Phoenix dactylifera vs Washingtonia Robusta cold hardiness in San Antonio

[MarcusH]

Nearly 3 years after the big freeze I was wondering how well Phoenix Dactylifera did compared to Washingtonia Robusta . I remember seeing quite a few planted at the Tobin Center but were removed because not all survived but some did.  Even before the freeze it seems Phoenix date palms weren't really planted in large numbers at all here in the San Antonio area unlike Robustas.  My question is do they share the same cold hardiness?  I know of some Phoenix date palms that exists on the Southside.  Does anyone know where I can find more of those palms ? 

[Dwarf Fan]

We have some here that are fairly old on the Island but the trunks are all ratty looking due to being a desert Palm, as they do not like the coastal humidity but seem to be fine down to 20F as they survived Palmageddon’21, so they are definitely more cold Hardy than Queens, Foxtails, Pygmy Dates, Royals, Triangles and CocoQueens. Hope that helps you narrow down the hardiness Marcus.

[SeanK]

2 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

We have some here that are fairly old on the Island but the trunks are all ratty looking due to being a desert Palm, as they do not like the coastal humidity but seem to be fine down to 20F as they survived Palmageddon ’21, so they are definitely more cold Hardy than Queens, Foxtails, Pygmy Dates, Royals, Triangles and CocoQueens. Hope that helps you narrow down the hardiness Marcus.

This seems to not address his comparison. Of course CIDP is more cold hardy than all the palms you mention. 

[ChrisA]

There are still some dactylifera around my area of San Antonio (Alamo Heights/Broadway/Mahncke Park). I'd guess about 50% died in the great freeze, so it seems they did better than robusta. There were some notable plantings of very large dactylifera that ALL died.

Here is one such group planted on E. Mulberry Ave, that appeared to have been planted around 2016 that all perished... :(. They have since been replaced by S. palmettos.

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4527955,-98.4673732,3a,75y,321.72h,95.82t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5E-SsOxBf_bybOg42aRdeQ!2e0!5s20210201T000000!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

Another good-size grouping was at The Broadway Condominiums at the corner of Hildebrand and Broadway. They had also been around for many years prior to being wiped out in Feb 2021.  They have since been replaced by S. mexicana.

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.465702,-98.4627002,3a,75y,196.86h,87.75t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sexi1oNqqR7ANFKFcHxhx1w!2e0!5s20210201T000000!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

 

Here is an example of a few Dates that survived the recent freezes:

203 Arcadia Pl, Alamo Heights

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4759458,-98.4599096,3a,75y,3.13h,87.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syvSZXADfnlfw4X3j_FnREQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

 

Not dactylifera, but this grouping of Sylvestris was planted in 2022, prior to the Christmas freeze and I believe they all survived and are doing well:

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.401901,-98.4863437,3a,60y,62.44h,88.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGu0HjeXEYfirYmLCyUO09A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

 

Happy New Year!

-Chris

 

[Dwarf Fan]

4 hours ago, SeanK said:

This seems to not address his comparison. Of course CIDP is more cold hardy than all the palms you mention. 

Sorry my post was a bit incoherent (too much New Year’s cheer) my whole point was:

Phoenix dactylifera and Washingtonia Hybrids all survived 20F here on the Island during Palmageddon’21.

[fr8train]

On 1/1/2024 at 11:16 AM, ChrisA said:

There are still some dactylifera around my area of San Antonio (Alamo Heights/Broadway/Mahncke Park). I'd guess about 50% died in the great freeze, so it seems they did better than robusta. There were some notable plantings of very large dactylifera that ALL died.

Here is one such group planted on E. Mulberry Ave, that appeared to have been planted around 2016 that all perished... :(. They have since been replaced by S. palmettos.

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4527955,-98.4673732,3a,75y,321.72h,95.82t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5E-SsOxBf_bybOg42aRdeQ!2e0!5s20210201T000000!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

Another good-size grouping was at The Broadway Condominiums at the corner of Hildebrand and Broadway. They had also been around for many years prior to being wiped out in Feb 2021.  They have since been replaced by S. mexicana.

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.465702,-98.4627002,3a,75y,196.86h,87.75t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sexi1oNqqR7ANFKFcHxhx1w!2e0!5s20210201T000000!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

 

Here is an example of a few Dates that survived the recent freezes:

203 Arcadia Pl, Alamo Heights

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4759458,-98.4599096,3a,75y,3.13h,87.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syvSZXADfnlfw4X3j_FnREQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

 

Not dactylifera, but this grouping of Sylvestris was planted in 2022, prior to the Christmas freeze and I believe they all survived and are doing well:

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.401901,-98.4863437,3a,60y,62.44h,88.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGu0HjeXEYfirYmLCyUO09A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

 

Happy New Year!

-Chris

 

Very cool, thanks for sharing. I'll try to check some of these areas out the next time I'm in town and the sun's out. I wonder how much of what was removed would eventually bounce back? It's sad to see all that removed. 

 

In addition to this there are, I think, silver date palms at the south rim. Here they are after last winter's freeze:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/c7dat5JfA7gYbCp88

2 are still alive, I think the third one might be too, but it's recovering the slowest. I believe these were planted after the big freeze, but got zapped last year.

Here's a few more I've seen off I-10:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ArjQzWotfmAq9Qjq8

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LJfcyBSh8zPp1dd46

These are in much better shape. I just looked, these were planted before palmageddon. They look great from what I've seen from the highway.

Edited January 3, 2024 by fr8train

[fr8train]

I'm growing theophrasti, theophrasti x dactylifera, and standard dactylifera. I plan to be a guinea pig in this regard in the coming decades for this area. Hopefully they can make it. Seeing some of these palms gives me hope. 

[fr8train]

1 hour ago, fr8train said:

Here's a few more I've seen off I-10:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ArjQzWotfmAq9Qjq8

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LJfcyBSh8zPp1dd46

These are in much better shape. I just looked, these were planted before palmageddon. They look great from what I've seen from the highway.

I just drove by there on my way home and here's how they look now:

[fr8train]

The one closest to the street is looking a little rough, but hopefully we have a mild winter and it'll recover more.

[jwitt]

In El Paso there are some phx D.(date)(and canary) from pre 1962(-8f). I cannot say the same for robusta. 

 

[ChrisA]

Those dacty's in front of the Hampton Inn & Suites are looking sweet! I'm hoping we have a mild winter as well. We've got two more months to go before we're out of the woods. So far, knock on wood, nothing has been touched by frost at my house.

[MarcusH]

Looks like a good palm for our area , not completely bulletproof but very close I would say.  I assume it isn't as leaf hardy and will easily burn in the low 20s. 

[Ben G.]

I've got about a dozen dactylifera seedlings that I would be happy to give away to other TX growers in the area if anyone is ever interested. (I don't want to ship anything, but I would be happy to meet up in the evening or on a weekend)

Same goes for about two dozen W. filifera seedlings as well. I don't have room for them all of them, so I will probably "accidentally" drop them into small holes in the ground in area parks if no one wants/needs them.

I used to give away lots of plants and seedlings to coworkers in Oklahoma. I now have a workplace where no live plants are allowed in the building. Also, many of my friends and neighbors are fairly transient military families who don't stay in one place long enough to plant trees.

[MarcusH]

22 hours ago, Ben G. said:

I've got about a dozen dactylifera seedlings that I would be happy to give away to other TX growers in the area if anyone is ever interested. (I don't want to ship anything, but I would be happy to meet up in the evening or on a weekend)

Same goes for about two dozen W. filifera seedlings as well. I don't have room for them all of them, so I will probably "accidentally" drop them into small holes in the ground in area parks if no one wants/needs them.

I used to give away lots of plants and seedlings to coworkers in Oklahoma. I now have a workplace where no live plants are allowed in the building. Also, many of my friends and neighbors are fairly transient military families who don't stay in one place long enough to plant trees.

Hey Ben. I'm interested in a seedling I will try to grow one. Do you have experiences growing Dactyliferas in SA ?  I'll send you a pm.

[ABQPalms]

Hey Marcus. Great question. Here is my thoughts on which is more hardy.  They both relatively have the same cold hardiness (just giving the edge to Phoenix Dactylifera). Although, the Washingtonia Robusta is faster growing and will recover much faster if such a cold snap were to reach down to San Antonio again. That's what we've experienced here in a dry southwest desert climate so I'm not fully sure if the same effect would happen in the more humid Texas climate. 

[MarcusH]

On 9/15/2024 at 2:54 PM, ABQPalms said:

Hey Marcus. Great question. Here is my thoughts on which is more hardy.  They both relatively have the same cold hardiness (just giving the edge to Phoenix Dactylifera). Although, the Washingtonia Robusta is faster growing and will recover much faster if such a cold snap were to reach down to San Antonio again. That's what we've experienced here in a dry southwest desert climate so I'm not fully sure if the same effect would happen in the more humid Texas climate. 

From my observations and you're absolutely right is that Dactylifera take a long time to recover from severe freezes even longer than CIDPS.  Correct me if I'm wrong . The Dactyliferas I see here in San Antonio still have some partial leaf damage.  Maybe with right care the recovering process speeds up but as most palm owners they hardly ever care about palms.  

To answer your question we're mostly on the drier side but we do get some kind of humidity but not as crazy as you would see at other places in Texas. 

My Robusta fully recovered in a little as 4 months after the freeze.  

[Chester B]

 @MarcusH if you enjoy eating dates, I know I do, that you can save the pits, clean them off and I have found close to 100% germination from them.

[amh]

55 minutes ago, Chester B said:

 @MarcusH if you enjoy eating dates, I know I do, that you can save the pits, clean them off and I have found close to 100% germination from them.

This.

Go to HEB and buy a bunch of medjool dates with pits from the bulk section. You get dates and seeds.

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

 @MarcusH if you enjoy eating dates, I know I do, that you can save the pits, clean them off and I have found close to 100% germination from them.

What's a good method to germinate Date seeds ? I only have experiences with Washies. 

[amh]

1 minute ago, MarcusH said:

What's a good method to germinate Date seeds ? I only have experiences with Washies. 

It is about the same, soak the seed in water for a few days and plant in containers. Warmer temperatures are best, so you could start some now or wait till spring. The seeds can be stored for a very long time.

[Ben G.]

2 hours ago, MarcusH said:

What's a good method to germinate Date seeds ? I only have experiences with Washies. 

My seeds stayed in a plastic bag from Nov 2021 until earlier this summer. They sprouted easily in wet potting soil in a plastic bag. They took 5 to 7 days to sprout. 

They were very easy to germinate.

[Chester B]

15 hours ago, MarcusH said:

What's a good method to germinate Date seeds ? I only have experiences with Washies. 

I used the baggie method on a heat pad, germination was very quick.

[MarcusH]

24 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I used the baggie method on a heat pad, germination was very quick.

How long did it take ?

[Chester B]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

How long did it take ?

I haven't done it in a few years, but I think it was around 2 weeks, but not more than 4.

[ABQPalms]

20 hours ago, MarcusH said:

From my observations and you're absolutely right is that Dactylifera take a long time to recover from severe freezes even longer than CIDPS.  Correct me if I'm wrong . The Dactyliferas I see here in San Antonio still have some partial leaf damage.  Maybe with right care the recovering process speeds up but as most palm owners they hardly ever care about palms.  

To answer your question we're mostly on the drier side but we do get some kind of humidity but not as crazy as you would see at other places in Texas. 

My Robusta fully recovered in a little as 4 months after the freeze.  

I'm glad to hear your Robusta is doing great!

The Phoenix Dactyliferas might very well be still recovering and hence the result of slower growth.  You are absolutely correct about proper care and the regular resident usually just treats them as any ordinary plant or tree in their landscape. While they are low maintenance they still benefit from some TLC.

[jwitt]

Can't speak for San Antonio.  But in this ABQ zone 7a,  date palms have outlived the robusta. Infact the dead robusta were replaced with what I believe to be the more hardier palm.  Yesterday's pics ending with 1  pic from 2/22

[Ben G.]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

Can't speak for San Antonio.  But in this ABQ zone 7a,  date palms have outlived the robusta. Infact the dead robusta were replaced with what I believe to be the more hardier palm.  Yesterday's pics ending with 1  pic from 2/22

Nice pictures. I always thought that CIDP and dactyliferas were probably very hardy in environments similar to their natural habitats (though I guess no one knows for sure where dactyliferas come from)

It's still surprising to me to see large dates in a 7a location. May they live long and prosper.

[jwitt]

Maybe best as a clumper in a colder zone?

[jwitt]

@Ben G.they are close to the river and the outlet of Calabacitas arroyo.  A cold sink with about a 170 day growing season.  

I believe they would be doable in certain microclimates just to the west and NW of their location. 

But hey, a neat test .. 

The microclimate like this area would be best suited in my mind

[ABQPalms]

59 minutes ago, Ben G. said:

Nice pictures. I always thought that CIDP and dactyliferas were probably very hardy in environments similar to their natural habitats (though I guess no one knows for sure where dactyliferas come from)

It's still surprising to me to see large dates in a 7a location. May they live long and prosper.

Most of Albuquerque is 7b-8a, but close to the Rio Grande or Bosque it does drop a half to a full zone.  We shall see what this winter brings us,  as the river is expected to dry up completely within a week or two.

I am looking forward to see how the newly planted Dactys do! They already look healthier than what the Robustas did their first growing season planted there. 

[ABQPalms]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

@Ben G.they are close to the river and the outlet of Calabacitas arroyo.  A cold sink with about a 170 day growing season.  

I believe they would be doable in certain microclimates just to the west and NW of their location. 

But hey, a neat test .. 

The microclimate like this area would be best suited in my mind

Yes, along the river cold air does sink and makes the Valley colder than the NE/SE heights and Westside.  The NE/SE heights have protection from the Sandia Mountains and have a heat island effect. The Westside has rolling hills, the escarpment and the Petroglyphs as a shelter. 

Yet the Filiferas in Correles (Zone 6b) have been thriving for years now! And they are real close to the river. 

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, ABQPalms said:

1 hour ago, ABQPalms said:

Yet the Filiferas in Correles (Zone 6b) have been thriving for years now! And they are real close to the river. 

No or very little east wind during the Arctic palm killing events. 

Same can not be said for most of the rest of the metro.

 

[jwitt]

3 hours ago, Ben G. said:

 

It's still surprising to me to see large dates in a 7a location. May they live long and prosper.

I'm surprised also although there are some pluses with their "colder" location 

I believe the three in the back survived(multiple )single digits their first year.  They have yet to see a real "bad" winter.

They saw "this" their first or second winter. Add a degree or three.