Garden Pond

[BeyondTheGarden]

I'm in the process of building my new garden, which requires some kind of pond.  My old garden had a small waterfall and a little stream that trickled into a hard-black-plastic pond liner; this was integrated into elevation change which is necessary for making it feel somewhat natural and real and wild.  I had about 3.5 feet of elevation gain that I had built-in.  I liked it but decided I would have a bigger mound this time, extending above head so you could stand at the bottom and not see the top.  

My new mound is about 6.5' tall and over 20 feet wide at the base.  I currently have a hole dug to probably 2' deep; maybe 10 feet wide and 15 feet long.  I may make it longer.  I seem to enjoy moving dirt with a shovel.  The further I extend it, the more sunshine it will see in the summer which is bad for algae blooms, but good for marginal plants.  I believe. 

I plan to have goldfish at a minimum, perhaps a koi or two.  This place should be fully landscaped, palmscaped, cramscaped by this summer, Lord willing.  

I am trying to decide on what type of liner to use for the pond.  I will probably use EPDM as it's the most resilient synthetic material.  However it will require lining the inside with stones.  I could potentially do concrete; I would probably do this myself, building a rebar/steel mesh frame and fiberglass reinforced concrete.  I need to do a cost comparison; has anyone played with this? 

For the waterfall, which should start at the top of the mound and cascade slowly down the mound, I'm undecided.  I'm a fan of piling up rock in front of a plastic liner, but since this is so steep I think concrete would be a much stronger option with a longer lifespan and less maintenance.  I could also embed rock into the concrete.  

Here's the ugly excavation currently.

 

[BeyondTheGarden]

And some rock... need another truckload.  Pretty settled on doing the waterfall out of concrete, cascading over the crest of the two large rocks in the middle.  These rocks all came from under a hundred+ year old farmhouse that's being torn down, they were foundation rocks held together with nothing other than clay...  the two big rocks in the middle were under the hearth of the fireplace.  

Too bad the arctic blast is coming, I'd really like to start cramming ferns and epimediums into the crevices between the rocks.

[Chester B]

A lot of work so far.  One bit of advice I can give you is that you need an area of the pond that is at least 3 feet deep.  This will moderate temps, cut down on algae blooms as well as provide a safe refuge for the fish.  Deeper ponds perform better and end up being less work in the long run.  You should look to see if there is a local pond club, that would be an amazing resource.   

[BeyondTheGarden]

7 minutes ago, Chester B said:

A lot of work so far.  One bit of advice I can give you is that you need an area of the pond that is at least 3 feet deep.  This will moderate temps, cut down on algae blooms as well as provide a safe refuge for the fish.  Deeper ponds perform better and end up being less work in the long run.  You should look to see if there is a local pond club, that would be an amazing resource.   

Speaking of fish, I forgot to ask if you were able to bring any to Texas, or if you plan to keep any there?

[Xenon]

Beware of the wildlife too. This egret came and ate most of the fish before the freeze, time for new fish and new plants 😆

 

[Chester B]

15 hours ago, BeyondTheGarden said:

Speaking of fish, I forgot to ask if you were able to bring any to Texas, or if you plan to keep any there?

No.  Not worth moving unless its a local one.  Sold them all off to the Aquarium store.  Keeping fish is a hobby, they're definitely not pets, so there is no emotional attachment.   

I've kept fish since about the age of 3 or 4 so I will get more once I'm settled.  There are many good fish stores in Houston and neighboring cities.  I will be adding a pond at some point but won't stock any goldfish or koi.  I'll be using some of the more cold hardy Central American cichlids and live bearers.

[Silas_Sancona]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

No.  Not worth moving unless its a local one.  Sold them all off to the Aquarium store.  Keeping fish is a hobby, they're definitely not pets, so there is no emotional attachment.   

I've kept fish since about the age of 3 or 4 so I will get more once I'm settled.  There are many good fish stores in Houston and neighboring cities.  I will be adding a pond at some point but won't stock any goldfish or koi.  I'll be using some of the more cold hardy Central American cichlids and live bearers.

Good choices.. Cichlids  would be unique for sure.  Have always wanted a pond where i could raise some of the more colorful Tetras, though i think winter water temps would still get too cold for them, even in some place like San Diego.   They're pretty n' all but never been a huge fan of Koi ..or Goldfish..  Kinda boring, imo. 

Some of the Botanical Gardens here stock only live native / regionally native bearers ..Aside from just Mosquito Fish. 

Wish there was a way get a permit to raise our native Pupfish.. Neat little buggers, and quite colorful ..Males at least. 

[BeyondTheGarden]

14 hours ago, Xenon said:

Beware of the wildlife too. This egret came and ate most of the fish before the freeze, time for new fish and new plants 😆

 

 

Valid note.  Chester B advised me to put a cinder block or something in my last pond, after I had lost a couple koi and several goldfish. 

3 hours ago, Chester B said:

No.  Not worth moving unless its a local one.  Sold them all off to the Aquarium store.  Keeping fish is a hobby, they're definitely not pets, so there is no emotional attachment.   

I've kept fish since about the age of 3 or 4 so I will get more once I'm settled.  There are many good fish stores in Houston and neighboring cities.  I will be adding a pond at some point but won't stock any goldfish or koi.  I'll be using some of the more cold hardy Central American cichlids and live bearers.

That's cool, I don't know much about exotic fish but I read that they have naturalized in Florida, and your climate is probably pretty similar to a lot of central Florida.  

You'll have to make a separate pond for the alligators. 

[Chester B]

There are a couple of tetras that can take cooler temps.  Like the Bloodfin tetra and I think some of the Astyanax species.  

I was surprised that people in Texas and other hot places could keep goldfish and koi.  I figured it was just too hot.

There are also some of the smaller sunfish species that are colorful and do well in ponds.  Aggression may be an issue during spawning time though.

Other interesting fish could include American Flagffish, some of the small shiner species and north american species of killifish.

[Silas_Sancona]

5 minutes ago, Chester B said:

There are a couple of tetras that can take cooler temps.  Like the Bloodfin tetra and I think some of the Astyanax species.  

I was surprised that people in Texas and other hot places could keep goldfish and koi.  I figured it was just too hot.

There are also some of the smaller sunfish species that are colorful and do well in ponds.  Aggression may be an issue during spawning time though.

Other interesting fish could include American Flagffish, some of the small shiner species and north american species of killifish.

Interesting.. Will keep this in mind for the future..

Sunfish are definitely interesting as well and something i don't think many people think of when considering " pond species " they might research.

Flag and Killifish ( ..and other colorful live bearers like Swordtails / Platies / Mollies ) would also be unique.  Pretty sure we have roughly a handful or so of live bearers native here. Something most people wouldn't expect.



Fyi, ..As i'm sure you're already aware, a pond down there will = visits from several " back yard " Toad / Treefrog / related sps through the year..  ..Unlike back in Ore. ..and most of CA.. where it was mainly the Pac. Tree / Chorus Frogs keeping light sleepers awake, lol.

 

[BeyondTheGarden]

15 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Interesting.. Will keep this in mind for the future..

Sunfish are definitely interesting as well and something i don't think many people think of when considering " pond species " they might research.

Flag and Killifish ( ..and other colorful live bearers like Swordtails / Platies / Mollies ) would also be unique.  Pretty sure we have roughly a handful or so of live bearers native here. Something most people wouldn't expect.



Fyi, ..As i'm sure you're already aware, a pond down there will = visits from several " back yard " Toad / Treefrog / related sps through the year..  ..Unlike back in Ore. ..and most of CA.. where it was mainly the Pac. Tree / Chorus Frogs keeping light sleepers awake, lol.

 

Having treefrogs was a treat in the garden in Washington.  Out here I've got lizards all over the place.  NC has a lot of native reptiles, I'm sure Texas does as well.  Looking forward to researching them and learning more about them.  

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, BeyondTheGarden said:

Having treefrogs was a treat in the garden in Washington.  Out here I've got lizards all over the place.  NC has a lot of native reptiles, I'm sure Texas does as well.  Looking forward to researching them and learning more about them.  

Yep.. numerous Treefrog sps there also..  Your area is center stage for one of the rarer / endangered sps. also.  Consider yourself very lucky if any find their way to your pond. 

Barking / Cope's Gray Treefrogs, both considered  common " Holarctic " Treefrogs  out there, can learn to accept bugs out of hand / from a plate. 

https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/23939-Hyla-andersonii
 

[Chester B]

One of the main reasons I want a pond is to bring in the wildlife, specifically amphibians and reptiles.  My wife loves toads, and that's something that doesn't occur in the Portland area.  We had two amphibians only - Red legged frogs and the Western tree frog.  Pretty boring to be honest.  I'm looking forward to the anoles, I have already seen one on my house and I imagine once I start my gardens it will draw them into my yard.  Right now its only grass.

[Silas_Sancona]

26 minutes ago, Chester B said:

One of the main reasons I want a pond is to bring in the wildlife, specifically amphibians and reptiles.  My wife loves toads, and that's something that doesn't occur in the Portland area.  We had two amphibians only - Red legged frogs and the Western tree frog.  Pretty boring to be honest.  I'm looking forward to the anoles, I have already seen one on my house and I imagine once I start my gardens it will draw them into my yard.  Right now its only grass.

If i could get away with it ( ..and the yard was a little bigger, lol ) i'd dig a Seasonal pool for the Spadefoots and Great Plains Toads that somehow remain in the yard / neighborhood. 

We have a Tree Frog sp. here, but you rarely see them in the valley..  Quite common just outside of town, though they blend in w/ the rock here, so they're tough to spot unless you take your time when peeking under ledges where they hang out during the day.
 

Similar situation in San Jose.. " Pacific " Tree Frog, now divided into the subspecies, inc. the one that occurs up in Portland,  and the silent Western Toads were the only common things you'd see in yards there, unless near a lake full of Bull frogs,  or out in more rural areas, east or south of town, where you might encounter Western Spadefoot, and the occasional Yellow or Red Legged Frogs..

 After growing up where the " Toad and Frog " diversity was as you put it, ..a bit dull,  living in KS and FL was a treat on humid or stormy summer nights when ..everything.. was out chorusing..  " May / June Beetles ",  a common type of brownish colored, Scarab that come out in droves during the warmer months?  = instant Toad magnets..  Easily see half a dozen, sitting under street lights picking off all the beetles that the lights attracted.  Those beetles will also somehow magically appear inside, even if you keep all your doors / windows closed. Harmless, though maybe a bit annoying at times.

If they're as common in Houston now as they were in FL, you'll probably see tons of Brown Anole..  Pretty much anywhere / everywhere once it warms up.  I used to feed a group that hung around my apartment patio in Largo.

At least in FL, Green Anole were a little less common, due in part to competition from browns, but, i'd see plenty of them too.   Keep an eye out for Tropical House Gecko, Hemidactylus mabouia.  Supposedly observed / recorded around Houston recently.  Much larger than the Med. Geckoes you'll likely see on the walls of your house in the evenings. Really cool looking Lizard.

 

[Chester B]

From what I've read, there are both brown and green anoles here.  And the brown invaders outcompete the native green ones so in areas where both occur the greens anoles live high in the tree canopy.  And I did read about the geckos, but the Tropical one seems to be relegated to the inner city.  But I hope I get any geckos around here.  I'm more likely to see an alligator to be honest, I'm surrounded by natural areas with lots of water.  There are signs for alligators everywhere.

Back at my last house in Ontario, we had a 3 acre wetland that we owned and had set aside for conservation purposes.  It officially had conservation status with the County which gave us a break on property tax.  Our wetland had a couple of small streams running through it that contained Brook stickleback (fish) so it was a healthy ecosystem.  In spring the noise of the frogs would be deafening.  First the wood frogs, then the Spring peepers and the rest all going off at the same time.  We had American toads, Green frogs, Bull Frogs, Grey Tree frogs and Leopard frogs.  Perhaps the odd Pickerel frog too,  So by my count that is 8 species.

[Silas_Sancona]

On 1/17/2024 at 10:22 AM, Chester B said:

From what I've read, there are both brown and green anoles here.  And the brown invaders outcompete the native green ones so in areas where both occur the greens anoles live high in the tree canopy.  And I did read about the geckos, but the Tropical one seems to be relegated to the inner city.  But I hope I get any geckos around here.  I'm more likely to see an alligator to be honest, I'm surrounded by natural areas with lots of water.  There are signs for alligators everywhere.

Back at my last house in Ontario, we had a 3 acre wetland that we owned and had set aside for conservation purposes.  It officially had conservation status with the County which gave us a break on property tax.  Our wetland had a couple of small streams running through it that contained Brook stickleback (fish) so it was a healthy ecosystem.  In spring the noise of the frogs would be deafening.  First the wood frogs, then the Spring peepers and the rest all going off at the same time.  We had American toads, Green frogs, Bull Frogs, Grey Tree frogs and Leopard frogs.  Perhaps the odd Pickerel frog too,  So by my count that is 8 species.

Chorus Frogs were the first singers that were out calling within a day or two of the snow melting in March in KS.. Followed by Cricket Frogs.. American, Great Plains, and Woodhouse's Toads,  ( Last two are common here as well ) Native Leopard and Bull Frogs..

..Grey Tree Frogs started singing around late April / early May, and Plains Spadefoot  / Western Narrow- Mouthed Frog calling in late May / June..

We had a Soybean field w/ some marshy areas on one end of the property behind the neighborhood i lived in at that time and i'd venture out there late at night, esp. after spring storms, just to see who was out calling.  Loud enough from a few blocks away on the back patio, ..pretty much deafening when standing at / trying to walk around the edge of the " marsh " to get closer looks.

Catchment areas behind the house in Florida was similar ..if not more crowded, ..and loud, lol..  after summer storms there.  Some people would whine about all the noise. I loved it. Nothing like sitting out on the patio on a humid night w/ the sounds of countless frogs / toads filling the air.

Surprisingly,  counting the 5 or 6 non natives like Cuban Tree frog ( showing up here recently ) Greenhouse Frogs ( tiny, and go unnoticed unless you're familiar with them. Been present here in parts of town for at least a decade ) ..a non native Leopard frog / Bull frogs,  and African Clawed frog, ( reported from near Tucson )  we have about 30 sps of Frogs / Toads in AZ. 

Another dozen or so species are within reach of AZ just to the south in Sonora / N. and Central Sinaloa, ..inc some odd balls like Duck - Billed Treefrog ( Current, northern limit is somewhere near the Culiacan area of Sinaloa ) Several Toads in two genus, Sabinal Frog, a relative of the Greenhouse Frog, ..The northern- most species of Leaf Frog ( Genus Agalychnis ) ..The ones that lay their eggs on leaves and let rain wash them into ponds.. Have been reports of it being seen within 75 miles of the AZ / Mex. border  ..and a few species within Genus you'd only expect to encounter in wetter forests in Central and S. America that somehow evolved to withstand the drier / hotter environments in areas of Mexico north of Puerto Vallarta.. 

That is correct regarding Green vs. Brown Anoles..  Where the density of browns is higher, greens will hang out higher up in any trees in the same area..  Is only in more urban areas w/ less tree cover that the # of Green Anole were actually declining.. Now, it is the bigger ..and grumpier... Knight Anole that are displacing browns as they continue spreading north in FL. 

Your mention of designating a portion of your property as a conservation area is something i've thought about when considering a piece of property, esp. if doing so would lower the purchasing price / any property taxes on it.. 

As mentioned, if the current yard were larger,  and the owner allowed it, i'd probably talk with the city about allowing me to redirect some of the runoff from the street into catchment basins like these pictured below, only on my property.

Unlike these, i'd fill every inch of said runoff basin(s) with plants / surround them with a wall of tall, dense canopied trees  rather than leaving so much open, bare rock area..   I need to walk some of these after a couple good storms during monsoon season this year ( ..If it actually rains this year )  just to see if they're attracting any of the singers in the neighborhood.

[Chester B]

I think you should watch this video, I immediately thought of it when I saw your pictures.  These people have multiple ponds, but the one at the 3 minute mark has a steep wall somewhat like you're thinking of.

 

[Little Tex]

On 1/16/2024 at 10:54 AM, Chester B said:

Central American cichlids and live bearers.

Call the Fish Gallery to ask what rescues they have, they usually have massive Amphilophus hybrids, big big jaguar cichlids, they had 1 wolf cichlid, and a crap ton of Jack Dempseys and Oscars that are 10-12" also if you want a Thai Silk hybrid Flowerhorn when you get the pond up, hit me up because I have one who needs a place to go 😂 

On 1/17/2024 at 11:22 AM, Chester B said:

And I did read about the geckos, but the Tropical one seems to be relegated to the inner city. 

Im only a few miles from you and I can confirm that is a big nope, your first summer you will realize that, they will be in your pots, outside and inside, ive found them in, the shower, the silverware drawer, the front hall, the office, the bathroom, the geckos love to come inside, I usually don't kick them out because they eat the bugs. 

On 1/17/2024 at 11:22 AM, Chester B said:

I'm more likely to see an alligator to be honest

They chill in the Bayous and usually 3-4 get into neighborhoods during the prime seasons and get tranq'ed and taken on a truck back to the bayou

On 1/16/2024 at 2:18 PM, Chester B said:

There are a couple of tetras that can take cooler temps

Native tetras too! The Mexican Tetra is native to Texas and looks almost identical to the buenos aires tetra but 1-2" larger, you'd have to go a bit west to find any wild ones, 

[Little Tex]

Front yard last august

[Little Tex]

On 1/16/2024 at 10:54 AM, Chester B said:

Keeping fish is a hobby, they're definitely not pets, so there is no emotional attachment.

Ah I big to differ, these little guys are like children to me 😂 , I hand trained them so I can pet/hand feed them, i should make a seperate thread with them

[Little Tex]

On 1/16/2024 at 2:12 PM, BeyondTheGarden said:

That's cool, I don't know much about exotic fish but I read that they have naturalized in Florida, and your climate is probably pretty similar to a lot of central Florida.  

All thats naturalized here are the stupid tilapia and asian carps, the freezes take out anything that would be more tropical than that, There was attempts to naturalize peacock bass in the lower RGV but those attempts lasted only a few years before freezes made them croak

[redbeard917]

When I was doing landscaping I assisted with the creation of a few ponds. I would say your eye for embedding stones in a natural way is good. Looking forward to updates.

The designer I worked for preferred to have bare concrete in some places since he said maidenhair ferns will eventually grow in its high pH surface. I would have thought embedding some kind of natural material would be superior, but I deferred to his experience.

[redbeard917]

I have a few other photos from work we did during those days, but it seems inappropriate to post pictures from private homes. This particular pond is at a public museum. In this case, he had us cover the pond liner with concrete to protect it from punctures. This area will be used as a bird enclosure so the birds will walk and bathe in the pond. The concrete had no rebar or wire, since we didn't care if it developed cracks. The only exception to that was an area with a reinforced concrete block wall for the waterfall. It was later covered with several giant natural limestone boulders. Most of the rocks you see embedded in the pond are actually recycled sidewalks that are tumbled to look like natural stone.

[SM458]

On 1/16/2024 at 1:01 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Interesting.. Will keep this in mind for the future..

Sunfish are definitely interesting as well and something i don't think many people think of when considering " pond species " they might research.

Flag and Killifish ( ..and other colorful live bearers like Swordtails / Platies / Mollies ) would also be unique.  Pretty sure we have roughly a handful or so of live bearers native here. Something most people wouldn't expect.



Fyi, ..As i'm sure you're already aware, a pond down there will = visits from several " back yard " Toad / Treefrog / related sps through the year..  ..Unlike back in Ore. ..and most of CA.. where it was mainly the Pac. Tree / Chorus Frogs keeping light sleepers awake, lol.

 

I’ve have tried Flagfish. But I think my climate was too cold during winter. I haven’t seen any after spring. I bought 6 exploded to triple of that amount. Neat fish for sure. 
I have done guppies, I only kept them late spring till fall. And kept them in a spare large aquarium for the winter. And wait until late spring and being a new cycle and repeat. 😄

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, SM458 said:

I’ve have tried Flagfish. But I think my climate was too cold during winter. I haven’t seen any after spring. I bought 6 exploded to triple of that amount. Neat fish for sure. 
I have done guppies, I only kept them late spring till fall. And kept them in a spare large aquarium for the winter. And wait until late spring and being a new cycle and repeat. 😄

Not sure if they move them in winter but ASDM ( Arizona Sonora Desert Museum )  has ..at least.. a couple sps of native / regionally native live bearers ( Kilifish / Guppies, etc Genus / sps in the same overall family ) in their outdoor ponds most of the year.. 

Tohono Chul Park ( another garden in Tucson )  have the same fish plus our local subspecies of Desert Pupfish in their ponds year round.

Know Mosquito Fish will survive winters in ponds, as long as the pond doesn't freeze solid / depth is enough that they can hang out below any thin layer of ice that might form occasionally.

While it rarely gets cold enough here to really chill a fish pond, i myself have thought about the idea of installing some sort of embedded heating coil ..sort of like what some people install under floors.. to keep the water temp in a pond i might have above 50F in winter.