Fire and Palms question

[epicure3]

So, with all that's happening here in So. Calif. do you think that a well maintained palm garden hinders or helps advance a fire? Of course, it depends upon the placement. But, let's suppose that the palms are placed well away from the walls of the house. Do palms burn easily? I wonder if it depends on the species.

[Dave-Vero]

My guess is that a fire fed by lots of volatile, flammable oils and pushed by strong, very dry winds, will quickly bake palms to a crisp.  Maybe a cactus garden might be a bit fire retardant (I can imagine prickly pear pads exploding as their water turns to steam).

[redant]

There was some "intellectual authority" on CNN the other night. While I didn't get the whole story, I believe his point was that irrigation was/is largely responsible for the spread of the fires. It causes excessive amounts of "fuel" that would not typically be available in SoCal.

This is not my opinion but that of some professor in WA or OR.

[Dave-Vero]

Time has a rather good article.

Fire ecologists have gotten very good at predicting what will happen under various conditions of fuel load, wind, temperature, and humidity.  One fairly recent finding for California is that while prescribed fires to reduce fuel loads are useful, if conditions are dry enough, everything will burn anyway.

[bgl]

Seems like there might be different opinions. On CNN yesterday, they interviewed one Fire captain who said that the fire (in that area) had really been helped by the fact that the brush was dead and up to 40 years old. In other words, no irrigation there, and obviously made it much easier for the fire to spread.

About palms & fire: I remember seeing a Washingtonia in Mission Bay Park that had been severely damaged by fire, and it was coming back very strong! And another case, here in Kapoho, 6 miles away from our location. Another palm society member has a Hyphaene. It was planted in the early 1990s and just sat there and did pretty much nothing. One day (mid 90s) her young son was playing with matches, set the palm on fire, and that really kicked it into high gear. It's been a very strong grower since, and last time I saw it, it was probably 18 ft tall or so with numerous trunks. But these palms are used to harsh desert climates, so the same approach may not necessarily work on rainforest palms...

[epicure3]

(redant @ Oct. 25 2007,12:30)

QUOTE

There was some "intellectual authority" on CNN the other night. While I didn't get the whole story, I believe his point was that irrigation was/is largely responsible for the spread of the fires. It causes excessive amounts of "fuel" that would not typically be available in SoCal.

This is not my opinion but that of some professor in WA or OR.

I don't know if that would be correct or not. You never hear of massive wild fires in Las Vegas or Phoenix, yet they use a massive amount of irrigation as well. The difference, in my opinion, is that those cities are not surrounded by anything but desert (relative to coastal countuies of SoCal). There is abundant natural vegetation in the coastal counties due to winter rain and higher humidities. Coastal sage and chapparal all burn fairly easily, I think.

As the cities of PHX and LAS expand, they do so into desert. As San Diego expands, it moves into areas with natural vegetation.

[epicure3]

(Dave-Vero @ Oct. 25 2007,12:47)

QUOTE

Time has a rather good article.

Fire ecologists have gotten very good at predicting what will happen under various conditions of fuel load, wind, temperature, and humidity.  One fairly recent finding for California is that while prescribed fires to reduce fuel loads are useful, if conditions are dry enough, everything will burn anyway.

Thanks for the link. I'm going to check that out.

[Dave-Vero]

http://www.californiachaparral.com/aboutus.html is an interesting website.  The proprieter is knowledgeable, but his opinions do not represent a scientific consensus.

[Kim]

(Dave-Vero @ Oct. 25 2007,11:02)

QUOTE

http://www.californiachaparral.com/aboutus.html is an interesting website.  The proprieter is knowledgeable, but his opinions do not represent a scientific consensus.

Mr. Halsey is even more knowledgeable today;  his house in Escondido was threatened by fire feeding off the bushes Mr. Halsey has fought to save.  There is an article about him and his Chaparral web site on the front page of the Wall St. Journal today.  After the fire he is quoted as saying, "I have a greater appreciation now for the impact of vegetation near structures than I did before." He will add a line to his web site that says, "Chaparral presents a real fire risk."

[amazondk]

A lot of the native palms around here get burned, Mauritias, Attaleas, Astrocaryum, Bactris and some others when forest is cleared for pasture, or grass is burned to maintain pasture and they in many times seem to thrive on being burned.  In some cases they grow so well they crowd other plants out.  So, I would say that a lot of palms would be pretty resistant to fire.  I imagine that fire is a natural element of the ecosystem in Southern California as it is around the world.  Human occupation normally keeps fires down and would increase fuel.  This has been one of the factors for bigger forest fires in the Rockies.  The indians used to set fires on purpose in the forest as the regrowth created better food supplies for game.  The savanna lands here in Brazil are subject to wildfires as well.  But, for the most part millions of people do not live in or near them.  

dk

[MattyB]

I think wheather or not a palm is resilient to fire and can recover or thirive from it is different from the question about; does it help or hinder the advance of a fire.

[palmmermaid]

Here in Florida, especially in the pine flatlands, fire is necessary for rgowth of the pines.  If you look at the long-leaf and slash pine, you will notice that they don't have many lower branches.  That is their protection from fire.  And the cones don't open until a fire heats them up to a certain temperature.  The fires keep the underbrush from getting too think.  The Serenoa repens can withstand up to 850 degrees of heat before it is killed or even severely damaged.  I have seen new growth in 1 week after a wildfire.  I think if you have no brush and your palms are tall enough, then the fire can't spread as fast.  What you don't want is a canopy fire.  Lower limbs can attribute to canopy fires.

[happ]

Interesting question.  I commented on another thread that LAFD encourages the planting & watering  of ground cover.  They require the lower branches close to the ground be trimmed but if trees are healthy & well-watered they are considered OK [i.e. king palms with fronds touching the the roof were allowed.

It seems that washingtonia's are hard to kill.  Delinquent kids occasionally light a native fan palm on fire yet the palms seem to come back quickly.  I can't image other palms being able to survive the extreme heat of a fire but Bo has cited exceptions [ hyphaene.

[epicure3]

The reason I even bring this up is that I have mostly subtropical to tropical palms planted. Some large, some not. They come from all parts of the world. I would imagine that palms from hot, dry places would stand up to fire better than others. But, would a hyophorbe or a roystonea go quickly.

Speaking of ground cover, the scourge of Southern California....... ice plant, looks a lot smarter.

[bgl]

John,

I have no idea what the fire resistance is of a Roystonea, but this is not exactly a tender rainforest palm that needs a lot of protection. I have seen Roystoneas in the Caribbean in some very stark and brutally hot and windy locations.

Bo-Göran

[epicure3]

(MattyB @ Oct. 25 2007,13:39)

QUOTE

I think wheather or not a palm is resilient to fire and can recover or thirive from it is different from the question about; does it help or hinder the advance of a fire.

Tnanks, Matt. That's really my question. If I have a fire advancing towards my home, am I best off having palms planted in it's way, or not. Is it a time saver of just a bunch of planted matches?

[redant]

"If I have a fire advancing towards my home, am I best off having palms planted in it's way, or not. Is it a time saver of just a bunch of planted matches?"

Stated this way I think you are better off with sand between you and the fire.

Honey I'm redoing the yard, I'm going for the beach look.

On the down side every cat in the neighborhood will be making a deposit.

[epicure3]

(redant @ Oct. 25 2007,15:38)

QUOTE

"If I have a fire advancing towards my home, am I best off having palms planted in it's way, or not. Is it a time saver of just a bunch of planted matches?"

Stated this way I think you are better off with sand between you and the fire.

Honey I'm redoing the yard, I'm going for the beach look.

On the down side every cat in the neighborhood will be making a deposit.

Hmmmm......c'mon, how can you have a beach without just 1 palm?

[osideterry]

My guess is the worst common plants would be eucalyptus trees and fountain grass. Succulents would probably be the safest. It would be interesting to simply take tropical plant leaves and see how easily they ignite. Somehow I don't imagine bananas or bird-of-paradise catching fire very easy. A yellow dried-out queen would be a torch.

[LJG]

I think the difference between us and AZ for example is the 'height' of the fuel. Low scrub brush and grasses burn quick, but do not have enough fuel to shoot flame to the ridiculous heights that the eucalyptus and pine trees allow for. Also, they do not put large embers into the air like those trees. I was hearing on the news that the washingtonia's are a major issue. The dead skirts catch fire and the whole tree burns. And these cause some of the worst embers they said. When you look at houses that burnt and ones that were spared, it seems many of the ones that made it had the open space clear. No trees and a large set back. Some of the ones burned, if you look at photos, have burnt stumps from some trees.

Our CC&Rs in our devlopment did not allow for any pines or eucalyptus to be planted anywhere. And those on the open space lots could not have any trees in there.

[DoomsDave]

The problem in San Diego, and in the rest of Coastal California is coastal vegetation.

Note a number of things:  Baja California Norte, which adjoins SD county almost never gets wildfires like SD does.  Why not?  Because in Mexico, fires burn frequently, but not as hot.

Fires like the one we just had are the result of decades of suppression.  Like unpaid interest on a debt, dead brush accumulates until it becomes a massive tinderbox.

And that stuff BURNS, ladies and germans.  Those of you still lucky enough to have some unburnt scrub near you should harvest some dead branches and put them in your fireplace.  WHOOSH!  Up they go, fast and hot.

The plants really need fire for vitality.  

The problem of suppressed burns has been well-known for years.  In the 1970s, controlled burns were tried in the Santa Monica mountains to avoid a reply of the hideous Bel Air fire of the early 1960s.  

CLICK TO SEE WHAT'S SCARY AND FAMILIAR

People complained -- "you're getting ashes in my swimming pool!"  And, worse, some of those controlled burns weren't.  EEK!  Trial lawyer time . . .

If we don't find a way to do something about the brush problem, we are doomed to ever-more-horrific replays of the past few days.

Very sobering, indeed . . . .

[BS Man about Palms]

Nice article Dave. Thats the fire that I first "heard" the ORIGINAL PHRASE "Santana Winds" on an old newsreel.  You ca also read in the text the same word reference.  I used to like to call them Santana's, but I got too many (incorrect) "corrections".

[happ]

Thorough discussion of a historic fire, Dave    

Autumn means fires!

I was surprised to read that San Diego county does not have a fire department and that San Diego city fire department is smaller than San Francisco's  

[Mark@PalmBeach]

(palmmermaid @ Oct. 25 2007,13:48)

QUOTE

Here in Florida, especially in the pine flatlands, fire is necessary for rgowth of the pines.  If you look at the long-leaf and slash pine, you will notice that they don't have many lower branches.  That is their protection from fire.  And the cones don't open until a fire heats them up to a certain temperature.  The fires keep the underbrush from getting too think.  The Serenoa repens can withstand up to 850 degrees of heat before it is killed or even severely damaged.  I have seen new growth in 1 week after a wildfire.  I think if you have no brush and your palms are tall enough, then the fire can't spread as fast.  What you don't want is a canopy fire.  Lower limbs can attribute to canopy fires.

I can personal attest to this. A couple months back, lightening hit one of my pines. The Serenoa repens around it burned. A couple of months later not only is the pine tree still okay, but the palms have regrown most of their fronds  except a tall one in the middle of the 'zone' that burned pretty hot. A squirrel and an indigo snake were not so lucky.

[PalmGuyWC]

This discussion is not only depressing, it's begining to scare the hell out of me. I've had the attitude, "It couldn't happen to me." WRONG!!! I was just out looking around and I have a 350 year old Oak, one that is just beginning to drop it's leaves and they are dry. It's growing just east of my house, the direction a Diablo wind would come from. I'm sure with the same conditions you have had in S. Calif. this week, if ignited, the tree would litterally explode with flame. My neighbors have large oak limbs hanging over my property.

Humm, I have a shake roof too....an old one and it needs replacing.  Anyone got 30 K? I just noticed my two tallest Washingtonias that haven't sheaded all of their shag are "kind of" over my driveway, and "kind of" positioned over my roof. I'm getting peranoid.

There is not much I can do about the oak, nor would I want too. It's a heritage tree and protected....and it's beautiful.  I'm thinking a new fire retardent roof is in order and very soon and maybe a sprinkler system on the roof too.

Dick

[DoomsDave]

(PalmGuyWC @ Oct. 27 2007,15:33)

QUOTE

This discussion is not only depressing, it's begining to scare the hell out of me. I've had the attitude, "It couldn't happen to me." WRONG!!! I was just out looking around and I have a 350 year old Oak, one that is just beginning to drop it's leaves and they are dry. It's growing just east of my house, the direction a Diablo wind would come from. I'm sure with the same conditions you have had in S. Calif. this week, if ignited, the tree would litterally explode with flame. My neighbors have large oak limbs hanging over my property.

Humm, I have a shake roof too....an old one and it needs replacing.  Anyone got 30 K? I just noticed my two tallest Washingtonias that haven't sheaded all of their shag are "kind of" over my driveway, and "kind of" positioned over my roof. I'm getting peranoid.

There is not much I can do about the oak, nor would I want too. It's a heritage tree and protected....and it's beautiful.  I'm thinking a new fire retardent roof is in order and very soon and maybe a sprinkler system on the roof too.

Dick

You are right to be very VERY concerned.

Until 2003, the worst fire in U.S. history (for property losses) was the fire in the Berkeley Hills.  I will never forget that poor schlub running up and down the stairs of what was a doomed house, taking inventory of everything.  Out every single window, walls of flames.

You could see the fire miles out to sea.

(The guy's house didn't burn, but it was the only one in its 'hood.)

And!  Here's the best part!

You don't really face the choice between heritage and housing.  In other words, you can still have the big oaks.  They're designed to withstand fires.  The fallen leaves burn, but nothing like chaparral.  That's why they live to be 1,000 years old.  They're tough.  (Like the chaparral, but in a different way.)

What made that B. Hills fire so terrible was all the trees, especially pine and Euc.

I feel a thread coming on . . .

dave

[happ]

Dave, did you experience the Berkeley/Oakland Hills fire?

[Tess]

Was watching the news last night and they were showing the devistation of a neighborhood swept by the flames.  There was a washy robusta in the middle of a yard with no other trees or shrubs around it and the poor thing was burning.

Most of the trunk was smoldering and small flames were lapping out of the top portion -the crown was toasted.  My guess is that the intense heat carried by the winds prior to the fire actually arriving dried it out, and ultimately, it didn't stand a chance.

I don't see how these skinny robby trunks could survive this, but time will tell.

Many of the washy filifera in Palm Canyon (Palm Springs, CA) have charred trunks, but those were intentially set on fire a number of years ago and didn't have to endure these fire storm conditions.  They are all doing quite well.

[happ]

Lots of tv footage of homes leveled yet queen/king palms standing [maybe just damaged but doomed w/o water  

[Palmsbro]

  Wild Sabal palmetto and Serenoa repens can endure so much fire that their trunks look pure shiny black. Serenoa repens evolved to withstand fire and Sabal Etonia also.