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Posted

Besides the Cocos nucifera, how many different coconut palms are there?

I know, I could research this on the Net, but what fun is that?

Its more fun to talk to you guys about it.

This is my Lytocarium weddellianum that Kyle helped me pick out at the USF sale. I also have a Lyto hoehnii.

I'd like to see other forms of coconut, show me yours!DSCN5658.jpg

"You can't see California without Marlon Brando's eyes"---SliPknot

 

Posted

There's only one species, nucifera, in the genus Cocos, but there are many (dozens?) of cultivars.

SoCal and SoFla; zone varies by location.

'Home is where the heart suitcase is'...

_____

"If, as they say, there truly is no rest for the wicked, how can the Devil's workshop be filled with idle hands?"

Posted

I was once told by Dave Romney (Expert on Coconut Research in South Florida) that there was somewhere around 200 varieties worldwide.

  I finally broke down earlier this year and planted 3 Fiji/Somoan Dwarf's in the yard. I'm worried about bringing in Lethal Yellowing.These were plants that I started from seed that came off of trees on the island of Molakai in Hawaii. The area had many of this particular variety growing there with no others around.

Jeff

  • Like 1

Searle Brothers Nursery Inc.

and The Rainforest Collection.

Southwest Ranches,Fl.

Posted

If Cocos is the only genus of coconut palm, why is Lytocarium wedellianum called "Miniature Coconut Palm" and Lytocarium hoehnii called "Hoehne's Miniature Coconut Palm"?

DO they not really make coconuts?

"You can't see California without Marlon Brando's eyes"---SliPknot

 

Posted

Once again the use of common names instead of binomial nomenclature causes confusion...

:cool:

How about V. gerardii... The "Forest Coconut Palm"?

I think the use of the word coconut is common names tends to refer to seeds that have three holes on the top of them...  I forgot what those are called....

Posted

Sooo, the seeds in no way resemble coconuts, and are not edible??

Maybe these are the classification "fake coconuts" like the fakey dypsis ambositrae, LOL

"You can't see California without Marlon Brando's eyes"---SliPknot

 

Posted

Don't get me wrong... The Lytocarium wedd.seeds look just like mini coconuts...  Little brown furryish things with three black spots on the top... (Dang, I just potted up 9 of em to 1g's and discarded the empty seeds a week ago!) And if memory serves, they are edible and are very similar to C. nucifera meat...  But then again many palm seed's guts are similar to C. nucifera... Borassus aethieopum is almost the exact same, this one I have taste tested! :D

Posted

The common names "minature" and "forest" coconut do have something to do with their relatedness to the coconut. There are 22 genera in the Arecaceae that fall under the tribe Cocoeae. All the species in these genera are related to the coconut most importantly by the shared, derived trait (synapomorphy) of three or more "eyes" or germination pores on the hardened seed endocarp. Other distinguishing characteristics exist supporting the monophylly strong relatedness) of the tribe, but th previous characteristic is the most non-ambiguous-especially for the layman.The tribe is also commonly divided up into the spiny and non-spiny cocoids. Here are a few of the 22 genera in the Cocoeae-I am sure everyone can identify the spiny from the non-spiny: Aiphanes, Desmoncus, Lytocaryum, Syagrus, Astrocaryum, Bactris, Gastrococcos, Elaeis, Allagoptera, Polyandrococos, Butia, Jubea, Parajubea, Attalea, Jubaeopsis, Beccariophoenix, Voanioala, Barcella. Also amazing is the fact this tribe is distributed disruptively throughout the world and  has an extensice pollen record showing many species have gone extinct since ancient times. One famous recent extinction is the Easter island cocoid-Pashcalcoccos(sp?).

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Posted

Very interesting comment, Jason.

From the 22 Cocoeae genera listed in your post , all of them (except the 3 Africans: Voanioala, Beccariophoenix and Jubaeopsis) are native to South America and Caribbean, and not a single one is found anywhere else, none in the Pacific.

My question is: How come Cocos nucifera, which seems to me (as a non-botanist) to represent the top evolutionary genus in the tribe, be considered originated from the Pacific and therefore endemic to a very distant area from its close relatives in the Cocosoid family, originated in the opposite part of the globe?

Is there any other scientific evidence supporting this Pacific theory that I should be aware of?

post-157-1194477530_thumb.jpg

Sirinhaém beach, 80 Km south of Recife - Brazil

Tropical oceanic climate, latitude 8° S

Temperature extremes: 25 to 31°C

2000 mm average rainfall, dry summers

Posted

I would have to assume the parajubaea species has nothing to do with the cocos.

Any estimates on how old the Cocos nucifera species is?

Meteorologist and PhD student in Climate Science

Posted

The most recent extensive analysis-both phylogenetic and ancient pollen and fossil-point towards Parajubea being the closest relative to Cocos and this study by Gunn hypothesizes that the progenitor of Cocos started in the Neotropics. So it is very possible the Coconut was originally from South America and subsequently was distributed to all other parts of the world.

Posted

The International Coconut Genebank lists 91 cultivars of C. nucifera in South Asia alone (banked germplasm that they have).

Doug Gavilanes

Garden Grove, CA.

Zone 10A (10B on really good days...)

Posted

It should be noted in this thread that HUMANS are responsable for the extream differences between coconuts. As with any important crop we have selected, isolated, crossed, and otherwise manipulated cocnuts so as to select variations that suit our needs. Even for ornamental uses (which make up only a fraction of coconuts worldwide) we select for many characteristics that are specific for our landscape uses. Tall, short, yellow, red, green, spicate, fat, skinny, you name it, it exisits.

I DIG PALMS

Call me anytime to chat about transplanting palms.

305-345-8918

https://www.facebook...KenJohnsonPalms

Posted

Ken brought up something important. I mentioned before the progenitor of  Cocos nucifera is hypothesized to be from the Neotropics. From there it could have dispersed via its bouyant seed to anywhere. From some point in time man/woman began to depend on the coconut for a multitude of uses and brought it to all the far off locales that were colonized. Since plants are known to adapt to different climatic, soil, etc conditions in different ways the within species variation of the species probably became readily evident at some point. Like any crop of importance humans artificially select varieties, cultivars, etc as a response to their liking something better about it. I want to emphasize that humans are only indirectly responsible for the variation though-at least for the coconut; until transgenic manipulation allows  people inWisconsin to start growing coconut palms in their yards.

Posted

Oh crap....

Now I have to have a Lytocaryum weddellianum.

Thanks.  :angry:

Hollywood Hills West, Los Angeles, CA USA

Southwest facing canyon | Altitude 600 - 775 feet | Decomposing granite
USDA Zone 10b | AHS 6 | Sunset Zone 23 | Köppen Csb | No frost or freezes
Average Low 49 F°/9.4 C° | Average High 79 F°/28.8 C° | Average Rainfall 20"/50.8 cm

Posted

I snapped this off epalmetum.com to show the genus in the same tribe as coco. We can't all grow cocos, but I'm just glad to be able to grow many that are related and have similarities.

post-662-1194502888_thumb.jpg

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

  • 2 years later...
Posted

I think Voanioala is the closest relative to Cocos nucifera.

:mrlooney:

CoconutFreak.

Northern Sydney, Central Coast Region. Zone 10a.

Temperature Extremes: -4 to +43

Warm Oceanic Temperate/Humid Subtropical Climate.

33 Degrees South.

Loving Palms!!!

Posted

I've been to Wisconsin many times.....in the winter time. It will be a cold day in hell before ANY palm will grow outside there without extreme protection. It ain't palm country.

Dick

  • Upvote 1

Richard Douglas

Posted

My interest for collecting and growing palms started 20 years ago when I was looking for all the available cultivars and varieties of Cocos nucifera for our property on the beach. Along these years, I've managed to gather 18 different varieties, from several different origins in Brazil and abroad. I must confess that my main interest in growing all these cocos was not for esthetic and horticultural purposes {coconuts are THE most common palms around here, by far} and I was interested in tasting the water of different cultivars and compare the taste, production rate, size of fruits, etc...

Here are a few pictures of my coconuts, in very dry season, end of summer now...

post-157-12688719009843_thumb.jpg

post-157-1268871929729_thumb.jpg

Sirinhaém beach, 80 Km south of Recife - Brazil

Tropical oceanic climate, latitude 8° S

Temperature extremes: 25 to 31°C

2000 mm average rainfall, dry summers

Posted

...

post-157-12688721190218_thumb.jpg

post-157-12688721665901_thumb.jpg

post-157-12688721991423_thumb.jpg

Sirinhaém beach, 80 Km south of Recife - Brazil

Tropical oceanic climate, latitude 8° S

Temperature extremes: 25 to 31°C

2000 mm average rainfall, dry summers

Posted

...

post-157-1268872333103_thumb.jpg

post-157-12688723588841_thumb.jpg

post-157-12688723902355_thumb.jpg

Sirinhaém beach, 80 Km south of Recife - Brazil

Tropical oceanic climate, latitude 8° S

Temperature extremes: 25 to 31°C

2000 mm average rainfall, dry summers

Posted

...

post-157-12688724974966_thumb.jpg

post-157-12688725288271_thumb.jpg

post-157-12688725673446_thumb.jpg

Sirinhaém beach, 80 Km south of Recife - Brazil

Tropical oceanic climate, latitude 8° S

Temperature extremes: 25 to 31°C

2000 mm average rainfall, dry summers

Posted

...

post-157-12688727321902_thumb.jpg

Sirinhaém beach, 80 Km south of Recife - Brazil

Tropical oceanic climate, latitude 8° S

Temperature extremes: 25 to 31°C

2000 mm average rainfall, dry summers

Posted

I've been to Wisconsin many times.....in the winter time. It will be a cold day in hell before ANY palm will grow outside there without extreme protection. It ain't palm country.

Dick

Your gonna bum Jason out use Montana instead. Thanks Don:D:D

Posted

I think Voanioala is the closest relative to Cocos nucifera.

:mrlooney:

I think so also. GPII would be the best source of this information. Unfortunately I'm on the road right now but can look it up this weekend.

The current accepted classification of the tribe Cocoseae is:

Subtribe Attaleinae

  • Allagoptera
  • Attalea
  • Beccariophoenix
  • Butia
  • Cocos
  • Jubaea
  • Jubaeopsis
  • Lytocaryum
  • Parajubaea
  • Syagrus
  • Voanioala

Subtribe Bactridinae

  • Acrocomia
  • Aiphanes
  • Astrocaryum
  • Bactris
  • Desmoncus

Subtribe Elaeidinae

  • Barcella
  • Elaeis

Gastrococos for example is no longer a separate genus, and is officially called Acrocomia crispa.

I agree that the common names only make things more confusing. Double-coconut for example couldn't be more genetically distant as a palm from a real coconut.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

Just got the new issue of Palms. Page number 4 talks about a new study using DNA that says that Syagrus is the closest living relative.

Here is the article they cite

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0007353

It seems that the wheel was finally re-invented... :lol::lol::lol::D

Look at this conclusion, from the paper mentioned above:

Range extensions of Syagrus, first into contiguous Southern Brazil and Argentina-Paraguay, did not occur until the mid-Miocene (Fig. 2, 3), with even later dispersal of the genus into Amazonas, Northern South America, and the West Indies. Despite its subsequent pantropical distribution, the crown node of Cocos nucifera is unambiguously positioned in eastern Brazil.

Sirinhaém beach, 80 Km south of Recife - Brazil

Tropical oceanic climate, latitude 8° S

Temperature extremes: 25 to 31°C

2000 mm average rainfall, dry summers

Posted

I did not realize how many varieties of coconut there are!

Does the milk actually taste different between the cultivars?

Regards

Stephen

Stephen

Broome Western Australia

Where the desert meets the sea

Tropical Monsoon

Posted

Guess it makes sense that syagrus is the closest genetic relative to the Coconut - wasn't syagrus romanzoffiana originally classified in the Cocos genus - cocos plumosa?

AS in SA,

Santa Ana - CA.

Posted

I did not realize how many varieties of coconut there are!

Does the milk actually taste different between the cultivars?

Regards

Stephen

Hi Stephen,

What you call milk, the liquid part of the endosperm, we prefer to call "water". By milk we describe a blended mixture of the soft part of the endosperm (copra) and it's white and used for culinary purposes.

Natural coconut water tastes very different among the Cocos nucifera varieties. Dwarf subspecies are best suited for coconut water production and the fruits are harvested at the unripe stage for this objective, at the point when the copra is starting to form. It is actually my favorite drink here, rich in potassium and very refreshing...I drink at least 3 coconuts everyday and our fridge is always full of them especially during summer.

This is actually a fast growing industry here in Brazil, where natural isotonic beverages are in high demand, especially at the non-producing big towns in the South/Southeast like São Paulo and Rio.

Even the popstar Madonna, now living part time in Rio, has just bought a major participation in a bottling local industry, with growing plans to increase the export to US market, the sales are already strong in New York city for the reports we've seen on TV lately. The prices have more than doubled here lately and I'm glad we have our own small production in the backyard... :rolleyes:

Now that the Science is finally comming to the conclusion that Cocos nucifera is in fact a native palm from my area, what I was long suspecting, I'll be planting another one of these special palms this weekend to celebrate the fact...

Cheers

post-157-12702138189314_thumb.jpg

Sirinhaém beach, 80 Km south of Recife - Brazil

Tropical oceanic climate, latitude 8° S

Temperature extremes: 25 to 31°C

2000 mm average rainfall, dry summers

Posted

Fascinating, thankyou for the information.

Good luck with the coconut grove!

Regards

Stephen

Stephen

Broome Western Australia

Where the desert meets the sea

Tropical Monsoon

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

I've been to Wisconsin many times.....in the winter time. It will be a cold day in hell before ANY palm will grow outside there without extreme protection. It ain't palm country.

Dick

*sigh*, I live in Wisconsin, and you obviously don't know what the term hardy really means. I'm trying Sabal Minor this winter, and according to Palm guide, it's marginal in 5B, I'm 5b and I will make it live here...

Milwaukee, WI to Ocala, FL

Posted

The common name for S. romanzoffianum around here is Cocos palm. Probably from its old name of Cocos plumosa, as AS in SA mentioned. I doubt many people would even know the rommie's actual name, cocos is so widely used. Stephen, to get the right taste, you put the lime in the coconut and drink them both up......

Peachy

I came. I saw. I purchased

 

 

27.35 south.

Warm subtropical, with occasional frosts.

Posted

The common name for S. romanzoffianum around here is Cocos palm. Probably from its old name of Cocos plumosa, as AS in SA mentioned. I doubt many people would even know the rommie's actual name, cocos is so widely used. Stephen, to get the right taste, you put the lime in the coconut and drink them both up......

Peachy

Hi Peachy,

I will remember that, just have to remembers the limes....

Regards

Stephen

Stephen

Broome Western Australia

Where the desert meets the sea

Tropical Monsoon

  • 3 years later...
Posted

Coco Loco :mrlooney:

Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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