Is the Syagrus romanzoffiana var. litoralis cold hardier ?

[MarcusH]

I hear people saying that the var. Litoralis is cold hardier than the "standard " Queen. Does anyone of you guys have any experience with this variant?  If so what's the coldest temperature you experienced with this particular palm?  

[mnorell]

There is no "v. litoralis"...that is a fabricated name, just like 'Silver Queen,' apparently for commercial/marketing purposes and who knows what actual plants/seed are being sold under that name today. That name was, I believe, said to refer to a population from coastal Southern Brasil (which is cooler but doesn't experience extreme cold). I grew a small one said to be this "form" when I lived in Natchez, in a very protected spot in our courtyard, and it was just about the slowest palm I ever saw, and if I remember properly, finally died around 20F/upper teens in a hard freeze.

There are forms around, mostly in North Central Florida apparently, that have been "filtered" through cold-snaps over the years, with small seeds and large, robust trunks, with supposed hardiness into the teens; and you can try to locate these forms from other IPS/PalmTalk members before you go searching for seed from South America, which may be very difficult to import. The hardier provenances are purportedly from interior Santa Catarina, Paraná and Rio Grande do Sul states of Brasil, at altitude. You will find the long "master thread" dealing with pretty much everything you wanted to know on this subject, complete with photos, with info from some authorities on the subject (e.g., Alberto and Nigel)...here. There may also be hardy provenances in Uruguay, see here. Also a supposed hardier form growing in Charleston, here.

[SeanK]

37 minutes ago, mnorell said:

There is no "v. litoralis"...that is a fabricated name, just like 'Silver Queen,' apparently for commercial/marketing purposes and who knows what actual plants/seed are being sold under that name today. That name was, I believe, said to refer to a population from coastal Southern Brasil (which is cooler but doesn't experience extreme cold). I grew a small one said to be this "form" when I lived in Natchez, in a very protected spot in our courtyard, and it was just about the slowest palm I ever saw, and if I remember properly, finally died around 20F/upper teens in a hard freeze.

There are forms around, mostly in North Central Florida apparently, that have been "filtered" through cold-snaps over the years, with small seeds and large, robust trunks, with supposed hardiness into the teens; and you can try to locate these forms from other IPS/PalmTalk members before you go searching for seed from South America, which may be very difficult to import. The hardier provenances are purportedly from interior Santa Catarina, Paraná and Rio Grande do Sul states of Brasil, at altitude. You will find the long "master thread" dealing with pretty much everything you wanted to know on this subject, complete with photos, with info from some authorities on the subject (e.g., Alberto and Nigel)...here. There may also be hardy provenances in Uruguay, see here. Also a supposed hardier form growing in Charleston, here.

Just like "filibusta", for a palm that may be the offspring of two or one species.

[DAVEinMB]

I have one of the Charleston Queens from the Doc's garden and a couple Uruguay queens. I tried litoralis a couple years ago but it didn't make it through its first winter. Appearance of the litoralis may differ from standard form but I'm not convinced they are any more cold tolerant

Edited November 2, 2023 by DAVEinMB

[mnorell]

4 hours ago, SeanK said:

Just like "filibusta", for a palm that may be the offspring of two or one species.

No, Washingtonia x filibusta is a name published by Don Hodel in 2014, although Kew for one doesn't accept it for some unstated reason, and thus calls it an "unplaced" name (see the ref at Kew here). But most importantly, it is a logical and at least popularly accepted name that refers to a hybrid between two known species, which is a rather straightforward and reproducible combination.

In the case of the queen, the name "v. litoralis" has never been published, and varietal status has rather strict requirements that relate to the stability of its genetics, regarding specific traits that distinguish it from the species in a meaningful way. There are several other varieties that have been described and published, but all of those validly published names are heterotypic (not based on the original holotype) and that can complicate the matter of acceptance by authorities or institutions.

This business of spurious names is a common problem in the plant trade, and many plants like "v. litoralis" pop up in someone's catalogue or online, with absolutely no provenance provided. For example, there is a plant that has become popular in the trade both online and particularly in the Florida nursery trade that is being sold as Gardenia taitensis 'Heaven Scent.'  Not only is this an unpublished name, but there is no indication that this plant has any relation to Gardenia taitensis to begin with. At best it might be a hybrid between G. taitensis and G. augusta, but nothing to my knowledge has ever been published describing any parentage, nor the origin of this rather bizarre plant with bizarre revolute leaves that resemble nothing I've seen in G. taitensis, and grotesque congested flowers that smell something like the buttery G. augusta (and nothing like the more citrus-oriented G. taitensis). And the real problem happens when someone then starts selling these plants just as G. taitensis. Thus confusion sets in and it is difficult to know what plant is actually being sold. A similar problem exists in the Florida nursery trade (and beyond to some extent) with a species of Clusia that has become very popular for hedging, almost completely supplanting the old stalwart and Florida-native C. rosea. It is sold usually as Clusia rosea 'small leaf' although in actuality it is a Brasilian species, C. fluminensis. And some vendors/nurseries just sell it as "Clusia" or "Clusia rosea." More confusion ensues. Such are the difficulties of combining some sense of scientific organization with the carnival-barkers that occasionally grab and hold the attention of the plant trade.

[SeanK]

Before we state (imply) that Washingtonia is comprised of two distinct species,new first need a genotype definition for delineating between species under a genus. So long as we rely on phenotype, we can say that collies are a different species than rottweilers.

[SeanK]

9 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I hear people saying that the var. Litoralis is cold hardier than the "standard " Queen. Does anyone of you guys have any experience with this variant?  If so what's the coldest temperature you experienced with this particular palm?  

Years ago there was a gentleman in the Southeastern Palm Society (IPS affiliate) growing these in St Mary's, GA. He claimed they had a few added degrees of cold-hardiness. I have not heard from him in many years.

[Chester B]

I agree with with what @mnorell has said above.  Based on most people's observations growing these who participate in this forum, it appears that there is no difference in cold hardiness.

Whenever I get out of here, I have regular queens, "litoralis"  and "santa catarina" queens all coming with me to Houston.  So I will plant them all out and report back what I observe in the coming years.  

[JohnAndSancho]

40 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I agree with with what @mnorell has said above.  Based on most people's observations growing these who participate in this forum, it appears that there is no difference in cold hardiness.

Whenever I get out of here, I have regular queens, "litoralis"  and "santa catarina" queens all coming with me to Houston.  So I will plant them all out and report back what I observe in the coming years.  

I miss Houston, and I wish I had gotten into palms when I still lived there. 

[Banana Belt]

4 hours ago, mnorell said:

difficulties of combining some sense of scientific organization with the carnival-barkers

Imagine the same motives when people digging for fossils find something slightly different, species names come flying out like sawdust from a chainsaw.  Most of the names given to a species are eventually replaced, tossed out or ignored by someone else barking out a new name.  Crazy how names seem to evolove and change faster than the species.

[MarcusH]

Thanks everyone that's what I thought because if that would be the case we wouldn't have the mule palm that comes with the more cold tolerance.  Basically it's just a click bait online.