How did the Syagrus romanzoffiana do in that region did they take much damage? Did any die?

All Queens died on North Padre Island, I was curious to see if those further south in Texas had any Queens that did not survive or if there were no casualties reported that far south?

Thanks

24 minutes ago, Dwarf Fan said:

How did the Syagrus romanzoffiana do in that region did they take much damage? Did any die?

All Queens died on North Padre Island, I was curious to see if those further south in Texas had any Queens that did not survive or if there were no casualties reported that far south?

Thanks

Brownsville? Practically none died. Just some minor to moderate cosmetic damage on the leaves, many stayed mostly green. Some looked nearly undamaged in the warmer parts of central and southeast Brownsville.

For comparison anywhere from about half to 2/3 of the royal and foxtail palms survived depending on the area. 

BTW, there are still queen palms in your area. @Xerarch knows of more 

Haven't been to Brownsville in a minute, but in McAllen and Rio-Grande city they all did fine, I spotted a few dead but it was pretty rare, Royals in both cities were hit hard, 25-30% died

30 minutes ago, Dwarf Fan said:

How did the Syagrus romanzoffiana do in that region did they take much damage? Did any die?

All Queens died on North Padre Island, I was curious to see if those further south in Texas had any Queens that did not survive or if there were no casualties reported that far south?

Thanks

I can't speak for Brownsville but here in Rio Hondo (about 20 miles to the north) there were some casualties to both Syagrus romanzoffiana and Roystonea regia.  The Syagrus aren't necessarily well taken care of so hard to say how they might have fared if they had good treatment.  Plenty of survivors of both here and in Brownsville.

Considering Corpus got hammered, I was pretty surprised to see this big queen palm on 77 north of Kingsville. It looks really "impressive" driving by considering it's almost in the middle of nowhere with not much urbanization and far from the water. The power of latitude?

31 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Brownsville? Practically none died. Just some minor to moderate cosmetic damage on the leaves, many stayed mostly green. Some looked nearly undamaged in the warmer parts of central and southeast Brownsville.

For comparison anywhere from about half to 2/3 of the royal and foxtail palms survived depending on the area. 

BTW, there are still queen palms in your area. @Xerarch knows of more 

There are a lot of queen survivors in Corpus, a single-digit percentage of what was here pre-freeze, but a solid number in total, I keep finding more tucked in neighborhoods etc as time goes on, that I am sure aren’t re-plants. Initially I was taking pictures of them for a thread I had about Corpus survivors, but I stopped taking them because I kept finding more and it’s not always convenient to stop and take a picture. But here are a few that I photographed.
 

22 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Considering Corpus got hammered, I was pretty surprised to see this big queen palm on 77 north of Kingsville. It looks really "impressive" driving by considering it's almost in the middle of nowhere with not much urbanization and far from the water. The power of latitude?

 

The pattern of what survived where was strange in ‘21 freeze, a lot of things look a little better even just a little inland, Alice, Kingsville, Bishop etc. For example, Italian Cypress got smoked in Corpus, I was baffled since these grow in zone 8 just fine in places like Utah or New Mexico. They took noticeably less damage in Kingsville, Alice etc. I suppose this has to due with humidity, columnar cactus melted in Corpus  but looked better inland. There is an excellent looking Saguaro in Cotulla that surely saw lower temps than here. As for queens I’ve seen a few in Kingsville and other surrounding towns, I regret to admit this to myself but they may have performed just a bit better there than in Corpus proper. 
 

At the same time there is definitely a line at Nueces River/Corpus Christi Bay. Even right at Portland on north side of the bay, damage was worse there vs Corpus for sure, as it was in Dec 2022. 

24 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

There are a lot of queen survivors in Corpus, a single-digit percentage of what was here pre-freeze, but a solid number in total, I keep finding more tucked in neighborhoods etc as time goes on, that I am sure aren’t re-plants. Initially I was taking pictures of them for a thread I had about Corpus survivors, but I stopped taking them because I kept finding more and it’s not always convenient to stop and take a picture. But here are a few that I photographed.
 

That's amazing I mean I sometimes go to CC and I haven't seen many at all.  There's a business on 358 that has quite a few Queen palms and they don't look like the were recently planted . 

3 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

That's amazing I mean I sometimes go to CC and I haven't seen many at all.  There's a business on 358 that has quite a few Queen palms and they don't look like the were recently planted . 

There were some planted around at a bit larger sizes so you have to be careful about determining if they were here before or not. You don’t really notice many larger queens just going around town to the store etc. but when you really get back/behind/in/around/between etc. you find quite a few. 

1 minute ago, Xerarch said:

There were some planted around at a bit larger sizes so you have to be careful about determining if they were here before or not. You don’t really notice many larger queens just going around town to the store etc. but when you really get back/behind/in/around/between etc. you find quite a few. 

Could be all possible,  in most cases I see newly planted Queens in CC.  I couldn't believe when I saw a recently 10 footer Queen planted at the Riverwalk in San Antonio . I thought I'm the only crazy one who's growing two Queens in a zone 8b/9a

25 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

The pattern of what survived where was strange in ‘21 freeze, a lot of things look a little better even just a little inland, Alice, Kingsville, Bishop etc. For example, Italian Cypress got smoked in Corpus, I was baffled since these grow in zone 8 just fine in places like Utah or New Mexico. They took noticeably less damage in Kingsville, Alice etc. I suppose this has to due with humidity, columnar cactus melted in Corpus  but looked better inland. There is an excellent looking Saguaro in Cotulla that surely saw lower temps than here. As for queens I’ve seen a few in Kingsville and other surrounding towns, I regret to admit this to myself but they may have performed just a bit better there than in Corpus proper. 
 

At the same time there is definitely a line at Nueces River/Corpus Christi Bay. Even right at Portland on north side of the bay, damage was worse there vs Corpus for sure, as it was in Dec 2022. 

There were a pair of 2000s planted royals in Kingsville that survived the 2011 freeze and probably up till 2021(?).  Seems like daytime heat really helps? Royal palms in Hidalgo, TX south of McAllen looked better than they do on South Padre post 2021. McAlen also fared better than Brownsville/coast during the Dec 2022 freeze and it shows in the degree of damage to tropicals. 

Oh and Laredo has tons of queen palms...at the exact same latitude as Corpus! 

I don't think the cold is the only factor that killed queens on North Padre. 90% of the queens looked atrocious yellow with frizzle top long before any freeze 😆.They really don't like the sand and horrible tap water. Anyways, here's what a casual "where's Waldo for freeze surviving queen palms on North Padre" found:

These survived to be tortured some more!

 

Some ok looking ones

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 20232 yr by Xenon

Agreed, and yeah they’re still there on N Padre, just a fraction of what was before and you have to hunt around a little. 

2 minutes ago, Xenon said:

They really don't like the sand and horrible tap water

I think you make a good point about both Sand and bad water with respect to health of a Queen palm.  Sand is not a very nutrient rich soil, nor does it provide any stabalization.  Queen Palms seem to be a weakly rooted palm in best of conditions and will tip and rock in a strong wind or gentle push.  Combine both these conditions, nutrient poor sand and wind, and any Queen Palm is going to have a hard time.

7 hours ago, Xenon said:

Considering Corpus got hammered, I was pretty surprised to see this big queen palm on 77 north of Kingsville. It looks really "impressive" driving by considering it's almost in the middle of nowhere with not much urbanization and far from the water. The power of latitude?

So “high Humidity” and “wet cold” keep coming up as deadly killers when cold hardiness limits are tested.

8 hours ago, Xenon said:

Brownsville? Practically none died. Just some minor to moderate cosmetic damage on the leaves, many stayed mostly green. Some looked nearly undamaged in the warmer parts of central and southeast Brownsville.

For comparison anywhere from about half to 2/3 of the royal and foxtail palms survived depending on the area. 

BTW, there are still queen palms in your area. @Xerarch knows of more 
 

 

Thank you for the clarification Jonathan, I was going off of what my neighbors collectively recalled, I didn’t live on the Island at the time, but it is safe to say that the Queen population on the Island was almost completely decimated. And some of the smaller Queens in the 2023 Google maps street view I feel may have been planted post Feb 2021. What I find interesting is that 10% of surviving Queens had cold hardy enough genetics to beat out the other 90% of their peers.

7 hours ago, Xerarch said:

There are a lot of queen survivors in Corpus, a single-digit percentage of what was here pre-freeze, but a solid number in total, I keep finding more tucked in neighborhoods etc as time goes on, that I am sure aren’t re-plants. Initially I was taking pictures of them for a thread I had about Corpus survivors, but I stopped taking them because I kept finding more and it’s not always convenient to stop and take a picture. But here are a few that I photographed.

Clearly not ALL Queens we’re lost, but a “single digit percentage” survival rate really puts the Queen death toll into perspective. Yikes! 😳 

7 hours ago, Xerarch said:

The pattern of what survived where was strange in ‘21 freeze, a lot of things look a little better even just a little inland, Alice, Kingsville, Bishop etc. For example, Italian Cypress got smoked in Corpus, I was baffled since these grow in zone 8 just fine in places like Utah or New Mexico. They took noticeably less damage in Kingsville, Alice etc. I suppose this has to due with humidity, columnar cactus melted in Corpus  but looked better inland. There is an excellent looking Saguaro in Cotulla that surely saw lower temps than here. As for queens I’ve seen a few in Kingsville and other surrounding towns, I regret to admit this to myself but they may have performed just a bit better there than in Corpus proper. 
 

At the same time there is definitely a line at Nueces River/Corpus Christi Bay. Even right at Portland on north side of the bay, damage was worse there vs Corpus for sure, as it was in Dec 2022. 

Again we see “high Humidity” and “wet cold” being the “least tolerable” type of cold.

6 hours ago, Xenon said:

There were a pair of 2000s planted royals in Kingsville that survived the 2011 freeze and probably up till 2021(?).  Seems like daytime heat really helps? Royal palms in Hidalgo, TX south of McAllen looked better than they do on South Padre post 2021. McAlen also fared better than Brownsville/coast during the Dec 2022 freeze and it shows in the degree of damage to tropicals. 

Oh and Laredo has tons of queen palms...at the exact same latitude as Corpus! 

I don't think the cold is the only factor that killed queens on North Padre. 90% of the queens looked atrocious yellow with frizzle top long before any freeze 😆.They really don't like the sand and horrible tap water.

 

 

 

 

 

Daytime heat seems to be necessary for vigorous growth as well as Cold Tolerance. I keep hearing Palm health going into an extreme cold weather event as being another mitigating factor.

15 minutes ago, Dwarf Fan said:

So “high Humidity” and “wet cold” keep coming up as deadly killers when cold hardiness limits are tested.

I was going off of what my neighbors collectively recalled, I didn’t live on the Island at the time, but it is safe to say that the Queen population on the Island was almost completely decimated. And some of the smaller Queens in the 2023 Google maps street view I feel were planted post Feb 2021. What I find interesting that the 10% of surviving Queens had cold hardy enough genetics to beat out 90% of their peers.

 

No, I cross checked the survivors with earlier dates in streetview. I wouldn't immediatetly come to the conclusion that cold hardy genetics are responsible. Most of the queens (not all) were either healthy to begin with or well sited near homes/windbreaks. Again 90% of the queens wanted to die anyway, they are not adapted to a thin sand bar sandwiched between saltwater. I would take a "stroll" on streetview and look at the island pre-2021 and you'll find royals and foxtails everywhere...it's pretty hyperbolic/bordering on fear mongering to say queens are "too tender" for North Padre. Especially considering your average annual minimum low is something around 32F. 1989 killed all of the coconuts in parts of central Florida and there are thousands of them dime a dozen today. 

Anyways, every freeze is different and the 2021 freeze was almost 100% advective with the polar airmass dropping temperatures in the middle of the day (I think RGV recorded their lowest temps sometime in the afternoon, the night temps a few hours later actually rose slightly). It's also extremely bad luck the airmass had a bullseye on Corpus Christi, temps were actually "not as bad relative to latitude" just slightly further to the east (Houston and Beaumont Area). There are many other freezes where water played a huge role in moderating temps like in 2018 or 2010. 

31 minutes ago, Xenon said:

No, I cross checked the survivors with earlier dates in streetview. I wouldn't immediatetly come to the conclusion that cold hardy genetics are responsible. Most of the queens (not all) were either healthy to begin with or well sited near homes/windbreaks. Again 90% of the queens wanted to die anyway, they are not adapted to a thin sand bar sandwiched between saltwater. I would take a "stroll" on streetview and look at the island pre-2021 and you'll find royals and foxtails everywhere...it's pretty hyperbolic/bordering on fear mongering to say queens are "too tender" for North Padre. Especially considering your average annual minimum low is something around 32F. 1989 killed all of the coconuts in parts of central Florida and there are thousands of them dime a dozen today. 

Anyways, every freeze is different and the 2021 freeze was almost 100% advective with the polar airmass dropping temperatures in the middle of the day (I think RGV recorded their lowest temps sometime in the afternoon, the night temps a few hours later actually rose slightly). It's also extremely bad luck the airmass had a bullseye on Corpus Christi, temps were actually "not as bad relative to latitude" just slightly further to the east (Houston and Beaumont Area). There are many other freezes where water played a huge role in moderating temps like in 2018 or 2010. 

These are all well researched and salient points, you got me I admit I was lazy and could have checked the Google Maps street view dates to verify pre February ‘21 status (I did not). 

Clearly I still have a lot of homework yet to do and ground to cover when it comes to Palm knowledge. I just recently got a lesson on what an “advective freeze” was from Alexander at Barton Springs Nursery (very knowledgeable young TX Plantsman). I do believe that a healthy well sited Queen would have stood a much better chance than the marginally healthy Palms that the average resident keeps on life support around here. 

And while I may not ready to toss a Queen in my front yard just quite yet, I do feel more confident putting a Syagrus dominant Mule (Green Boots) in my front yard, hopefully that can at least be considered a step in the right direction.