Butia pollination

[luke.m]

I have been collecting fruit and seed locally of what I believe is Butia oderata. I’ve noticed from the same cluster of fruits a real difference in nut and fruit size. For all appearances it looks as though the first group of fruits to ripen have viable seed and those ripening now don’t, and the shift is consistent. The first ripening fruits where large averaging 35mm with the nice big seeds, those ripening now are more like 25mm with a very small seed. Can anyone share any info as to experience with pollination of butias as the fruits are well developed but seemingly with unviable seed.

Is this a normal occurrence with palms? Can these make fruits without pollination?
Could you share thoughts as to what may have happened with pollination or lack there of? 

These are really delicious fruits

[Scott W]

I can't explain it, I've seen it with making hybrids as well.

Fruit developed regardless because the flower was pollinated.  From a germination perspective, many have stated the smaller seed doesn't have an embryo and thus won't germinate, hence the underdeveloped seed.  I can confirm I don't recall seeing many, if any, germination from the smaller seeds in my last batch of mule palms. 

[Harry’s Palms]

I only got to taste the fruit on mine once, it was very tasty . Ever since the first time it got fruit , the squirrels get them before I can get down there. To me it tasted a bit like apricot. I didn’t look at the seed too closely , there used to be a Queen very close to it so it could have been cross pollinated.Harry

[luke.m]

20 hours ago, Scott W said:

I can't explain it, I've seen it with making hybrids as well.

Fruit developed regardless because the flower was pollinated.  From a germination perspective, many have stated the smaller seed doesn't have an embryo and thus won't germinate, hence the underdeveloped seed.  I can confirm I don't recall seeing many, if any, germination from the smaller seeds in my last batch of mule palms. 

The plot thickens… 

now I’m thinking the possible options are:

1. im seeing cross pollination (possibly with nearby syagrus) resulting in  non-viable seed, post the very initial flowering. If as the flowers first begun the bees were not visiting both but then things changed. Bees are a whole universe unto themselves. Or

2. something changed within the individuals flowering (no cross pollinating) perhaps viability of pollen?? Or

3. Some mechanism kicked in which interferes with self pollinating to do with genetic diversity. 

Most curious. It still has two full clusters of fruit yet to ripen so I’ll keep an eye on it into the season see if it has another marked change. 
Any more discussion or random ideas are fully welcomed, thanks.

 

[luke.m]

@Scott W I harvested the second bunch and something like  99 % are fully formed and large seeded. 
Only one or two here and there poorly formed within the bunch. Going by the size of the fruit in the next bunch I’m anticipating this to be the same and  we didn’t find any sign of seed material inside the smaller nuts either, blanks. 

[Scott W]

3 hours ago, luke.m said:

@Scott W  we didn’t find any sign of seed material inside the smaller nuts either, blanks. 

So you cut the seeds open and there were no signs of an embryo?

[luke.m]

@Scott W that is correct.  as I had thrown most remaining fermenting fruits to the chooks, when I went to find some more to open up, do you think I could find any?? 
these three where the only ones left in the collection. My son and myself had cracked a couple each previously to not find any apparent embryo, the three smallest of the four little ones here are only a small representation of the group of approx 100+ but we can see the poorly developed cavity and little or no embryo. 

cracked carefully in the vice with a cupped hand underneath to catch any little bits. 
The first pic of the cracked seed could at a stretch be an embryo??  But to my untrained eye they look pretty empty.