Allagoptera arenaria in cooler climates?

[Jonathan]

I asked this question in another thread but probably wasn't the right place to get noticed. Just wondering whether anyone in coastal Nth California or similar climates has had any success with this species?

My plant below was probably 10 years old when I got it and is now probably 20, so ridiculously slow.  Always looks green and happy but suspect it needs proper heat to grow at any pace, which my climate can't provide.

My days of zone pushing delicate palms to watch them wither and die are long gone, so would be happy to keep this little guy as an interesting pot plant, unless there's a chance of picking up speed in the ground at some point? For reference the climate here is a solid Howea/Archontophoenix/Ceroxylon zone, no real heat, no real cold.

Cheers Jonathan 

[richnorm]

Hey welcome back! If you start at that size they seem to live and look great in-ground given plenty of sun but are terribly slow.  I only had a small plant in part sun which eventually faded away after many years.

[Jonathan]

Hi Rich, yeah I've been in the wilderness (not literally!) for a few years pursuing other interests. Gave up on palms a bit after years of struggling with our ridiculous dry conditions here at South Arm but a couple of years ago we bought another property which has good water and reasonable soil, so my interest has been rekindled. Happily in the meantime my potted collection has kept on growing so I now have lots of good sized palms to plant out in the new garden. Have been quietly digging out struggling survivors here and transplanting with generally good results, although I do have to admit to murdering a good sized Ceroxylon by misjudging the root depth and slicing through the stem...oops. 

Regarding the Allagoptera tho, your experience is what I'm trying to avoid, so thanks for the feedback.

[happypalms]

Hi Jonathan I have them planted in the ground in my garden with temperatures as low as 2 degrees Celsius possibly colder the area in which I live about 5 kilometres away as the crow flies it gets down to minus 2 degrees Celsius so it does take the cold I would not recommend frost but definitely Coll tolerant although Tasmania is not your warm subtropical climate I think to many chill hours below a certain temperature may be it’s end in the cold wet ground the soil temperature would just be to cold my ones are slow to grow and from what I see about germinating them they need a lot of constant heat maybe it destiny is to grow in a pot but Tim Brisbane on palm talk might be interested in it if you want to get rid of it to a good home good luck or move to the Sunshine Coast and live the palm growers dream 

[Jonathan]

3 hours ago, happypalms said:

or move to the Sunshine Coast and live the palm growers dream

Haha, not in your life! I'm a natural born contrarian...if I moved there I'd want to grow roses and apples, which would be very sad.

I enjoy the challenge, but I think you're right, not enough heat here. Having said that, there's no way that  @tim_brissy_13 is getting his mitts on it. You mainlanders are spoiled for choice!

[happypalms]

47 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

Haha, not in your life! I'm a natural born contrarian...if I moved there I'd want to grow roses and apples, which would be very sad.

I enjoy the challenge, but I think you're right, not enough heat here. Having said that, there's no way that  @tim_brissy_13 is getting his mitts on it. You mainlanders are spoiled for choice!

Yes and have a nice hedge you can topiary living the life in over 55s retirement village I will let Tim know you have one for sale 🤣I don’t know how you guys grow anything that looks tropical in chilly Tasmania it’s not for me I will stick with my subtropical garden for now.

[tim_brissy_13]

2 hours ago, Jonathan said:

Haha, not in your life! I'm a natural born contrarian...if I moved there I'd want to grow roses and apples, which would be very sad.

I enjoy the challenge, but I think you're right, not enough heat here. Having said that, there's no way that  @tim_brissy_13 is getting his mitts on it. You mainlanders are spoiled for choice!

Don’t worry Jonathan, thanks to @happypalms I already have an A arenaria in my collection. I’ve only got to wait about 20 years from a 1 leaf seedling to reach the size of yours 😆

[Jonathan]

2 hours ago, happypalms said:

Yes and have a nice hedge you can topiary living the life in over 55s retirement village I will let Tim know you have one for sale 🤣I don’t know how you guys grow anything that looks tropical in chilly Tasmania it’s not for me I will stick with my subtropical garden for now.

But they look  cute in the snow...

[Jonathan]

55 minutes ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Don’t worry Jonathan, thanks to @happypalms I already have an A arenaria in my collection. I’ve only got to wait about 20 years from a 1 leaf seedling to reach the size of yours 😆

You can join me in the retirement village Tim!

[Merlyn]

@Jonathan I can say for sure that Allagoptera Arenaria is very cold tolerant.  Several clumps the size of yours (or a bit larger) survived 24-25F with frost (-4C) with little to no visible damage.  The only ones that have taken actual cold damage were a couple of strap-leaf seedlings I planted just before a 28F heavy snowlike frost.  And they all survived with some leaf burn.  Various reports here have them taking significant damage below 23F.

That doesn't necessarily mean they are long-term "cool tolerant."  I'd think full sun is a good choice, especially during winter.

[Jonathan]

7 hours ago, Merlyn said:

That doesn't necessarily mean they are long-term "cool tolerant." 

Yes, I think that's the major point here, and one often overlooked by growers looking to zone push.

Our winters are typically a few months of maximums around 12-13C so low to mid 50s F, with nights down to around 5C, low 40s F, and occasional light frost. It's not extremely cold and certainly our absolute low temps wouldn't test species tolerant to the temperatures you mentioned above....but...there's the trap for young players. 

When my palm madness really kicked in hard the first time, in the early 2000s the internet was new and fresh and full of stories of tropical plants surviving in climates that get a lot colder than mine. So I dutifully bought Bismarkia, Dypsis decaryi, Syagrus schizophylla and bunch of similar species reputed to survive temperatures way lower than we ever get. What I failed to take into account - wilfully I think in retrospect, because zone pushing can become a form of self denial - was that the reports of hardiness were coming from climates where either/both the day temps rebound significantly and the winters are short and sharp with a quick return to warmer conditions. 

I believe this is critical to understand when considering a big zone push. Reading some threads from the last few years about palms in London, I could see all the same enthusiastic delusions manifesting that us Taswegians went through 15 years ago! Spoiler alert: you won't get golden cane palms to grow in a climate almost identical to ours. And unfortunately those guys have the added spectre of a minus 10C continental freeze inevitably on the horizon, a burden we never have to worry about. It's truly amazing what will grow in climates like London, but to maintain a sense of perspective can save a lot of disappointment later...if I  could turn back the clock I would do things very differently, hence the question in this thread. Strive for trunking Howeas, Livistona and Rhopies that are beautiful and known to be cool tolerant before falling on the sword of Dypsis! It's wishful thinking though, because humans do love to learn the hard way, it's like a form of ritual initiation...you must kill 20 species to be a member of our cult! 

Ha! Sorry, just went on a philosophical rampage...the tentative joys of your own thread. I think though that I also just answered my own question.

[Jonathan]

Oh, and if I had five of these this size I'd probably still plant three out and watch them die! 

Vixi liber et moriar.

[Jim in Los Altos]

This pitiful little thing is the only one I’ve got up here in Northern CA and it’s been through its first winter in the ground and, now that it’s warmed up, a new spear is showing but it’s obviously very young. It gets 3/4 day full sun. I’m hopeful for at least a couple of leaves this summer. 

[tim_brissy_13]

27 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

Yes, I think that's the major point here, and one often overlooked by growers looking to zone push.

Our winters are typically a few months of maximums around 12-13C so low to mid 50s F, with nights down to around 5C, low 40s F, and occasional light frost. It's not extremely cold and certainly our absolute low temps wouldn't test species tolerant to the temperatures you mentioned above....but...there's the trap for young players. 

When my palm madness really kicked in hard the first time, in the early 2000s the internet was new and fresh and full of stories of tropical plants surviving in climates that get a lot colder than mine. So I dutifully bought Bismarkia, Dypsis decaryi, Syagrus schizophylla and bunch of similar species reputed to survive temperatures way lower than we ever get. What I failed to take into account - wilfully I think in retrospect, because zone pushing can become a form of self denial - was that the reports of hardiness were coming from climates where either/both the day temps rebound significantly and the winters are short and sharp with a quick return to warmer conditions. 

I believe this is critical to understand when considering a big zone push. Reading some threads from the last few years about palms in London, I could see all the same enthusiastic delusions manifesting that us Taswegians went through 15 years ago! Spoiler alert: you won't get golden cane palms to grow in a climate almost identical to ours. And unfortunately those guys have the added spectre of a minus 10C continental freeze inevitably on the horizon, a burden we never have to worry about. It's truly amazing what will grow in climates like London, but to maintain a sense of perspective can save a lot of disappointment later...if I  could turn back the clock I would do things very differently, hence the question in this thread. Strive for trunking Howeas, Livistona and Rhopies that are beautiful and known to be cool tolerant before falling on the sword of Dypsis! It's wishful thinking though, because humans do love to learn the hard way, it's like a form of ritual initiation...you must kill 20 species to be a member of our cult! 

Ha! Sorry, just went on a philosophical rampage...the tentative joys of your own thread. I think though that I also just answered my own question.

Yep, I’ve been through the exact same thing. You could probably still argue that I haven’t learnt my lesson, but for every species I’ve committed to a slow (or sometimes not so slow death) like Hyophorbe vershaffeltii, Satakentia, Chrysalidocarpus carlsmithii and various Pinanga, I’ve had probably an equal number of surprising success stories (Lanonia dasyantha, various Pritchardia, various Chrysalidocarpus, Dypsis rosea and others). I even remember a time when we were told Chambeyronia won’t grow here in Melbourne and sometime I even still hear northerners claim Archontophoenix alexandrae won’t grow when the city is littered with mature specimens.
 

Of course Tassie is a different beast altogether but I think the best plan is to do your research before zone pushing, especially in regards to habitat conditions of species you’re trying. Often, for those of us with extended cool winters, high elevation species tend to perform well rather than species known to take occasional extreme cold but hail from climates with a lot of heat (Bismarckia, Roystonea, Thrinax etc). 
 

Just to add something slightly more on topic, here’s my Allagoptera caudescens. This palm is probably nearly 20 years old I’d say. 

[Jonathan]

Nice one Tim, that's looking good.

Yep there are always surprises, and Melbourne is much hotter than Tassie in summer. Also I think the influence of shoulder seasons shouldn't be ignored. Our spring takes a lot longer to get moving than even the coolest parts of the mainland...we're just subject to the cool sou'westers for longer before the island heats up.

You're also spot on about the high elevation plants. Cloud forest species are the winners here, Ceroxylon, lots of Chamaedorea species, hopefully Geonoma undata! Plus the obvious high latitude candidates like Rhopies. Avocados are a classic cloud forest species that grow surprisingly well here - theres even a commercial orchard up north, shock horror- and make a nice canopy tree, and are probably a good indicator of other species likely to thrive. 

A species I don't understand at all is Copernicia alba. On paper it should grow well here, as it literally grows alongside species like Butia yatay, which is bombproof. Yet all of mine languish and sulk and will ultimately croak I think. So you just never can tell!

[Jonathan]

1 hour ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

This pitiful little thing is the only one I’ve got up here in Northern CA and it’s been through its first winter in the ground and, now that it’s warmed up, a new spear is showing but it’s obviously very young. It gets 3/4 day full sun. I’m hopeful for at least a couple of leaves this summer. 

Hey @Jim in Los Altos, I reckon you'll have no problems! I just had a quick look at the averages for Los Altos, it's so much hotter than here. SF is bewildering with its range of climates. All the pictures I've seen of your garden look like bloody Queensland! That's a backhanded, jealous compliment by the way!

[Jim in Los Altos]

45 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

Hey @Jim in Los Altos, I reckon you'll have no problems! I just had a quick look at the averages for Los Altos, it's so much hotter than here. SF is bewildering with its range of climates. All the pictures I've seen of your garden look like bloody Queensland! That's a backhanded, jealous compliment by the way!

Yeah, I just checked your averages too. It’s definitely warmer here. If you have a spot in your garden that is a sunny heat trap of sorts, that might help with growth.  

[happypalms]

2 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

This pitiful little thing is the only one I’ve got up here in Northern CA and it’s been through its first winter in the ground and, now that it’s warmed up, a new spear is showing but it’s obviously very young. It gets 3/4 day full sun. I’m hopeful for at least a couple of leaves this summer. 

They are slow in the cool climates even in my subtropical zone they are slow temperate zones probably slower but will survive albeit begrudgingly 

[Jonathan]

2 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Yeah, I just checked your averages too. It’s definitely warmer here. If you have a spot in your garden that is a sunny heat trap of sorts, that might help with growth.  

I've got just the place: my greenhouse! 

 

2 hours ago, happypalms said:

They are slow in the cool climates even in my subtropical zone they are slow temperate zones probably slower but will survive albeit begrudgingly 

Too slow I'm afraid...a pot plant it shall remain.

Decision made.

[happypalms]

6 hours ago, Jonathan said:

Nice one Tim, that's looking good.

Yep there are always surprises, and Melbourne is much hotter than Tassie in summer. Also I think the influence of shoulder seasons shouldn't be ignored. Our spring takes a lot longer to get moving than even the coolest parts of the mainland...we're just subject to the cool sou'westers for longer before the island heats up.

You're also spot on about the high elevation plants. Cloud forest species are the winners here, Ceroxylon, lots of Chamaedorea species, hopefully Geonoma undata! Plus the obvious high latitude candidates like Rhopies. Avocados are a classic cloud forest species that grow surprisingly well here - theres even a commercial orchard up north, shock horror- and make a nice canopy tree, and are probably a good indicator of other species likely to thrive. 

A species I don't understand at all is Copernicia alba. On paper it should grow well here, as it literally grows alongside species like Butia yatay, which is bombproof. Yet all of mine languish and sulk and will ultimately croak I think. So you just never can tell!

I think the cold high amounts of chill hours below a certain temperature is the killer just to cold for to long but where there is will there is a way if not you can visit tim in twenty years time and check out the monster he will grow in Melbourne as he gives you a tour of a backyard full of palms with only room left for the clothes line actually Tim by a clothes dryer more room for palms that way.

[Foxpalms]

I have one growing at 51N in London England. It doesn't seem to mind an average high of 9c with a low of 5c during the coldest month of the year. Clearly a a cool winter tolerant palm. The summers here are slightly warmer than where you are with the hottest month usually having an average high of over 25c nowadays, going off the last 10 year of data, with the lows around 17c (since I am in central London). It is slow growing here but seems happy enough. I agree with comments about they don't like cold wet soil, similar to syagrus romanzoffiana, therefore good drainage in cool winter climates is a must.

For cold weather below 0c whilst it doesn't get very cold here, mine has seen -2c without damage.

[Jonathan]

22 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

I have one growing at 51N in London England. It doesn't seem to mind an average high of 9c with a low of 5c during the coldest month of the year. Clearly a a cool winter tolerant palm. The summers here are slightly warmer than where you are with the hottest month usually having an average high of over 25c nowadays, going off the last 10 year of data, with the lows around 17c (since I am in central London). It is slow growing here but seems happy enough. I agree with comments about they don't like cold wet soil, similar to syagrus romanzoffiana, therefore good drainage in cool winter climates is a must.

For cold weather below 0c whilst it doesn't get very cold here, mine has seen -2c without damage.

I think we all agree on the cold hardiness factor...it's the glacial growth rate that's problem.

Lets not get into climate comparison semantics but pic below is one of my many Howeas.

[Foxpalms]

3 hours ago, Jonathan said:

I think we all agree on the cold hardiness factor...it's the glacial growth rate that's problem.

Lets not get into climate comparison semantics but pic below is one of my many Howeas.

 

I was trying to show that these palms with good drainage will handle cool winters.  I think they will grow where you are, just very slowly.  

[Jonathan]

11 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

I was trying to show that these palms with good drainage will handle cool winters.  I think they will grow where you are, just very slowly.  

Agreed.

Hence the Howea pic - as a reminder to myself that we can grow beautiful palms that perform well in our local climate without resorting to extreme zone pushing. As mentioned above, for myself, it's been a lesson hard learnt.

The little Allagoptera is already an interesting plant to look at, so a home in a pot in a prominent position in the greenhouse or for short periods indoors makes more sense to me than having it vanish in the garden for another 20 years! 

But everyone is different.