvested some seeds from the parent tree in the front yard and plopped some in various places in the yard last summer. These pictured, sprouted in full sun later last summer in areas that heat way up in the afternoon. One in the ground and two in a pot. They’ve endured many days in the 90s F with no burning. I’m baffled by this. Only a few of the full shade seeds sprouted and they are smaller, albeit deeper green, than the full sun ones.

Anyone else in a warm inland area experienced this? We’ve had three above 90°F days this May already. Luckily nighttime temps drop to mid and upper 50s. 
 

[Harry’s Palms]

I had a R. Sapida for many years in my super sunny courtyard. It looked great and grew to over 12’ tall. I had no idea they did not like the heat….until just a few years ago. Our summers average in the mid 80’s f and sometimes into the 90’s. It isn’t unusual to see triple digits when the high pressure systems hit in the fall. It started , almost without warning , sending out very small fronds and the healthy fronds got brown . Within a year it was gone. I did a bit of research and learned that they didn’t like hot sun. It gave no indication of this for about 15 years while it grew vigorously. I think , if I were to ever attempt another one , I would look for a cooler spot. There were three in a yard down the hill from me , they all died as well. Was it a warming climate? I dunno but that one year took out all four of the shaving brush palms in my neighborhood . Meanwhile my Chambroynia , Howea , Archontophoenix and others were unscathed. Harry

[James B]

Wow! I had a 25 gal Chatham Islands and a Baueri getting crispy in just 4 hours of sun at my old house. So I’ve been reluctant to add any in my current yard unless I know they will be in full shade. Beautiful palms and they grew decent for me aside from getting badly burnt.

[James B]

How many miles inland are you Jim? I’m 50 here. I realize due to our more southern location my sun is more intense than yours but that’s still pretty hardy of those little ones!

[Jim in Los Altos]

55 minutes ago, James B said:

How many miles inland are you Jim? I’m 50 here. I realize due to our more southern location my sun is more intense than yours but that’s still pretty hardy of those little ones!

Sixteen miles. Los Altos is in a valley (Santa Clara Valley). Temperatures fluctuate between the 70s and 90s this time of year. July through mid October are a bit hotter. No cloud cover to speak of at all either. 
 

 

[Harry’s Palms]

I would only add that if anyone can push a palm to perform , it would be @Jim in Los Altos . I mean , have you seen some of his garden pictures? I got a little over 15 years of enjoyment from my Shaving Brush palm , grown from a seedling . It was hard to say goodbye but it was quite a statement for many years and I am not sorry I grew it , I just wish I would’ve been smarter about where I placed it. It’s on me not the palm. Live and learn. Harry

[BayAndroid]

Hey Jim, would you happen to have a seedling you would be willing to sell? 

I currently have a Sapida (Great Barrier Island) growing in the ground. It is looking good! I must say though, the Baueri are some of the best looking palms you can grow in the Bay Area. Absolutely beautiful. 

[bubba]

I believe it is fair to say that Jim enjoys a beneficent climate. Inland enough to avoid ultra-marine layer. Close enough to the Pacific to enjoy lack of freezing temperatures. The best that the Mediterranean climate offers.

[Darold Petty]

Jim is too modest, of the NorCal gardens I have visited his is the best.  He reminds me of Pauleen Sullivan, who grew many palms that "Shouldn't be here" for her microclimate.  

[tinman10101]

hey jim. perhaps the seedlings are doing much better for you in higher temps because of your humidity level and length of time in full blazing heat.  perhaps you have a marine layer that burns off midday but here in the high desert, the sun is blazing from 8am to 5pm with very little humidity.  i know for me in the high desert, ropies leaves dessicate and dry out due to the dryness of the air and direct sunlight and of course, the santa ana winds. 

mines are of course in heavy shade and cooler north side of the house with higher humidity because of overgrown canopy.  just a thought.  regardless, your garden is always a joy to see when you post. 

cheers

tin

[Jim in Los Altos]

4 hours ago, tinman10101 said:

hey jim. perhaps the seedlings are doing much better for you in higher temps because of your humidity level and length of time in full blazing heat.  perhaps you have a marine layer that burns off midday but here in the high desert, the sun is blazing from 8am to 5pm with very little humidity.  i know for me in the high desert, ropies leaves dessicate and dry out due to the dryness of the air and direct sunlight and of course, the santa ana winds. 

mines are of course in heavy shade and cooler north side of the house with higher humidity because of overgrown canopy.  just a thought.  regardless, your garden is always a joy to see when you post. 

cheers

tin

Tin, We don’t have much of any marine layer here. Our skies this time of year are pretty much cloudless. If we do get any coastal clouds at all, they burn off very early in the morning. We have decent humidity during average summer temperatures (40-60% daytime) but heat waves are very dry. 20% relative humidity occurs when it gets into the 90s. Thankfully that doesn’t happen often. This past week that happened one afternoon. Looks like next week it will again. No Santa Ana’s here though!  

[Jim in Los Altos]

14 hours ago, BayAndroid said:

Hey Jim, would you happen to have a seedling you would be willing to sell? 

I currently have a Sapida (Great Barrier Island) growing in the ground. It is looking good! I must say though, the Baueri are some of the best looking palms you can grow in the Bay Area. Absolutely beautiful. 

Sure Will. The two in this pot can be yours if you like. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

5 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Jim is too modest, of the NorCal gardens I have visited his is the best.  He reminds me of Pauleen Sullivan, who grew many palms that "Shouldn't be here" for her microclimate.  

Darold, Thank you for the kind words. Your garden is truly an inspiration of course! 

[Harry’s Palms]

6 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Jim is too modest, of the NorCal gardens I have visited his is the best.  He reminds me of Pauleen Sullivan, who grew many palms that "Shouldn't be here" for her microclimate.  

You are right about Jim . From what I’ve seen posted here , a magnificent garden. Pauline was my inspiration early on. I would ride my bike by her house and just gaze at the paradise she created on a small residential lot. My mentor worked for her and her husband when they owned a palm nursery. Then I met her son Terry and he showed me their other properties and invited me to the 10 acres on the big island but I never went. I never got to meet Pauline but I heard some interesting stories about her escapades to locate palms and seeds to bring home. Harry

[tim_brissy_13]

Different experience here Jim. I’ve planted R baueri from seedling size in a variety of positions in my garden. Those that receive any amount of sun bleach and burn pretty badly while those under canopy look near flawless. I’m slightly cooler than you overall and further away from the equator, so I’d suspect we may have lower humidity during sunny days. Adult R baueri take the sun here, but don’t look as deep green as those in at least partial shade. 

[Darold Petty]

38 minutes ago, Harry’s Palms said:

 I never got to meet Pauline but I heard some interesting stories about her escapades to locate palms and seeds to bring home. Harry

When I used to visit Pauleen she would drive us to lunch, and then always grab the check.

During the 1984 Biennial in Queensland we went an an all-day 4-wheel drive trek way off the paved roads on abandoned logging tracks. Four men carried her chair from the vehicle through the bush for a closer look at palms.   

[Jim in Los Altos]

1 hour ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Different experience here Jim. I’ve planted R baueri from seedling size in a variety of positions in my garden. Those that receive any amount of sun bleach and burn pretty badly while those under canopy look near flawless. I’m slightly cooler than you overall and further away from the equator, so I’d suspect we may have lower humidity during sunny days. Adult R baueri take the sun here, but don’t look as deep green as those in at least partial shade. 

I’m a bit mystified about these full sun seedlings. Even my big trunking bauri in mostly shade will brown tip any fronds getting and direct sun in the summer. Will eagerly await growth progress on the seedlings this summer. 

[Tyrone]

R baueri are definitely more heat tolerant than sapida. I’ve found at least with the Chatham Island sapida, that you can hit the limiting high temp point rather abruptly and it’s all over. Of course that makes sense because I think the Chatham Islands have never seen temps higher than 25C being at 44S in the southern Pacific, whereas Norfolk Island being much further north at 28S could most likely hit 30C in a hot spell, but probably nothing more. It would be interesting to see how the full sun seedlings go at 100F, but at 110F they would be long gone I reckon. 
I had one 45C (113F) day in summer that took out 2 healthy Chatham Island sapida that were in full shade, except for one slither of break in the canopy and they died that day. Ones next to them were fine. The same palms handled a 42C (108F)day without an issue. 

[Jonathan]

7 hours ago, Tyrone said:

R baueri are definitely more heat tolerant than sapida. I’ve found at least with the Chatham Island sapida, that you can hit the limiting high temp point rather abruptly and it’s all over. Of course that makes sense because I think the Chatham Islands have never seen temps higher than 25C being at 44S in the southern Pacific, whereas Norfolk Island being much further north at 28S could most likely hit 30C in a hot spell, but probably nothing more. It would be interesting to see how the full sun seedlings go at 100F, but at 110F they would be long gone I reckon. 
I had one 45C (113F) day in summer that took out 2 healthy Chatham Island sapida that were in full shade, except for one slither of break in the canopy and they died that day. Ones next to them were fine. The same palms handled a 42C (108F)day without an issue. 

I wonder if soil moisture is a major factor in that equation Tyrone?

We don't get many days above 35C (95F) here and they are usually pretty accurately forecast, so I try to get out and water heavily in advance. I haven't noticed much damage under those circumstances. However I've lost Rhopies at 25C with dry soil, just this previous summer, which was horrendously dry down here, but without extreme heat. The combination of both is always going to be fatal obviously!

[Harry’s Palms]

Also , perhaps age? When my Sapida got large is when death by heat occurred. I would have said it was some sort of anomaly but the other three in my neighborhood also went. All were in full sun and looked great until that one year. The other three were a bit older than mine , which had at least 6’ of trunk below the crown shaft. As I said in a previous post , I had no idea that they were sensitive to heat . My courtyard can get pretty warm in early afternoon when the sun beats down on it. The Archontophoenix Alexandiana thrives there , about seven feet from where my Sapida was planted. Just in the last couple of years is when I learned that they like a cooler spot. Hopefully Jim’s Baueri will be more forgiving. Harry

[Motlife]

Nikau are generally quite tolerant of sun, at least without very hot temperatures, in NZ. I've seen many get planted out into sun, the leaves will burn, but theyll look fine within a couple of years, at least where I am.

 

The most extreme temperatures they probably naturally encounter, strangely enough, are sapidas in the southern part of their mainland range in Canterbury, where it can get up to 40c, or close to it, every few years. Baueri wouldn't ever see more than 30ish, but neither do sapidas in most of their range. 

 

Another thing to consider is the sun here compared to California. Where I am at 41S can have a UV index of 13-14 around the summer solstice. And the kermadecs and norfolk are over 10 degrees closer to the equator, so I'd imagine peak at 16 or 17? So possibly a UV index of 10 or so in a California summer doesn't seem too bad to them as long as they're watered well and the temps aren't too crazy high? Particularly if they got the sun early in their lives. Maybe the leaves that burn are because they developed in shade? 

 

Has anyone noticed any major cultural differences in the two species/different varieties? From what I've seen they all handle similar amounts of sun, cold etc as long as they have time to adapt. But I'm not sure about heat! 

[Jim in Los Altos]

9 hours ago, Motlife said:

Nikau are generally quite tolerant of sun, at least without very hot temperatures, in NZ. I've seen many get planted out into sun, the leaves will burn, but theyll look fine within a couple of years, at least where I am.

 

The most extreme temperatures they probably naturally encounter, strangely enough, are sapidas in the southern part of their mainland range in Canterbury, where it can get up to 40c, or close to it, every few years. Baueri wouldn't ever see more than 30ish, but neither do sapidas in most of their range. 

 

Another thing to consider is the sun here compared to California. Where I am at 41S can have a UV index of 13-14 around the summer solstice. And the kermadecs and norfolk are over 10 degrees closer to the equator, so I'd imagine peak at 16 or 17? So possibly a UV index of 10 or so in a California summer doesn't seem too bad to them as long as they're watered well and the temps aren't too crazy high? Particularly if they got the sun early in their lives. Maybe the leaves that burn are because they developed in shade? 

 

Has anyone noticed any major cultural differences in the two species/different varieties? From what I've seen they all handle similar amounts of sun, cold etc as long as they have time to adapt. But I'm not sure about heat! 

Scott, The difference here in my area is nearly 100% cloudless skies in the summer and occasional heat waves that are also very dry humidity wise. These little palms have experienced over 100°F (38°C to 41°C) a few times and multiple highs in the 90s (33-37°C) in full sun with relative humidity in the 20% range. Also, our average summer daily highs are in the middle 80s (30°C). Saving grace may be cool nighttime temps and the fact that I water them often. 

[Motlife]

Oh for sure Jim, it sounds like pretty hard conditions for nikau out in the sun, and certainly worse than they'd have to deal with in the wild. I was just thinking that having some wild populations survive similar hot dry conditions, if only for a few days at a time, must mean the genetics have that capability in there somewhere. Similar to some palms having great cold tolerance even though they would never see that in their habitat, but the trait has hung on for some reason or another. 

Maybe you just got really lucky with that batch! Or maybe they would generally do OK as young plants in the sun, but everybody normally grows them in the shade? The cool nights thing must make a difference too for sure. I'm going to the west coast today where they're just everywhere, so I might grab some seeds and put the seedlings straight into some sun just to see what happens! 

[Jim in Los Altos]

19 minutes ago, Motlife said:

Oh for sure Jim, it sounds like pretty hard conditions for nikau out in the sun, and certainly worse than they'd have to deal with in the wild. I was just thinking that having some wild populations survive similar hot dry conditions, if only for a few days at a time, must mean the genetics have that capability in there somewhere. Similar to some palms having great cold tolerance even though they would never see that in their habitat, but the trait has hung on for some reason or another. 

Maybe you just got really lucky with that batch! Or maybe they would generally do OK as young plants in the sun, but everybody normally grows them in the shade? The cool nights thing must make a difference too for sure. I'm going to the west coast today where they're just everywhere, so I might grab some seeds and put the seedlings straight into some sun just to see what happens! 

This particular one has been producing lots of seed so I may put a few more in the ground in the very few sunny areas I’ve got. All my trunking Rhopalostylis are growing in shaded parts of the garden. 

[Tyrone]

On 6/2/2024 at 4:05 PM, Jonathan said:

I wonder if soil moisture is a major factor in that equation Tyrone?

We don't get many days above 35C (95F) here and they are usually pretty accurately forecast, so I try to get out and water heavily in advance. I haven't noticed much damage under those circumstances. However I've lost Rhopies at 25C with dry soil, just this previous summer, which was horrendously dry down here, but without extreme heat. The combination of both is always going to be fatal obviously!

All my garden is well irrigated and nothing dries out even in the hottest weather down here. There comes a point where adding extra soil moisture does little and the heat just stir fries the plant. We are talking extreme heat though, not just a 38C day.

[Jonathan]

Yep, 45 is ridiculous heat...probably not many palms that would love that.

Maybe Livistona mariae!

[Jonathan]

15 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

This particular one has been producing lots of seed so I may put a few more in the ground in the very few sunny areas I’ve got. All my trunking Rhopalostylis are growing in shaded parts of the garden. 

Crikey! Lock that thing up Jim, before it eats someone.

[DoomsDave]

7 hours ago, Jonathan said:

Crikey! Lock that thing up Jim, before it eats someone.

I've got one like it, and it purrs when you pet it . . . .

[Jonathan]

1 hour ago, DoomsDave said:

I've got one like it, and it purrs when you pet it . . . .

Got all your fingers still Dave?

[Jim in Los Altos]

12 hours ago, Jonathan said:

Crikey! Lock that thing up Jim, before it eats someone.

“Crikey,” a term I don’t hear often but I like it! 

[DoomsDave]

On 6/1/2024 at 2:33 PM, Darold Petty said:

When I used to visit Pauleen she would drive us to lunch, and then always grab the check.

During the 1984 Biennial in Queensland we went an an all-day 4-wheel drive trek way off the paved roads on abandoned logging tracks. Four men carried her chair from the vehicle through the bush for a closer look at palms.   

I remember reading about how she went to New Guinea or a place like that and these tribesmen hauled her, wheelchair and all, across rivers teeming with crocodiles.

[DoomsDave]

@Jim in Los Altos Great thread!

I've found Rhopie baueri to take sun much better than expected AND deep shade, too. I've grown them (and sapidas) in deep almost closet like shade as babies.

My big seeding specimens are pretty much canopy trees now, though I suppose they get a bit of protection from the Archie tuckeri towering nearby. Big Cheese is about 20 feet tall now.

They're this obscene shade of dark green with highlights of various colors (or colours if you prefer); I'm pretty sure someone'll slap a tax on them. Lots of seeds and lots of babies.

Sapidas, on the other hand, don't like the high heat as much, though they appear to be able to acclimate, especially as larger plants.

[DoomsDave]

On 6/2/2024 at 6:28 AM, Harry’s Palms said:

Also , perhaps age? When my Sapida got large is when death by heat occurred. I would have said it was some sort of anomaly but the other three in my neighborhood also went. All were in full sun and looked great until that one year. The other three were a bit older than mine , which had at least 6’ of trunk below the crown shaft. As I said in a previous post , I had no idea that they were sensitive to heat . My courtyard can get pretty warm in early afternoon when the sun beats down on it. The Archontophoenix Alexandiana thrives there , about seven feet from where my Sapida was planted. Just in the last couple of years is when I learned that they like a cooler spot. Hopefully Jim’s Baueri will be more forgiving. Harry

Try some baueri, especially cheesemanii. Keep them well watered, and you'll have a fighting chance, especially if the Santa Anas leave you alone, like they do to me, mostly.

[DoomsDave]

On 5/31/2024 at 5:38 PM, James B said:

Wow! I had a 25 gal Chatham Islands and a Baueri getting crispy in just 4 hours of sun at my old house. So I’ve been reluctant to add any in my current yard unless I know they will be in full shade. Beautiful palms and they grew decent for me aside from getting badly burnt.

Yeah, I recommend shade especially in the afternoon, where you are. Unlike me, you'll get hotter and drier and those Stan Anal Winds roar on through and tend to dry up everything. But, maybe try some in the lee side of your house, with plenty of water?

[Harry’s Palms]

I have had a R. Baueri Cheesmanii acclimating on my patio in mostly shade since my trip to @DoomsDave . It is the last to be planted and I will look for a nice spot this weekend . It is looking very nice and happy in the container with no more leaning over . The stem has found footing and is no longer wobbly but solid . I want to find shade and cooler afternoon temps during our warm summer afternoons but still have room for growth . I can see that they can get moderately large in time. Harry