Palms of Tokyo (Disney)

[fr8train]

I figured I'd post this here as they're mostly cold hardy varieties and they'd get more love. Tokyo is another city I don't associate with palms, like London, yet they thrive here. 

[fr8train]

[fr8train]

I'm not sure what these are? Kinda look like Sabals but they have thorns on their leaf stalks. 

[fr8train]

[Trustandi]

  On 10/26/2023 at 5:20 AM, fr8train said:

I'm not sure what these are? Kinda look like Sabals but they have thorns on their leaf stalks. 

 

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They are livistona chinensis, I think.

[Las Palmas Norte]

  On 10/26/2023 at 5:20 AM, fr8train said:

I'm not sure what these are? Kinda look like Sabals but they have thorns on their leaf stalks. 

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Livistona chinensis

[fr8train]

  On 10/26/2023 at 5:29 AM, Trustandi said:

They are livistona chinensis, I think.

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Interesting, thank you 

Here's a thread I made about the dwarf butia in the first few photos: 

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/81565-dwarf-or-mutant-butia-or-an-injury-of-some-sort/

 

[SeanK]

  On 10/26/2023 at 5:51 AM, Las Palmas Norte said:

Livistona chinensis

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My guess, too. So that area is z9a maybe. 

[Chester B]

  On 10/26/2023 at 4:56 PM, SeanK said:

My guess, too. So that area is z9a maybe. 

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Trunking cordylines don't get to that size below zone 9.   I looked it up and what I found is that Tokyo is zone 10A according to the map I was looking at.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Chester B

[SeanK]

  On 10/26/2023 at 5:22 PM, Chester B said:

Trunking cordylines don't get to that size below zone 9.   I looked it up and what I found is that Tokyo is zone 10A according to the map I was looking at.

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Surprising at 35°N. I checked worldclimate dot com and it says ave-min is 30.7° for Jan (1876-1990). Minus 3 standard deviations for a zone rating.  I don't believe z10.

The palms are all cold-hardy. One B.armata, a lot of B.odorata, P.canarienses, W.robusta. The Livistona is the most tender from the pix.

Edited October 26, 2023 by SeanK
Listed palms

[Xerarch]

Not a bad selection of 9a and hardier stuff, nice to see

[SeanK]

  On 10/26/2023 at 11:14 PM, Xerarch said:

Not a bad selection of 9a and hardier stuff, nice to see

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It's probably z9b. I read some more and since 2000, it's been about 36° average minimum in January with a sigma of 4F°

[mnorell]

  On 10/26/2023 at 10:27 PM, SeanK said:

Surprising at 35°N. I checked worldclimate dot com and it says ave-min is 30.7° for Jan (1876-1990). Minus 3 standard deviations for a zone rating.  I don't believe z10.

The palms are all cold-hardy. One B.armata, a lot of B.odorata, P.canarienses, W.robusta. The Livistona is the most tender from the pix.

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Actually the two Hyophorbe in picture #5 would be the most tender; followed by the Phoenix reclinata. I assume if they expect frosts that the Plumerias are plunged and removed during winter (they might want to do this due to their usually deciduous nature, anyway). But the Scheffleras and several others also indicate that frosts are rare. Having lived in a humid 9a environment (Deep South) I know that 23-24F is the leaf-damage threshold for Washingtonia robusta, Livistona chinensis and several others (such as Bismarckia) in that type of climate. Not sure why that seems to be a common "breaking point" but it is in my experience (in Natchez, Mississippi). Disney is not in the business of protecting plants constantly (only in rare freezes, as they do at WDW; but we all know it is a PITA and very costly on a large scale) so one must assume this is a 9b or 10a climate, even if marginally so. 

One thing I can't make out is the identity of the large, spreading, thick-trunked dicot trees visible in some shots (e.g., #5 and many others). They are quite tropical-looking to my eyes...does anyone know what they are? If they are some sort of Ficus then it would follow that they expect 28 or greater in most years or they would have a nasty-looking landscape to be sure...

[Xerarch]

  On 10/27/2023 at 1:15 AM, SeanK said:

It's probably z9b. I read some more and since 2000, it's been about 36° average minimum in January with a sigma of 4F°

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According to a USDA zone map of Japan on Plantmaps, the coastal area of Tokyo is 10a, while Wikipedia has the average low for January as 34 degrees, and an average high not reaching 50, while the record low is 15.  The wikipedia doesn't mention the lowest yearly temp to expect.

[SeanK]

  On 10/27/2023 at 1:52 AM, mnorell said:

Actually the two Hyophorbe in picture #5 would be the most tender; followed by the Phoenix reclinata. I assume if they expect frosts that the Plumerias are plunged and removed during winter (they might want to do this due to their usually deciduous nature, anyway). But the Scheffleras and several others also indicate that frosts are rare. Having lived in a humid 9a environment (Deep South) I know that 23-24F is the leaf-damage threshold for Washingtonia robusta, Livistona chinensis and several others (such as Bismarckia) in that type of climate. Not sure why that seems to be a common "breaking point" but it is in my experience (in Natchez, Mississippi). Disney is not in the business of protecting plants constantly (only in rare freezes, as they do at WDW; but we all know it is a PITA and very costly on a large scale) so one must assume this is a 9b or 10a climate, even if marginally so. 

One thing I can't make out is the identity of the large, spreading, thick-trunked dicot trees visible in some shots (e.g., #5 and many others). They are quite tropical-looking to my eyes...does anyone know what they are? If they are some sort of Ficus then it would follow that they expect 28 or greater in most years or they would have a nasty-looking landscape to be sure...

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I think an on-site investigation may be called for.

[Las Palmas Norte]

  On 10/27/2023 at 11:11 AM, SeanK said:

I think an on-site investigation may be called for.

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Calling all Tokyo members 😁

[SeanK]

  On 10/27/2023 at 1:52 AM, mnorell said:

Actually the two Hyophorbe in picture #5 would be the most tender; followed by the Phoenix reclinata. I assume if they expect frosts that the Plumerias are plunged and removed during winter (they might want to do this due to their usually deciduous nature, anyway). But the Scheffleras and several others also indicate that frosts are rare. Having lived in a humid 9a environment (Deep South) I know that 23-24F is the leaf-damage threshold for Washingtonia robusta, Livistona chinensis and several others (such as Bismarckia) in that type of climate. Not sure why that seems to be a common "breaking point" but it is in my experience (in Natchez, Mississippi). Disney is not in the business of protecting plants constantly (only in rare freezes, as they do at WDW; but we all know it is a PITA and very costly on a large scale) so one must assume this is a 9b or 10a climate, even if marginally so. 

One thing I can't make out is the identity of the large, spreading, thick-trunked dicot trees visible in some shots (e.g., #5 and many others). They are quite tropical-looking to my eyes...does anyone know what they are? If they are some sort of Ficus then it would follow that they expect 28 or greater in most years or they would have a nasty-looking landscape to be sure...

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Those Spindles may be potted.

[Foxpalms]

  On 10/26/2023 at 5:22 PM, Chester B said:

Trunking cordylines don't get to that size below zone 9.   I looked it up and what I found is that Tokyo is zone 10A according to the map I was looking at.

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I would with agree that, Tokyo has the world's largest urban heat island and part of it is along the coast. 37 million people live in greater Tokyo so you can imagine how much of a difference that makes. London has a large UHI that can easily make a 7c difference to the temps compared to the countryside and It looks tiny in comparison to Tokyos.

[mnorell]

  On 10/27/2023 at 6:04 PM, SeanK said:

Those Spindles may be potted.

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I don't think those are spindles, to me they look like H. indica or H. lagenicaulis. But they look a little odd, the front one looks distorted for some reason...and I'm inclined to think you're right, possibly either plunged in pots; or planted, then dug up in fall.

[Neolitsea]

  On 10/27/2023 at 1:52 AM, mnorell said:

One thing I can't make out is the identity of the large, spreading, thick-trunked dicot trees visible in some shots (e.g., #5 and many others). They are quite tropical-looking to my eyes...does anyone know what they are? If they are some sort of Ficus then it would follow that they expect 28 or greater in most years or they would have a nasty-looking landscape to be sure...

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I think you are referring to Machilus thunbergii (syn. Persea thunbergii). They are usually hardy to zone 8a, perhaps zone 7b depending on the provenance.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Neolitsea

[SFLP48584]

  On 10/27/2023 at 9:12 PM, Foxpalms said:

I would with agree that, Tokyo has the world's largest urban heat island and part of it is along the coast. 37 million people live in greater Tokyo so you can imagine how much of a difference that makes. London has a large UHI that can easily make a 7c difference to the temps compared to the countryside and It looks tiny in comparison to Tokyos.

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Fascinating!

-John

[mnorell]

  On 11/1/2023 at 2:17 AM, Neolitsea said:

I think you are referring to Machilus thunbergii (syn. Persea thunbergii). They are usually hardy to zone 8a, perhaps zone 7b depending on the provenance.

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Wow, thanks, Moonkyu! That is such a great-looking tree and hard to believe it is an evergreen and hardy down to 8a. It really has that big jungle tree tropical vibe!

I have never seen it planted in the USA and I wish I had one of these back when I was living in the Deep South. I just googled it and see that Woodlanders Nursery in South Carolina has it currently on offer, raised from seed of a tree growing in Aiken, South Carolina and proven reliably hardy there. If anyone's interested, here's the listing.

 

[Las Palmas Norte]

  On 11/1/2023 at 7:25 AM, mnorell said:

Wow, thanks, Moonkyu! That is such a great-looking tree and hard to believe it is an evergreen and hardy down to 8a. It really has that big jungle tree tropical vibe!

I have never seen it planted in the USA and I wish I had one of these back when I was living in the Deep South. I just googled it and see that Woodlanders Nursery in South Carolina has it currently on offer, raised from seed of a tree growing in Aiken, South Carolina and proven reliably hardy there. If anyone's interested, here's the listing.

 

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I have one plated here (Pacific coast of Canada) and another potted that I'm undecided on whether to plant or sell. I got the seed from an enthusiast in the Willamette Valley region of Oregon some years ago. There's plenty of BLE's that are hardy in zone 8 and some colder.

[mnorell]

  On 11/1/2023 at 3:51 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

I have one plated here (Pacific coast of Canada) and another potted that I'm undecided on whether to plant or sell. I got the seed from an enthusiast in the Willamette Valley region of Oregon some years ago. There's plenty of BLE's that are hardy in zone 8 and some colder.

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I'm surprised that, if it has indeed been in cultivation here and there over the years, it's not become more common in the warmer belts of North America. The fact that you are growing it on the Pacific Coast of Canada obviously shows it has a great deal of adaptability. Are there issues with it (other than large size) that would make it objectionable in any way? I wonder if it is susceptible to Laurel Wilt, which has caused a lot of problems for some species in this family in the southeast U.S. Of course, there are also the usual forces of inertia both in the horticulture/nursery industry and in terms of public acceptance of something new. When I lived in Natchez I was always testing out less common broad-leaf evergreens from eastern Asia (such as evergreen dogwood and some of the hardier Michelia and Camellia spp.) but there are only a few nurseries like Woodlanders and Camellia Forest (and Cistus in the PNW) that make them available.

In any event, at least to my eyes, this tree really helps lend a tropical feel to those areas of Tokyo Disneyland, and in the photos it seems an excellent companion to all of these palms. I would think WDW could make good use of this tree as a dependably hardy ("1989-proof") backbone species in their tropically themed areas, if it proved adaptable and relatively trouble-free.

[Chester B]

I've seen this one for sale here in the Portland area.  Too big for my yard.

[fr8train]

I had forgotten this photo. It's outside of Disney in Roppongi, I think, which is a neighborhood in Tokyo. Outside of Disney I didn't see that many palms sadly, even though they seem to grow so well there.

[Calosphace]

I would be willing to bet the Hyophorbe is not fully planted but in a planted container. These would be picked up and placed in the greenhouse come winter.  We do something similar at work with tropical specimen plants. If you look at its footprint there is much more room around it than around any of the other plants in the same bed.

If anyone wants to give me a ticket so I can verify, I'd welcome it!

 

Recognized the Livingstonia immediately, we have these at work and they are nastily invasive here and the leaves always get a disease yet they still reseed worse than any other palm. In US there's really no reason to not just plant a Sabal instead (east) or Washingtonia (west). nice to see them looking better (as expected) closer to their native haunts

The trunking cordylines are really impressive to me. I've never seen any get that large where I live. Judging by that, it seems Tokyo Disney might be more conservative with its palm choices (with regard to cold tolerance) than growers here in FL? But it also could differences in availability, I imagine a Mule palm wouldn't be as easy to get in Japan for example. Also surprised to not see many Rhapis which are Asian in origin with some being Japanese even so I wouldn't expect them to be less available

[SeanK]

  On 11/4/2023 at 10:35 PM, Calosphace said:

I would be willing to bet the Hyophorbe is not fully planted but in a planted container. These would be picked up and placed in the greenhouse come winter.  We do something similar at work with tropical specimen plants. If you look at its footprint there is much more room around it than around any of the other plants in the same bed.

If anyone wants to give me a ticket so I can verify, I'd welcome it!

 

Recognized the Livingstonia immediately, we have these at work and they are nastily invasive here and the leaves always get a disease yet they still reseed worse than any other palm. In US there's really no reason to not just plant a Sabal instead (east) or Washingtonia (west). nice to see them looking better (as expected) closer to their native haunts

The trunking cordylines are really impressive to me. I've never seen any get that large where I live. Judging by that, it seems Tokyo Disney might be more conservative with its palm choices (with regard to cold tolerance) than growers here in FL? But it also could differences in availability, I imagine a Mule palm wouldn't be as easy to get in Japan for example. Also surprised to not see many Rhapis which are Asian in origin with some being Japanese even so I wouldn't expect them to be less available

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I can grab free Livistona seedlings where?

[Calosphace]

  On 11/4/2023 at 11:26 PM, SeanK said:

I can grab free Livistona seedlings where?

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Plenty of counties in FL

youre also welcome to weed hundreds of them at my job haha

[conceptualizeme]

Not a bad assortment of 8a-9b stuff.

Most of it is seemingly bulletproof (Canaries, Chamaerops, Sabals, Butia); their worst freeze was 32f daytime to 17f nighttime to >32f daytime to 15.44f nighttime in 1876. So pretty much identical if a little less harsh than Charleston, SC in December 1989 which had a lot of those pull through from what I've seen, but lots of those Livistonia and maybe pure Robusta may not survive with the record.

Although since then the UHI has massively increased in density and size, so it's probably unlikely to ever happen again just like some of those scary London readings.

Yet another necro but I've been on quite a freeze damage/possibilities binge lately. Help.