Butia ID

[MobileBayGarden]

Hello everyone, 

I have a Butia question that I hope someone can help me with. So I’m located on the Alabama coast a few miles from Florida. Butias are very very prominent in this area having been a popular planting over the last century. I have read that these palms are most likely Butia odorata, and most fit the description. Besides variations in color from green to blue to silver, they all have very thick trunks and large crowns. The fruit is typically orange to yellow and the seeds are large and round. 

That being said, I have noticed another form that seems to share very similar characteristics. They have very slim trunks and a much smaller crown. The color seems to be the same blueish grey, but they are just physically different. I originally thought it must be environmental differences but  there are the two forms planted next to each other in the same bed. The last thing that really struck me as odd lately was the difference in the fruit. All the skinny Butias have very similar fruit with  more red coloration and the seeds seem to be smaller as well. Any ideas or am I just reading into this too much? The following pics are the form in question. 

left is from the slim form and right is from the silver robust form. Thanks for any insight and info. 
 

Philippe
 

 

[Scott W]

I've always wondered the same, as here in Jacksonville Fl one finds the same differences in various neighborhoods.

[Jesse PNW]

If I recall correctly @Chester B had read a document on the presence of catainensis DNA in many of the Butia in the SE.  I know several of us have observed the physical differences in the ones in the SE, as compared to the more robust and reaching forms present in the PNW.   I would like to rename them Butia robusta and Butia compacta.  Kidding. But the difference is appreciable. 

[SeanK]

Interesting, as B.catarinensis is a smaller Palm overall. Palmpedia says up to 3m height, damage starts at -8°C. But then says a z7b palm. Clearly a pure one is more limited to z8 than is B.odorata.

There are a lot of pretty jelly palms along the gulf coast.

[sonoranfans]

I typically first go to palmpedia  the smaller ones are catarinensis, the larger are more likely odorata.  https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Butia_catarinensis

 

[tim_brissy_13]

I don’t see B catarinensis in any of these. B catarinensis have elongated fruit and seed, quite easily distinguished from B odorata. I’d say these are all B odorata which are variable in terms of size and colour. 

[MobileBayGarden]

On 9/4/2023 at 5:49 PM, tim_brissy_13 said:

I don’t see B catarinensis in any of these. B catarinensis have elongated fruit and seed, quite easily distinguished from B odorata. I’d say these are all B odorata which are variable in terms of size and colour. 

Thank you for the reply, so the key determining factor is the seed shape and morphology is arbitrary because of so much variation within the cultivars? Are odorata seeds always spherical? Thank you

 

Philippe

[MobileBayGarden]

Hello, so I just wanted to add some new information and see if anyone had any thoughts. The seeds on the top in the below picture are from the thin trunked Butia with red fruit that I posted earlier and the right from the standard robust form with orange fruit. Would these morphology differences be any indication of it being a different species/hybridization or are they just maybe not viable. The fruit surrounding them was also very fibrous and much more difficult to remove. Thanks for your help.  

. 

[MobileBayGarden]

Sorry about that last pic, but I cold really use some help with these seeds if there are any Butia gurus out there. 😫

[Scott W]

The oblong ones I'd say definitely are not Odorata, could be Yatay or Catarensis based on available Palmpedia information.

 

[MobileBayGarden]

12 hours ago, Scott W said:

The oblong ones I'd say definitely are not Odorata, could be Yatay or Catarensis based on available Palmpedia information.

 

Thank you Scott, I had suspected Yatay from the pictures that I could find, but they are so small I wasn’t sure. I haven’t really been able to find a straight forward reference for Catarensis either. 
 

Philippe