Pot planting

[MattyB]

Wheather you agree or not, this is a great article to read.  Makes me think.  What are your guys experiences with pot planting.  Notice the caveats about specific species and sizes this is done at.

Pot planting article

[Breadfruit Bill]

Matthew, your not growing that funny weed are you?  "Pot Planting" ???

[junglegalfla]

I saw this article last year & asked this exact question early on in my palm fascination. I currently have a spindle in a 10 gal el cheap-o black thin pot that was sunk in the ground last fall.

Based on it's upward growth & fattened trunk, I can only assume it blew out of it's pot by this summer without missing a beat.  I fertilize and water it just as I do the ones directly in the ground.

I sunk mine for the 'look' of being planted. At the time, I figured I'd be moving & could just pop it out of the ground & move on. Then, the market took a dump so here I am. At least the palm seems happy  

[Alan_Tampa]

I have used pot planting with some species with success.  Areca catechu and Salacca sp. seem to be busting the zone barrier.  Not sure if is related to being pot planted or not.

Alan

[bgl]

Matt,

This is an interesting concept, and I have personally discussed it with Don Tollefson. I should mention right away that I have never tried it myself, so my comments are simply based on what I see as common sense flaws in Don's conclusions. Here are two sentences from Don's article:

"Most growers fail to even recognize that traditional planting is traumatic to a palm. But the occurrence of trauma is clearly evidenced by the palms' response shortly after it is planted."

MY comment: this conclusion is NOT correct. There is no trauma involved in planting a palm if done correctly. What MAY be traumatic is if you take a palm that was grown in Hawaii in a cinder or cinder-soil medium and then plant it out in heavy clay in SoCal. Needless to say, it would be very traumatic for a palm to be moved from a very well draining medium to a medium like clay. That's the trauma, not the act of planting it out!

Further down in the article, Don says:

"In most climates, traditional planting limits the growable palms to Phoenix, washingtonia Butia and similar genera."

I don't know where he came up with that idea. I have to assume that when he says "In most climates" he's referring to places where palms grow. And, fact is, most palms grow in the tropics, and there are a whole bunch more than Phoenix, Washingtonia and Butia! And generally speaking, when he refers to "traditional planting", this is exactly the way it's done. Without any difficulties whatsoever.

The way I interpret this whole "pot planting" approach is that if you have a somewhat sensitive palm that was grown in a different location (HI) and in a different medium than what you have in your backyard (as is the case with palms from Rancho Soledad), then I can understand that it would make sense. But if you buy a palm that's been germinated and grown in SoCal in the same, or similar, medium that you're going to plant it it, I fail to see what the point is. And Don's example with the two Licualas just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. First of all, Licualas are often touchy with the soil when you plant them out (I have to be careful here at our place!!!), and secondly, you can't do a valid comparison with just TWO palms!! That's just plain silly. As you know, I have groups of palms of the same species, sometimes 25 or more of the same. And based on that experience, and the fact that these palms are all planted in more or less identical conditions, with identical environment, yet many of them are slower or faster than the average. In order to do anything of scientific value, you would need control groups of at least 10 palms in each control group in order to reach any valuable conclusion. For iinstance:

Control group 1: planted out the "traditional" way

Group 2: planted out in pots, as per Don

Group 3: planted out "traditionally" BUT in large holes with good drainage and with the same type of medium that they were accustomed to in the pots

Only THEN could you come up with some valid conclusions. Don, as far as I know,has done nothing of the sort.

Bo-Göran

[FRITO]

interesting idea, and has some merit.  But I agree with Bo's above statement.  It is more of a shock on the palnt that makes it sulk do to soil changes or root disturbance.

Bismarkia may be a good canidate to do a side by side test.

Also, Dose anyone else think the photos of the "sabal" in that article looks more like a Livistonia chinesis?

Luke

[BS Man about Palms]

Matty-

I read that article a while back. And while the "original" purveyors of that theory  were still proponents of that method, I have seen and talked to people that did as described with only so-so results.

It appears a lot of the problem has to do with your surrounding soil and the quality of the pot.  If you have heavy soil and a heavy duty pot, "ain't no bustin' gonna happen".  (Gary Levine and I saw a pretty ugly "choked" Ravena Rivularis...pot planted)

And as you know, I like the "box planting" method better.

I am a FIRM believer in the stongest of the bunch as Bo noted.

[_Keith]

Oh great. As a newbie to the forum, I read this after planting 4 palms this weekend, and a fifth just minutes before I read this.  And yes, I am planting them late.  Call me a risk taker and you will be correct.  I still have two (Chamaerops humilis ) to plant in the next few days.  So, unless someone talks me out of it, I will plant them using this method and we will see.   One last question, do I improve the soil around the pot, or just mulch the whole area and let 'er be.

[bgl]

Keith,

With Chamaerops, I don't know why you would bother to give them any special treatment. Tough palms used to tough environments. I'm sure you could plant them on New Year's Day and they'd be fine!

Bo-Göran

[BS Man about Palms]

Keith-wait for more posts.

[Alicehunter2000]

(keiththibodeaux @ Oct. 18 2007,21:22)

QUOTE

Oh great. As a newbie to the forum, I read this after planting 4 palms this weekend, and a fifth just minutes before I read this.  And yes, I am planting them late.  Call me a risk taker and you will be correct.  I still have two (Chamaerops humilis ) to plant in the next few days.  So, unless someone talks me out of it, I will plant them using this method and we will see.   One last question, do I improve the soil around the pot, or just mulch the whole area and let 'er be.

DON'T DO IT!

I pot planted a queen and it sat and sat and sat doing nothing...........waisted a whole growing season sitting in its stupid pot. I finally had to dig down cut as much of the pot away as I could and make alot of holes in areas I couldn't cut away..........it's never been happier.

In fact I think I heard it say "thank you" after I removed it's root "corsett".

Never again..........don't believe the hype.....just plant that thing in the ground, where nature intended it.

Not that I have a strong opinion on this practice  ???  It just didn't work for me.

[_Keith]

Planted them today, no pot.  Not that I believe one way or the other, but our soil here is so rich.  If winter does not kill it, it will be a weed that requires a chainsaw to remove it within 3 years.  That is my theory, and pretty much been true so far.

[Walter John]

I've experimented pot planting a double bangalow. Wrong palm, it slowed it down, I'm also trying Dypsis albofarinosa, the jury's still out, give me at least another season first.

[Tyrone]

I'm a believer in getting the roots down and as far into the surrounding soil as soon as possible. A pot surrounding all of the root system would totally work against this.

My two cents

Tyrone

[_Keith]

(bgl @ Oct. 18 2007,21:34)

QUOTE

Keith,

With Chamaerops, I don't know why you would bother to give them any special treatment. Tough palms used to tough environments. I'm sure you could plant them on New Year's Day and they'd be fine!

Bo-Göran

Good, they are going to need to be tough where I put them.  No microclimate whatsoever, tough compacted soils.  This is one of the toughest spots in my whole 3 acres.  They were nice superhealthy 3 gl plants put in this week.  We'll see what they can do :-).

[Surf Guy]

Back in June I asked the Forum about planting a 15 gal Bizzie like this because I was afraid to break th roots. Bo suggested that I take it out of the pot and plant it. So I took it out of the pot and planted it and I am glad I did. It seems to have kick started a little bit. It has been four months since I planted it and it has thrown four fronds and one more is well on the way! It did not grow like this in the pot. I will post my before and after pix on the one year anniversary this June. Thanks for the advice Bo.  Mike

[palmazon]

Unlike most other nursery stock, palms are unique - individual, seed grown plants. Until some moneybags enthusiast bankrolls a scientific survey, we'll have to content ourselves with these hit-or-miss, success and/or disaster testimonials regarding this method. Anyone who has left a container palm in contact with the ground undisturbed for a season or two will soon discover said plant's tenacity to survive (or will to anchor, if you insist). Describing his planting system, Craig Heron (whose Mission Viejo garden mirrors Ralph Velez' ) explained he spread some palms in containers around as a preliminary layout and forgot about them when he was called away to attend to other tasks. Later, he found they'd rooted in, so he let nature take its course. Seeing palms in habitat is always a great eye-opener for those who subscribe to the $10 hole for a $2 plant theory. There are costs and benefits for every procedure, however, it's difficult to determine the efficacy of the pot method without crops of same-species plants side by side in a given landscape. Lookie here - this Washingtonia appears to have sprouted a power pole...

[palmazon]

To boil it down, this article gets dredged up time and again without any meaningful conclusions.

[BS Man about Palms]

Yup.

[palmazon]

(BS, Man about Palms @ Oct. 19 2007,20:09)

QUOTE

Yup.

take it from a pot-planting pro...

[_Keith]

Along those lines, while I am new to palms, I am not new to gardening.  I have an extensive library of over 200 books, half of which are specific to my geography.  Some of these books are 50+ years old, and a few much older than that.  I can honestly say there has been nothing new in this field for 100 years other than a few new synthetic chemicals.  Organic gardening has come and gone and come and gone more than than a couple of times.  Same for growing exotic plants to one's zone.    The plus side we have today is unparalled availability and the negative an very strong "native plant only" crowd who feels that somehow man is not part of nature.  Let a bird crap a seed and it is OK.  Let man bring it in and horrible us.  But alas, even that battle is not new having taken place more than once in the past as well.  Wow, all of that philosophizing hurt.  I need another beer.

[PalmGuyWC]

The beauty of plastic pots is that a palm will usually slip right out without disturbing the roots. I usually have the hole prepared to the proper depth and put the palm in right away before the roots are exposed to the sun or have a chance to dry. Last year I planted a couple of Parajubaeas and it seemed like they speeded up growth almost immediately.

If a palm is growing in a different kind of soil medium in a pot, I will sometimes wash away some of the soil to expose part of the roots so that when the palm is planted it will have the native soil to grow into. Enough roots will not be disturbed so that the palm keeps growing.

I've never been big on digging up plams and transplanting them, as once they go in the ground, they stay there. I always give it carefull thought before I plant one and I try to visualize how big that palm will be in 20 years. I've heard pros and cons about the pot method, but I think I'll do it the old fashioned way.

Dick

[Moose]

Interesting old article that Matty found. Worth reading - don't think it will move me from my old school thinking.

Bo is spot on with, "if you know what your doing".

[sonoranfans]

In my sandy soil I use an adaptation of pot planting for species that don't like drying out in the root area(archrontos and some dyspsis) I cut the bottom out to let the roots free and slit the sides most of the way up. I then plant the palm in the "pot" and wait agrowing season to pull the pot sides out. I has worked great for me, no stalling and deep roots are encouraged. I would never do this with a bizzie or brahea, but I have done this with sabals, caryota mitis, 4 species of kings, dypsis pembana. Its expecially useful if you have sandy soil and a long dry season as we have on the west coast florida. It reduces the necessary frequency of watering a little too. If you don't cut the bottom out, it seems like a bad idea to me. You want root growth, as much as possible, and young palms need the deeper root growth. Roots near the surface will likely die back, and this version of pot planting will allow that to happen after deeper roots are established. Again I only see this as useful in sandy soil and in area where you can have seasonal droughts...

[quaman58]

It seems intuitive that a pot would retain more water & therefore be helpful for an establishing plant. But my experience is that it makes no discernable difference. My neighbor pot plants regularly in a flat, well irrigated area & the palms grow like crazy. But so do the non-potted ones a few feet away. The ones I pot plant in a fast draining area (hoping to allow them to have longer access to moisture) grow no better that the surrounding ones. Just my experience of course.

[Funkthulhu]

So, is the 6 year bump anything like the 7 year itch, Moose?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

There's a lot of pot planting in Santa Cruz, quite popular here.

[Geoff]

Not found it ever hurt anything 'robust' in my last garden, but wimpier palms sometimes seemed to stop at a certain point. Perhaps too small a pot. Now that I live in gopher land I am doing it again and so far have not regretted it.

[stygiana]

Palm pot planting to the extreme!

https://maps.google.es/maps?q=orgiva&hl=fr&ie=UTF8&ll=36.901763,-3.420141&spn=0.001474,0.00327&client=firefox-a&channel=s&hnear=%C3%93rgiva,+Granada,+Andaluc%C3%ADa&gl=es&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=36.901764,-3.420653&panoid=FppNFFkGDQ90JjHSNNTpBQ&cbp=12,159.48,,0,0

I lived there and those plantings were a good way to start the day with a big smile when I passed near by.

(Handsome region BTW, on the mainland at the Sierra Nevada's feet, the town is not that beautiful, but the scenery... )

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

There's a lot of pot planting in Santa Cruz, quite popular here.

I guess you have to be from Norcal to get the joke.

[Jim in Los Altos]

I tried this with several Howea. I had eight to plant from 3 gallon containers. Three were pot planted and five planted the conventional way. Howea are pretty slow so it took a few years of observance to know the results. Since they were all planted in similar situations in the shade with well draining soil it would be easy to distiguish growing results.

What I observed is that they all started off with typical growth but, after a few years, the conventionally planted palms were bigger and slightly more robust than the pot planted ones. A couple of the pot planted ones are actually fairly stunted despite plenty of water and fertile soil. It's impossible to get them out of the ground by tugging on the pots so they must be rooted into the surrounding soil but I can't imagine there being any benefit to them being "trapped" in their pots.

I pot planted a15 gal. Archontophoenix alexandae and a Syagrus romanzoffiana X coronada too several years ago and, although they are growing fine, they didn't start off particularly robust. They both sat nealy still at first and I contemplated removing them and getting them out of their pots but never did.

[DoomsDave]

It is an interesting concept. I once did an experiment with some juvenile Hyophorbe verschaffeltii, in liners. I had ten of them. Five were pulled (gently) from the liners and planted in bigger pots. The other five had the liners slit, after which they were planted liner and all. All were placed in near-full sun, and watered the same amount. All survived.

A year and a half later, the "liner-planted" plants were obviously nearly twice the size of the others.

That experiment needs to be repeated.

That said, I've seen pot planting fail disastrously, as in Bill Dickenson's infamous Majesty that isn't. Majestic.

[Mandrew968]

I think that Don is WAY OFF when he says a root-bound palm grows better than a palm that is not. It's called container-itis and I see a ton of palms, that are root-bound for too long, come down with this sickly affliction. Maybe for certain palms like a Joey, pot-planting is a good idea, but for the majority of palms, I would never think to do this.

[richnorm]

Pot planting seems to work for me, or at least does no harm, but I only use it on certain planting sensitive genera like Pritchardia and Dypsis or where the plant is so well rooted that pot removal becomes difficult. If the plant is not in a plastic planter bag I slit the sides on the pot but in reality roots make light work of an average plastic container.

[O'o Bar Master]

The pot planting method has never made sense to me so we've never tried it. It was interesting to hear that some people have used it with success.

However, in some ways we may be 'pot planting' without the pots. Our property, like many places on the Big Island, is covered with lava and incredibly dense blue rock. Often the blue rock is only a few inches below the surface. The holes that we find range in size from 1 to 20 gallon. (The latter often take a whole day to be removed.) Sadly, often the palm we put in a hole has nothing to do with landscape design and is chosen based on the size of the hole and the size of the pot.

So our plantings are often similar to planting a palm in a pot. Because I had not thought of that similarity before reading this thread so I can't really say whether I've seen any difference between the palms that are fortunate enough to be planted in a decent sized hole surrounded by soil and those that are crammed into a hole with only a smidgen of soil. However, I do know that other palm gardeners here have planted directly on blue rock with great success.

Jeff Marcus has been encouraging us to get our palms out of pots and into the ground ASAP, including those in small pots. This seems to indicate (and I do not purport to be expressing his opinion) that pot planting is not as good as soil planting.

On a related topic: Since we were advised early on to wait to plant our palms until they reached 5 gal size we’ve done a lot of repotting over the years. Each time we’ve used the ‘nurseryman’s mix’ sold by our one and only local soil distributer. On the advice of the young woman who took our orders, we used the same mix when we began planting them in the ground. Recently my husband Mike ran into the owner of the business who told him we should be using their soil mix instead of the nursery mix. (Duh!) We are wondering if the additional amount of lava chips in the nursery mix might have contributed to our problem with tilting palms. We’ve had a lot of problems with that and have tried several possible solutions without success. I would appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this.

Lee Tracy

[LilikoiLee]

Did it again!! Was too lazy to go upstairs to get my computer; used Mike's, and forgot to switch logins. The last post was mine.

While I'm here: Keith, I appreciated your experienced comments on gardening in general!

Lee

[_Keith]

Bump. Below is another link to the article Matt originally posted. Found looking up the pot in pot method and remembered it has been discussed on PT before.

http://www.raingardens.com/psst/articles/palmpot.htm

Another thread

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/34943-pot-planting-palms/

And another

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/20130-pot-planting/