[SoCal] Area cities need more shade. Time to ditch palm trees?

[Hillizard]

Excerpt from the article:

"'As a heat scholar, I look at palm trees and I think that they don’t really do much in terms of heat mitigation,' said Turner, whose work focuses on cities adapting to hotter conditions. 'A pole on the side of the street isn’t providing much shade. And a palm tree is kind of similar.'

With their towering trunks and thick fronds, palms have long dominated the skyline of the Los Angeles Basin, symbolizing for many the region’s sunny promise of prosperity. As such, they are important to local economies and embedded in the region’s cultural identity. None are native to the area, however.

In the 1800s and 1900s, new Angelenos imported palms from elsewhere in the world. In the 1930s, the city underwent its biggest palm-planting boom, with more than 25,000 palms planted in 1931 alone.

'They conjure up images of far-off, exotic, tropical rain forests, which is a far cry from what I grew up in here in California,' said Donald R. Hodel, emeritus horticulture advisor for the UC Cooperative Extension in L.A. County and a lifelong palm researcher.

But cities nationwide are rethinking the role, and future, of these iconic trees."

http://enewspaper.latimes.com/infinity/article_share.aspx?guid=307b37c5-c47b-48dc-ae41-062ef2619cb2

[flplantguy]

I was wondering when this would make it's way here.  I fight it every day for my job because people want to remove native trees and plant Christmas palms and such.  Yet there are so many understory palms that you can have both and many palms can squeeze in between them for sunlight.  We need both in balance and they seem to be going the other way with the removals.  Crepe myrtles everywhere will get really old fast.

[Tracy]

6 minutes ago, flplantguy said:

I was wondering when this would make it's way here.  I fight it every day for my job because people want to remove native trees and plant Christmas palms and such.  Yet there are so many understory palms that you can have both and many palms can squeeze in between them for sunlight.  We need both in balance and they seem to be going the other way with the removals.  Crepe myrtles everywhere will get really old fast.

Yes, the article in question was front page of the LA Times this morning.  It was interesting to read about the Ficus removal in that they have had articles about the expense to replace sidewalks in LA due to both sidewalk and street damage from their roots.  While I can't argue against planting more trees, removing palms isn't always necessary to create the space.  I have been encouraged by the use of more than just Washingtonia's in my city, but then again it shouldn't be sugprising for a city that bills itself as a Surf and Flower Capital, that for years was known for it's greenhouses.  I found it interesting that the quote from Don was so limited.  I'm sure that given the topic of the article he would have volunteered a little more information about palms and suggested that they can cohabitate with trees in an effort to offer shade and cooling to urban landscapes.  It doesn't need to be a choice of one or the other.

[ruskinPalms]

I think I remember reading about this sort of movement in Miami, another iconic palmy city. I agree, both palms and dicot trees need to be incorporated into the urban landscape. I know ficus are particularly destructive with their roots, but so many places here in Florida see tons of street, sidewalk, road damage from the oaks that are planted. Pretty much any large dicot can bust up pavements. Florida in particular, for the southern 2/3 of the peninsula anyway, has lots of interesting choices for native landscaping that could satisfy everyone if done right and maintain the “tropical” vibe that the chamber of commerce would like to keep. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by ruskinPalms

[rizla023]

I think there’s always the debate between practicality and beauty in landscaping. We do need more shade trees that are adapted to our climate and can provide relief for our communities and lower the temperatures, especially in the city. But there is also an unmatched beauty to palms that adds character and allure to our Mediterranean climate. I believe there can be a good compromise.

[Silas_Sancona]

Agree that both have a place in a landscape, though in my eye, palms are more added decorations on the cake,  than the cake itself in a landscape, even in some tropical climate location.

Looking out at it, While i would rather see something like Brahea or Sabal uresana staring back at me rather than the Mex. fans in the street island, they are a nice addition to the overall landscape scene.



As for Sun / Heat mitigation practicality?  do those palms create any shade? ..Not at all. 

While i wouldn't want to see them chopped down ( Unless replaced by either of the above-mentioned palm options ..and / or maybe a few Royals ) the street island i stare at every day needs canopy forming trees also.... Moderate-sized trees that will tolerate life in a concrete island.  Trees that won't flinch in our extreme heat, that likely is only going to get more extreme ...and extended dry spells,  look good, and are less wind damage susceptible.  There are several options, ..and many more that should be. More than enough space between the existing Washingtonia for shade trees.

As for the " trouble with shade trees " end of the discussion, Overuse of / bad selection of a small palate of tree species, ...in many cases  -but not all- anyway,  ignoring perfectly adapted natives ..which should be first priority, not among the last,  bad placement ( stuffing something that will get large ..and needs more space,  like a Live Oak / many other Quercus sps,  Eucalyptus,  or Ficus   into the smallest of growing space ),  ..and bad cultural practices ( ..over watering of desert / arid adapted trees, and  allowing the lowest denominator of landscape maintenance " professionals " to maintain them are some aspects that contribute to early tree death / susceptibility to disease, and /or  damage to property -related issues that can occur. 

One ..of many... example:

The newer Apartment complex around the corner used Mesquite, Palo Verde and Live Oaks in their perimeter plantings..   While the Mesquite and P.Vs are ideal, from a climate adaptive perspective,  the space allotted for them means they will be grotesquely pruned until they die or come down in a wind event ..and likely damage part of the nearby building they're planted next to.. The fact that they chose Mesquite hybrids, rather than native species is another negative in an otherwise positive since they ..and those originating from S. America.. are more damage prone.

Live Oaks planted were stuffed into tiny cutouts and ..if they manage to live long enough,  will likely damage the sidewalk.  Canopy, if there ever really is one,  will never achieve the desired goal of providing shade for that side of the building ..i don't see how they will anyway.

Another complex that just went up, closer to downtown Chandler used Olive trees ( in really small cutouts ) and several date palms shoved in cutouts really close to the building.  Those shouldn't be an issue ..though some fronds may butt up to the building itself..

Olives? ..they definitely could be a nightmare in the making.. They likely won't ever be able to create an " ideal " amount of shade ( I've shown how Olives given plenty of space are still chopped into squares n' balls here in the past ) and will likely cause damage to the sidewalks / other city property in time.  Simply put, to look good, they need space.. Far better options available that can create shade, look good, and are much less of a property damage threat.



Overall, as stated in past discussions on similar topic,   bigger change from say planting of more palms,  to a push to plant more shade creating trees in city landscapes is about as " what is in style at the moment " as i phones, bell bottoms, and / or fanny packs..

In the past, the desired look in many landscapes in  California ..or FL was based around the look of some place more tropical..  Today, the need is to mitigate negative aspects connected to the climate of the future. When it comes to shade,  a tiny blob of leaves atop a 40-80ft tall pole won't cut it..  That's just reality.

That said, as mentioned,  those 80ft poles and their mop tops have a place in the landscapes of tomorrow.   Balance should be the goal.

Enjoy your cake,  and the decorations atop it too..
 

[FlaPalmLover]

Definitely a "false dilemma." Palm trees are quite often planted in places where a tree that provides shade wouldn't even make sense, for one thing. Businesses and private individuals should be free to plant whatever they want. If I had acreage, I would probably have a mix of both. At best, you might fit a crape myrtle in between a highway like the one seen in the picture above.

Another point I'd make is, I'd far, far rather see the highway department or a city plant some sort of shade tree than plant some palm that looks bad untrimmed and just leave it there to grow in a wild manner. There are far too many places in Florida where the highway department or a city has chosen to plant sabals or whatever that never get trimmed and just end up looking mediocre at best anyway when a nice, good-looking shade tree could have been planted, which is a shame. I'm sure there's some sort of equivalent of the untrimmed sabals in Cali, Arizona, and other warmer areas. I am not a fan of the super skinny, tall palms with some super short frond either - those could be replaced with shade trees for all I care.

[ruskinPalms]

12 minutes ago, FlaPalmLover said:

Definitely a "false dilemma." Palm trees are quite often planted in places where a tree that provides shade wouldn't even make sense, for one thing. Businesses and private individuals should be free to plant whatever they want. If I had acreage, I would probably have a mix of both. At best, you might fit a crape myrtle in between a highway like the one seen in the picture above.

Another point I'd make is, I'd far, far rather see the highway department or a city plant some sort of shade tree than plant some palm that looks bad untrimmed and just leave it there to grow in a wild manner. There are far too many places in Florida where the highway department or a city has chosen to plant sabals or whatever that never get trimmed and just end up looking mediocre at best anyway when a nice, good-looking shade tree could have been planted, which is a shame. I'm sure there's some sort of equivalent of the untrimmed sabals in Cali, Arizona, and other warmer areas. I am not a fan of the super skinny, tall palms with some super short frond either - those could be replaced with shade trees for all I care.

You are right. They want to plant dicot shade trees in a concrete dystopia where they will either sulk and suffer or if they do well, they will tear up the concrete dystopia with their roots.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, ruskinPalms said:

You are right. They want to plant dicot shade trees in a concrete dystopia where they will either sulk and suffer or if they do well, they will tear up the concrete dystopia with their roots.

Noting something @flplantguy mentioned, I have to admit, of all the head scratcher city landscape trend - things i'd noted while in FL,  push for planting Crepe Myrtles everywhere ( or so it seemed )  was #1 on the list.. Yea, they work in limited space areas but, ..older specimens i'd see on the way to / from work in Sarasota over the course of a couple years looked thin-ish ..not quite as dense as those planted in say where i grew up in CA. that weren't chopped up every year / 2 years.

Though spectacular when flowering,  Mess-wise, i personally rate them second only to Bougainvillea on the " grit my teeth cleaning up after them " scale.  They also drop their leaves, ...or a good portion of them... which means anyone looking for something evergreen -even there- might not like the winter " nakedness "

Aside from smaller palm options like Pygmys, Coccothrinax / Thrinax / Leucothrinax, for small spaces, i was always surprised natives like Allspice / Bay Rum, Scarlet Geiger ..or the non-native yellow-flowered species, Guaiacum sanctum ...or officinale..,  Myrsine,  Fiddlewood,  Cinnacord,  ..and /or Marlberry  weren't a common sight for such limited space city / urban applications there ..at least from Tampa on south..

  If you've ever seen a slightly pampered Marlberry in ..or out.. of flower,  they're quite attractive and tropical looking.  ..Flowers have a great fragrance/ fruit is edible ( not sure i'd eat them though, lol ) ...and they're evergreen,  and won't destroy sidewalks ...that i have heard about anyway.  No need to mention how great brushing up against an Allspice or Bay Rum " bush " is.. 

i mean, ok, so you can't ( ..or may not want.. )  to plant a palm,  ...and a big tree in X desired spot is definitely a bad option..  Why would a Crepe Myrtle be the first choice for such an application?   Really should be the absolute last.  My opinion on that only..

[flplantguy]

There are ways to work around a lot of the issues presented by city living and shade trees, but they all add cost. Root barriers and permeable surfaces to start, but without the knowledge of a professional from the beginning the tree will not be as successful as one in a park setting, not would a neglected wild grown tree look as good as a cared for one.  We changed the environment with concrete and asphalt and want to be mindless when we plant. Then whine when it's expensive to fix the mistake (which many times would be avoided by hiring someone who knows what they are doing).  it's possible, just like so many things are- when the almighty dollar is not the main driver, or is the force mandating it.

[flplantguy]

One thing I noticed when I added plants to a shade tree list is the contingent of developers who complained I added plants that no one grows- NATIVE plants.  I hear the same from people now, or they are too expensive.  They just finished planting more black diamond crepe myrtles in the medians here, after the new list came out with tons of new smaller trees.  there seems to be no knowledge or care to try for more. It astounded me seeing the boring plant pallette here when there is so much you can do.  I'm hoping to change it, but almost feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle of more people than not that literally hate trees and want them all gone.  Articles like this at least get the discussion going so the facts can be revealed and changes hopefully made.

[Silas_Sancona]

7 minutes ago, flplantguy said:

One thing I noticed when I added plants to a shade tree list is the contingent of developers who complained I added plants that no one grows- NATIVE plants.  I hear the same from people now, or they are too expensive.  They just finished planting more black diamond crepe myrtles in the medians here, after the new list came out with tons of new smaller trees.  there seems to be no knowledge or care to try for more. It astounded me seeing the boring plant pallette here when there is so much you can do.  I'm hoping to change it, but almost feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle of more people than not that literally hate trees and want them all gone.  Articles like this at least get the discussion going so the facts can be revealed and changes hopefully made.

Someone i'd worked with at the nursery i'd worked for in Sarasota often referred to natives  and less common -but not overly exotic-  tropicals  as " kooky "  plants,  while rolling their eyes..   I'd shrug it off since i knew how easily accessible -and desirable- those same " weirdo " plants were.  Wouldn't be growing a few of them here if i thought they weren't worth further study / examination and trial.

..If you've been to any of the USF plant sales / Green Thumb / other such plant-related events, and hung out near any of the vendors who'd sell natives / ..or those less common tropical stuff,  you know what i mean.  It surprised me. 


I may be miss-reading what i've noticed lately,  but it seems the number of voices promoting natives has been growing a bit louder -than it was when i lived there last-  out there over the past 6-9 years.



Overall though, It's the same battle here, though there are a couple places south of me that are making some pretty bold progress -against-  that old / out dated thought process some people still clutch to so tightly.  There's even a group of individuals who regularly post bad tree trimming observations across Tucson all over social media.  

Add to that the influence from one particular Chicago - esque voice on social media inspiring a massive audience of new, emboldened plant geeks / environmental awareness  and  majority of the " old / miss-guided / informed ways / ways of doing things in the Hort. / Landscape worlds "  won't hold up much longer in a new, more  / informed world ahead. 

I myself might not be the most palm geeky -ist  amung -ust'   but i fully understand and appreciate their importance in -and out- of the landscape ..even if i won't grow some things myself.

  A palm-less world would be just as boring as one where nothing but Dicot or Coniferous trees existed.   

Still, i wish a succulent - leaved palm, covered leaf tip to trunk base in easily detachable, slightly toxin - tipped spines ( Think Teddybear Cholla ..only as a Palm ) ,  ...or one that had large, wildly colored, Orchid-like flowers on it when it flowers  existed though.     Maybe in another 50 -100 mil years?,   lol.

[flplantguy]

It is changing slowly, and this year seems to have kicked it into a higher gear.  Hopefully that continues too.  I think part of the native problem is most natural plants are not as flashy and showy as the ones we breed and sell, or they have some other trait people don't like they use as an excuse (sometimes). Others it's just ignorance of the possibilities.  The Internet may help change this as we get more connected, that's my hope.

[sonoranfans]

At providing shade there are many trees that will exceed palms compared one to one.  But these huge trees can cost a lot of money to trim and they are generally no native so they can outgrow their root systems.  I lived in laguna beach for 2 years and the eucalyptus trees they had planted were hazards and expensive to trim.  If the city reduced watering, big limbs would die off and threaten everything below.  They are much heavier than any palm limb, yeah way heavier than even royal leaves and crownshafts.  SO they came in with a bucket truck and trimmed all those branches that the tree decided to let go of due to low watering.  IN my area, even the native oaks get knocked down in big winds, huge trees that need regular trimming to prevent them from overgrowing due to too much sun.  In the oak forrest they dont grow so many limbs down low so they are naturally self trimming.  But out in the open yard they grow like giant brillo pads with far too many sticky limbsm unless you bring an arborist to trim them up every 3-4 years.  When small they are not so expensive but when big they can be very expensive to cut and haul.  Lastly when it comes to holding dirt I have an interesting situation in my back fence area.  There is a drainage easement that flows along the fence, oaks and elms over the fence every 15'(too close really) and my palms on my side of the fence: roystonea, archies, dypsis pembana, kentiopsis, chambeyronia etc and spaced closer than you can space oaks for sure.  But those little palm roots extend everywhere and trap soil incredibly efficiently unlike a dicot.  There is heavy construction clay under the fence to keep it in place but the soil errosion on my side of the fence is nil in 13 years where it is up to 2 foot lower on the other side of the fence in the heavier sloped areas down to the drainage pond.  Those dicots can hold soil anywhere as well as a palm.  When Ian hit many of those dicots tilted 15degrees or so.  Fortunately for me those trees tilted the other way from my house as the wind direction was left to right.  But what happens next time?  And yes trees fell on houses in the area, ALL dicots some scary big ones.  My palms had one dypsis pembana snap and one trunk on C. lutecens.  Otherwise leaves blew off.  IF you have to worry about storm damage(who in florid adoesnt?) or if you have to worry about soil errosion or loss in heavy rain, palms are the better choice.  I will say w ropbusta is not muc a a corwn for shade, there are plenty of others that have much bigger crowns.  Here is the "dicot tilt" over my back fence from cat 1 hurricane IAN.

 

 

[sonoranfans]

Im also going to call bull on natives too.  What zone is it a native of is more important than what state.  Live Oals dont crow well in wet rocky soil and their native environment is in huge clustered sandy/swampy forests where sun doesnt get into the lower tree so the tree self prunes the lower branches.  Sticking a live oak out in full sun by itself leads to a very non native structure of too many small branches like a dang brillo pad and then you can pay to have them trimmed, but no private yard seems to do that so they look very non native as stunted gnarly trees that have reached about 20-25' tall in 13 years.  Most of my palms self shed  and no leaf raking is needed.  I had a mediuk siuzed bamboo but it was a complete mess every year shedding culm sheathes and the oaks across the fence drop their leaves too.  Fortunately most of those leaves just blow the other way into the forest strip.  All these city planners have botched up many things, including planting many eucalyptus all along california coast, uggh.  Ya know the aussies call them "widow makers" for a reason and california planners planted them all over the pacific coast highway.  When you cut back water usage many big branches up to 18" thick needed to be "trimmed". or they will fall on traffic  So now they have new plans for other trees with unknown negative impacts.  In another 30 years they will change their philosophy again.

[flplantguy]

An urban environment radically changes the system the tree is in and no allowance is made. When they just stuff trees wherever we are calling it "green wasting" and it's a huge problem here. They are planted in the right of way with no consideration other than "they will look like the ones in savannah"🙄 yet they never do since it's not the same environment at all.  Here I advocate different trees on the coast vs inland due to multiple factors, but most people think the pallette of plants is the same no matter where they are in the area.  Yet we have wetlands that are saturated year round and sandhills that are the opposite within a few miles of each other (or less) and they have different rules and plants that grow there.  Drive down any major street and the landscaping and buffers are almost identical.  It's changing as we educate the developers, but the cost to the area has been high in terms of mistakes.  Queen palms neglected and now phoenix palms dying cost people but the developers don't have to worry after they collect the check. Once the building is done maybe who is left will fix it but the damage being done is insane.

[Southwesternsol]

On 10/2/2023 at 9:15 PM, flplantguy said:

It astounded me seeing the boring plant pallette here when there is so much you can do.

Ran across this thread on Google. Boring is such a perfect way to describe it. 90% of the landscaping in my town is Siberian elms and lawns (most of which aren't even actual turf grass, just various invasive weeds). The most exotic thing you'll see is an occasional Aspen or a Russian Sage. It's all very drab, and kind of aesthetically off given our desert location. One plant that surprises me how rare it is, is trunking Yuccas. Especially in colder areas where theyd be a perfect alternative to palms. 

[SeanK]

I wonder what was growing in the LA basin 200 years ago, given that natural annual rainfall in LA is 12 inches and in SF is 20 inches.

[ZPalms]

Mixing shade trees and palms would be the perfect blend. I can't imagine Miami and surrounding cities without coconuts and the many other palms, or the LA skyline and surrounding cities without Washingtonias, CIDP, and many others.

Edited January 16, 2024 by ZPalms

[NC_Palms]

2 hours ago, ZPalms said:

Mixing shade trees and palms would be the perfect blend. I can't imagine Miami and surrounding cities without coconuts and the many other palms, or the LA skyline and surrounding cities without Washingtonias, CIDP, and many others.

This is why I love the Carolinas, Georgia and north Florida. You have all the palms you could want and then theres our native trees mixed which gives it a nice southern feel imo

[ZPalms]

5 hours ago, NC_Palms said:

This is why I love the Carolinas, Georgia and north Florida. You have all the palms you could want and then theres our native trees mixed which gives it a nice southern feel imo

There is something fun about growing palms where they aren't so common. It gives you something to marvel at around the normal trees.