Will compost make palms eventually get root rot

[Palmfarmer]

I came a cross some seminars by some guy that talked about how bad compost heavy substrates was for trees in containers and it would cause a host of problems and eventually root rot. Think the Name was Gary. 

He also said too much compost in the garden is bad when planting trees. 

As for pots I don't know if he is right. For planting in the ground I think it is fine, but maybe not idieal to backfill with pure compost due to the reason that the compost will be mixed in with the soil over time as well as the roots growing past the compost. 

[idontknowhatnametuse]

I put compost in 2 Acrocomias, 1 Coconut and 1 Attalea and they actually started growing very fast.

[Brandon39.5]

5 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

I came a cross some seminars by some guy that talked about how bad compost heavy substrates was for trees in containers and it would cause a host of problems and eventually root rot. Think the Name was Gary. 

He also said too much compost in the garden is bad when planting trees. 

As for pots I don't know if he is right. For planting in the ground I think it is fine, but maybe not idieal to backfill with pure compost due to the reason that the compost will be mixed in with the soil over time as well as the roots growing past the compost. 

It may be true, when I planted my syagrus romanzoffiana in the ground it was more a less 8ft with some trunk and I've made a really big hole compared to the pot. And I added full compost around the root ball, a lot of it, mixed it a bit with the native soil and now is doing fine, but it just made about 3 fronds in 2 years maybe it was transplant shock or too much compost I don't know.

[flplantguy]

It depends on the species too.  Not a palm but i put royal poinciana seedlings in too heavy of a compost type soil and it rained overnight.  Its now too dense and causing issues like you describe. Knowing the species is key, i had not used that soil before and wont again for that.

[PalmatierMeg]

I believe compost, if used, should be a minor add-in, not a major part of your potting mix. It tends to turn to sludge when wet, which is deadly to most palms. I don’t use it at all anymore because I mix my own potting mix and never use my alkaline calcareous sandy native dreck in any of my pots. If you go with compost, just be sure your mix drains really well by adding perlite, pumice, coarse sand, Turface, etc.

[Johnny Palmseed]

It’s really all about the mix and the actual ingredients including the soil composition. Every bag of compost sold in a garden center will be different than a compost pile that you create. And how long it was composted matters. Some “compost” sold is little more than ground up tree products that have had very little compost time. That could have benefits in a container that you would prefer to have good drainage but would be detrimental in the ground as the bacteria uses oxygen to break down those pieces and causes deficiencies in the plants. I tend to use a mix of soil and compost products in my yard but I don’t just pour it in a hole and plant. I actually do much more than most people would probably consider reasonable. Including my wife. My yard is covered with a fill that is 3-4’ thick plastered on top of the original soil which I have found buried deep under the fill while digging deep down. My yard “soil” is not native soil. It’s like what @PalmatierMeg describes-alkaline and calcareous and looks nothing like a normal sandy Florida yard. It’s basically sand, coquina, crushed limestone with some large boulders and construction debris/garbage. When I amend a bed/area, I dig out the current soil and use a strainer device that I made with a 1/4” hardware cloth (it’s actually metal). This leaves a sand and small shell/stone mix that I then mix with store bought products. These are also strained as they tend to contain debris such as stones, sticks and garbage. I mix it in a large wheelbarrow with a shovel to create a new soil which hopefully has better properties than the stuff I dug out. The resulting mix is a pleasant looking dark sandy soil which tends to have a slightly lower pH and is much easier to dig for future projects. 

[Palmfarmer]

14 minutes ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

It’s really all about the mix and the actual ingredients including the soil composition. Every bag of compost sold in a garden center will be different than a compost pile that you create. And how long it was composted matters. Some “compost” sold is little more than ground up tree products that have had very little compost time. That could have benefits in a container that you would prefer to have good drainage but would be detrimental in the ground as the bacteria uses oxygen to break down those pieces and causes deficiencies in the plants. I tend to use a mix of soil and compost products in my yard but I don’t just pour it in a hole and plant. I actually do much more than most people would probably consider reasonable. Including my wife. My yard is covered with a fill that is 3-4’ thick plastered on top of the original soil which I have found buried deep under the fill while digging deep down. My yard “soil” is not native soil. It’s like what @PalmatierMeg describes-alkaline and calcareous and looks nothing like a normal sandy Florida yard. It’s basically sand, coquina, crushed limestone with some large boulders and construction debris/garbage. When I amend a bed/area, I dig out the current soil and use a strainer device that I made with a 1/4” hardware cloth (it’s actually metal). This leaves a sand and small shell/stone mix that I then mix with store bought products. These are also strained as they tend to contain debris such as stones, sticks and garbage. I mix it in a large wheelbarrow with a shovel to create a new soil which hopefully has better properties than the stuff I dug out. The resulting mix is a pleasant looking dark sandy soil which tends to have a slightly lower pH and is much easier to dig for future projects. 

Good, I was mainly worried about my 2 Butias growing in decomposed wood in pots However they grow very fast. 

I used to backfill with bagged soil sometimes before. However I changed that. 

My new tecnique is similar to yours I will mix in 10-20% of compost in the native soil then backfill and topdress with pure compost and mulch. I also throw in some Bonemeal when planting. 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Palmfarmer

[Palmfarmer]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I believe compost, if used, should be a minor add-in, not a major part of your potting mix. It tends to turn to sludge when wet, which is deadly to most palms. I don’t use it at all anymore because I mix my own potting mix and never use my alkaline calcareous sandy native dreck in any of my pots. If you go with compost, just be sure your mix drains really well by adding perlite, pumice, coarse sand, Turface, etc.

My mix potting mix allways contain perlite and drains very well. 

[Tyrone]

In the ground yes, use compost and lots of it, in a pot no. In a pot the most important things is drainage. Compost can break down into a badly draining mix which is a problem with slow growing plants like palms. If you were growing fast growing vegetables in a pot a lot of compost is fine, as by the time the mix has broken down, you would have already harvested your vegetables. 

[PlantMorePalms]

I've watched some of Gary's videos and he says some interesting things (Gary's Best Gardening on Youtube--he's the owner of Laguna Hills Nursery). I think his point is that compost turns to sludge and consumers oxygen as it decomposes, which is especially bad in containers but also not great in the ground around roots. (He does say compost is good as a mulch for in ground plantings.) The potting mix he makes is something like sand, perlite, moss and charcoal. + slow release fertilizer. 

He also made a claim in one of his videos that recent studies have shown that frequent moderate watering results in bigger ,stronger root systems than less frequent deep waterings, and that the less frequent deep watering doesn't actually result in the plant sending its roots deeper in search of water, possibly because the saturated soil deeper down doesn't have enough oxygen in it for roots to be happy. I recently finished setting up a drip irrigation system so was curious to hear that, which is contrary to what a lot of irrigation literature says. Does anyone have any thoughts on that or experience trying both methods??

 

[Merlyn]

I think it really depends on your definition of "compost."  If you mean "composted manure" like Black Kow or other brands...probably not a good idea with most palms.  There are a few species that like it swampy and mucky (Licuala and others) but most will not want super heavy soil like that.  If you mean just "decomposed plant material" then it just depends on your mix.  For several years I've been using about 30% generic "topsoil" from the local big box stores.  The bags were 1cuft and usually fairly lightweight and made up of mostly random shredded bits of tree.  Adding 50% or so perlite or Turface MVP made a fairly loose mix, and potted palm and cycad seedlings grow well in it.  Recently the price has nearly doubled on the 1cuft bags (now well over $3) and they've changed to a heavy sandy mucky mix.  So I've started looking at the Kellogg "Raised Bed & Potting Mix" as a replacement.  I have also been adding some cypress mulch (doesn't decompose) and coco coir or chips (also don't decompose) and small pine bark nuggets to my mix.

As far as the "dry cycling" goes, many palms grow in consistently wet rainforests.  And a lot of others grow in moderately dry areas but only on riverbanks.  For example, Beccariophoenix Alfredii habitat photos show a lot of dry hilly grassy area nearby, but the big palms are typically found along streambeds.  For those palms in habitat there's no such thing as a dry cycle.  Of the 5 big ones in my yard, the happiest is about 6' downhill from a roof downspout, and clearly loves the extra water from our daily afternoon thunderstorms.  Obviously there are a lot of species that grow in open forests, grasslands and even deserts too.  So like with the soil, it may depend on the palm species.  Ones that are susceptible to root rot probably would do better with infrequent deep watering.  I have a drip system set up here with 0.5gph, 1gph or 2gph emitters on a pretty wide variety of ~320 palms in the ground.  I adjust the number of emitters and GPH on each palm based on the water needs of the particular species, the palm size/age, and the soil in that spot.  So a trunking Sylvestris gets 4x1gph emitters in a sunny, sandy area.  A 3' tall B. Alfredii gets a 1gph dripper, and a dry area palm like a Brahea gets a single 0.5gph dripper.  My drip system is only intended to be purely supplemental, mostly just needed in our hot drought times of May and October. 

[Mangosteen]

8 hours ago, PlantMorePalms said:

I've watched some of Gary's videos and he says some interesting things (Gary's Best Gardening on Youtube--he's the owner of Laguna Hills Nursery). I think his point is that compost turns to sludge and consumers oxygen as it decomposes, which is especially bad in containers but also not great in the ground around roots. (He does say compost is good as a mulch for in ground plantings.) The potting mix he makes is something like sand, perlite, moss and charcoal. + slow release fertilizer. 

He also made a claim in one of his videos that recent studies have shown that frequent moderate watering results in bigger ,stronger root systems than less frequent deep waterings, and that the less frequent deep watering doesn't actually result in the plant sending its roots deeper in search of water, possibly because the saturated soil deeper down doesn't have enough oxygen in it for roots to be happy. I recently finished setting up a drip irrigation system so was curious to hear that, which is contrary to what a lot of irrigation literature says. Does anyone have any thoughts on that or experience trying both methods??

 

I have to agree with Gary. How would a palm or any plant grow well in a hole full of ground up dead trees which is essentially what one finds in a store bought bag of "compost"? What do you think "forest products" are? Dig up a palm or any plant growing in its native habitat. Do you think you'll find any organic material under or around the root ball?

[Johnny Palmseed]

13 hours ago, Mangosteen said:

Do you think you'll find any organic material under or around the root ball?

Actually, yes I would. Although you might not see it with your eyes. Most forests are not maintained and landscaped by humans. Any debris from falling branches and leaves would remain on the ground and would decompose, eventually ending up in the soil. The idea of adding compost to soil is to add nutrients which can be extracted by plants. Many yard soils are poor and lacking in nutrients due to the fact that builders often often use fill dirt which can come from anywhere. These soils are not chosen for their nutrient content and usually require amending to grow plants well. The problem is that digging a hole and dumping in a bag of Black Kow is not a good way to do it. Most bagged products are relatively poor choices for amending soil. They typically contain a lot of extra junk which has no benefit to soil. When I screen a bag of topsoil/compost/landscape soil, I typically find that only about half the bag is good for amending directly into the soil. The other part is either garbage such as rocks or plastic that I throw away or “mulch like” stuff like chipped branches. I simply use these pieces as mulch and allow them to break down over time on the surface. It’s a labor intensive process but I feel like it gives me the desired result.

[Looking Glass]

I think it might depend on many factors…. The type of plant, the type of soil, and the size/maturity of the plant.   I’ve got terrible, sandy soil, so I’ve planted a lot of my palms with a lot of manure in the hole and tons of mulch on top.  Since drainage is extremely fast, and the rainy season flushes the ground quite a bit, it hasn’t hurt, and it seems to give them an immediate boost of growth after they go in.  

For palms that like to grow in dry alkaline sand, I do a lot less…. for Crotons, which like rich acidic soil, I plant them in almost pure, bagged, composed manure and peat in the hole.  

I had some Ravenea rivularis in pots, planted in manure, wood mulch, and garden soil and a little sand, and left them in standing water much of the time.  They outgrew their giant pots by the pool in a couple of years, and I finally had to get rid of them when they hit about 9 feet tall.   …but these can be found growing naturally, submerged in rivers, for parts of the year.  

I think you have to consider the disintegration factor too.  Big palms planted in a lot of organics might end up with big air spaces around the roots as the organics disintegrate, depending on your climate.  That wouldn’t be great.  For little palms, it probably less of a concern.  

In pots, I agree that drainage is king for most species though….  in the ground, it depends on the surrounding soil, and the plant.  

[Mangosteen]

12 hours ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

Actually, yes I would. Although you might not see it with your eyes. Most forests are not maintained and landscaped by humans. Any debris from falling branches and leaves would remain on the ground and would decompose, eventually ending up in the soil. The idea of adding compost to soil is to add nutrients which can be extracted by plants. Many yard soils are poor and lacking in nutrients due to the fact that builders often often use fill dirt which can come from anywhere. These soils are not chosen for their nutrient content and usually require amending to grow plants well. The problem is that digging a hole and dumping in a bag of Black Kow is not a good way to do it. Most bagged products are relatively poor choices for amending soil. They typically contain a lot of extra junk which has no benefit to soil. When I screen a bag of topsoil/compost/landscape soil, I typically find that only about half the bag is good for amending directly into the soil. The other part is either garbage such as rocks or plastic that I throw away or “mulch like” stuff like chipped branches. I simply use these pieces as mulch and allow them to break down over time on the surface. It’s a labor intensive process but I feel like it gives me the desired result.

In habitat, leaves and fronds fall on the surface of the ground. How would this organic material find its way deep underground where you would find a palm root ball? It wouldn't.  Soil micro organisms break down the surface organic material and make nutrients available to the roots.

Bagged mulch or compost contain very little in the way of nutrients. Ever see an NPK analysis of one of these bags? Ground up trees (forest products, the number one ingredient) contain next to nothing as far as nutrients go. A bag of Palm fertilizer is where one would find nutrients.

[Merlyn]

42 minutes ago, Mangosteen said:

In habitat, leaves and fronds fall on the surface of the ground. How would this organic material find its way deep underground where you would find a palm root ball? It wouldn't.  Soil micro organisms break down the surface organic material and make nutrients available to the roots.

Bagged mulch or compost contain very little in the way of nutrients. Ever see an NPK analysis of one of these bags? Ground up trees (forest products, the number one ingredient) contain next to nothing as far as nutrients go. A bag of Palm fertilizer is where one would find nutrients.

So soil micro organisms don't break down the contents of bagged mulch and compost and make it available to the palms?  That seems an odd suggestion.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Mangosteen said:

In habitat, leaves and fronds fall on the surface of the ground. How would this organic material find its way deep underground where you would find a palm root ball? It wouldn't.  Soil micro organisms break down the surface organic material and make nutrients available to the roots.

 

^^^ This^^^  100% 

Out in habitat scratching around stuff all the time.  99% of the " duff " that collects around plants through a season / year is....  ..At the surface.   Not down where the roots dig through the mineral  base  of a soil profile.  I really wish ecology / soil ecology was a mandatory part of high school biology..

Even in the tropics, ..Take the Amazon for example,  A relatively thin Organic layer sits atop a much thicker layer of pretty ugly Clay-ey  base soil.   Hence why when a section of forest is razed, and the organic portion of the soil is scraped / burnt off, it takes time and special effort to restore it back to ..the start of returning to healthy again.  Grasslands, and desert ecosystems are the same way..

With woody material, it has to be broken down by decomposers and soil Bacteria / Fungi ..First...  before any nutritive value it contains will become available for plants to use.  That, or if it is burnt down to Charcoal and Ash.  As awful as freshly burnt areas look after a major burn, that soil is often quite fertile ..an will support the regenerative process ..if it is allowed to ( ..and the post- fire weather cooperates ).





 

[mnorell]

13 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

^^^ This^^^  100% 

Out in habitat scratching around stuff all the time.  99% of the " duff " that collects around plants through a season / year is....  ..At the surface.   Not down where the roots dig through the mineral  base  of a soil profile.  I really wish ecology / soil ecology was a mandatory part of high school biology..

Even in the tropics, ..Take the Amazon for example,  A relatively thin Organic layer sits atop a much thicker layer of pretty ugly Clay-ey  base soil.   Hence why when a section of forest is razed, and the organic portion of the soil is scraped / burnt off, it takes time and special effort to restore it back to ..the start of returning to healthy again.  Grasslands, and desert ecosystems are the same way..

With woody material, it has to be broken down by decomposers and soil Bacteria / Fungi ..First...  before any nutritive value it contains will become available for plants to use.  That, or if it is burnt down to Charcoal and Ash.  As awful as freshly burnt areas look after a major burn, that soil is often quite fertile ..an will support the regenerative process ..if it is allowed to ( ..and the post- fire weather cooperates ).





 

I second all of that, Nathan...all of us as horticulturists, whether casual/amateur or professional, need to understand the complex systems involved in soil ecology and root-systems, mycorrhizal networks, etc. (all of this the least understood yet probably most important element of any plant's survival). To my mind, the most important thing in developing a substrate is encouraging the microfauna and the fungal/bacterial webs that make a system "whole." Unfortunately the use of chemical pesticides and herbicides has a decimating effect on this system, and people in general are very skittish or terrified of "bugs" that in actuality are vital to the breakdown of these generally unusable (unless from a nodulating species) leaves/twigs/flowers/fruit, in making the nutrients available to the root-zones. Cockroaches, earwigs, isopods (pill/sow bugs), millipedes, centipedes, crickets...all of these creepy-crawlies should be revered and not decimated by chemical assault. I have never used such chemicals and I have been able to transform basically "unusable" areas of the Florida Keys (solid oolitic limestone) and my plot of land here in the Sonoran desert (mostly granitic, coarse alluvial mineral materials) into rich, thriving substrate for an entire ecosystem of plants...with just a little "starter" and the rest coming from Mother Nature just "doing her thing."

Ultimately true compost is a good thing as it is the richest portion of the carbon cycle. And the way it works its way down to the roots is often through the movement of humic acid (and various other elements) into deeper soil through water-driven translocation. But geographic location dictates the way in which these materials can be used...in hot areas devoid of it, compost is a very rich resource and much of it can be used to enrich barren soils. In the desert the problem is that humidity is lacking, so unless the compost is kept in shade (or, preferably, buried) with regular watering, it will just sit there in a dessicated state like an Egyptian mummy. In the Florida Keys, I was able to order truckloads of chipped refuse from county landscape crews or private arborists, and the rain and heat and humidity, along with the work of so many fungi and insects (and the guano of the lizards and birds who ate them), would break it down into amazing black soil in about six months. But in cooler areas such as the Southern California coast (which would include Laguna Hills, where the above-mentioned fellow Gary is), there are unique issues that come into play since it is a generally very cool climate, often with heavy clay soils, in which compost breaks down slowly and the heaviness of soil has a major impact on the survival of many tropicals over the very long, chilly and often wet winters and springs. Aeration is very important there for this reason, and many plants, Plumeria being the most famous example, will just melt and rot over the course of a long, wet winter in too heavy a soil, so the choice and amendment of substrate is very important there. And one of the most important points is that most commercial compost or bark products will require a good dose of nitrogenous fertilizer when they are applied, to provide food for the quick breakdown in such a way that will not compete with the plants that are trying to establish.

And pertinent to your comment on biochar, and there are many valid perspectives on this but this is just my personal take on it, I have used a little bit of it here for the reasons you mention, but in general am against it...because I think the last thing we need right now is to accelerate the release of carbon into the atmosphere by way of fire.

[Silas_Sancona]

6 minutes ago, mnorell said:

I second all of that, Nathan. **..all of us as horticulturists, whether casual/amateur or professional, need to understand the complex systems involved in soil ecology and root-systems, mycorrhizal networks, etc. (all of this the least understood yet probably most important element of any plant's survival). To my mind, the most important thing in developing a substrate is encouraging the microfauna and the fungal/bacterial webs that make a system "whole." Unfortunately the use of chemical pesticides and herbicides has a decimating effect on this system, and people in general are very skittish or terrified of "bugs" that in actuality are vital to the breakdown of these generally unusable (unless from a nodulating species) leaves/twigs/flowers/fruit, in making the nutrients available to the root-zones. Cockroaches, earwigs, isopods (pill/sow bugs), millipedes, centipedes, crickets...all of these creepy-crawlies should be revered and not decimated by chemical assault. I have never used such chemicals and I have been able to transform basically "unusable" areas of the Florida Keys (solid oolitic limestone) and my plot of land here in the Sonoran desert (mostly granitic, coarse alluvial mineral materials) into rich, thriving substrate for an entire ecosystem of plants...with just a little "starter" and the rest coming from Mother Nature just "doing her thing."

Ultimately true compost is a good thing as it is the richest portion of the carbon cycle. And the way it works its way down to the roots is often through the movement of humic acid (and various other elements) into deeper soil through water-driven translocation. ** But geographic location dictates the way in which these materials can be used...in hot areas devoid of it, compost is a very rich resource and much of it can be used to enrich barren soils. In the desert the problem is that humidity is lacking, so unless the compost is kept in shade (or, preferably, buried) with regular watering, it will just sit there in a dessicated state like an Egyptian mummy. In the Florida Keys, I was able to order truckloads of chipped refuse from county landscape crews or private arborists, and the rain and heat and humidity, along with the work of so many fungi and insects (and the guano of the lizards and birds who ate them), would break it down into amazing black soil in about six months.** But in cooler areas such as the Southern California coast (which would include Laguna Hills, where the above-mentioned fellow Gary is), there are unique issues that come into play since it is a generally very cool climate, often with heavy clay soils, in which compost breaks down slowly and the heaviness of soil has a major impact on the survival of many tropicals over the very long, chilly and often wet winters and springs. Aeration is very important there for this reason, and many plants,** Plumeria being the most famous example, will just melt and rot over the course of a long, wet winter in too heavy a soil, so the choice and amendment of substrate is very important there. And one of the most important points is that most commercial compost or bark products will require a good dose of nitrogenous fertilizer when they are applied, to provide food for the quick breakdown in such a way that will not compete with the plants that are trying to establish.

And pertinent to your comment on biochar, and there are many valid perspectives on this but this is just my personal take on it, I have used a little bit of it here for the reasons you mention, but in general am against it...because I think the last thing we need right now is to accelerate the release of carbon into the atmosphere by way of fire.

 ** = Breaking this down a bit..  This will likely be long ..and a tad weedy- wandering..

** Best plant people i know and have met are more Botanist minded rather than horticulturist minded.. Consider myself more botanist than Horto- trained  Like someone i know in Tucson explained, ....and refers to quite frequently on their nursery's site/ social media page(s...),  Horticulture ..as most people have anchored themselves to it, has been extremely harmful, rather than helpful when it comes to plant knowledge / health, etc..   If i had a nursery, or taught, i'd be shaping future botinists, not more horticulturists, ..even if their career path is the nursery / landscape trades.


** When i'm out rummaging around in habitat,  there is plenty of " compost " laid on the soil below stuff ...except Sand Dunes perhaps..   Aside from certain ..very specific soil types, ..Gypsum barrens for example,  there really aren't any " barren " soils  ...There are plenty of areas where humans have removed native vegetation, and the cyanobacterial " crust ",  thus leaving now bare " Mineral " soil   ..The foundation upon which soil builds itself upon..  

...Even in areas like the Gypsum barrens i referenced, or highly saline " Alkali " balds,  there are many plants that will and do colonize those soil types, in an attempt to modify them towards an ideal growing environment for other plants..  As referenced to in the past, A freshly cut roadside won't stay bare for long.. Annuals quickly take up residence, followed by everything else over successive years. 


..** Contrary to what some seem stuck on believing when it comes to how stuff decomposes in the desert,  organics break down quite quickly  ..If they didn't i'd have had 3 or 4ft of accumulated Mesquite leaf " duff " below my old boy at the old house when we moved in.. House was left un ocupied for 2 years between when it was sold and we moved in..  Digging around that tree, there was plenty of it being worked into the soil ..with lots of microbes at work, and " higher "  decomposers fulfilling their job roles as well..

After i laid gravel around it ..and out front, when i'd dig holes to install things / ..or remove sun fried things, lol... I'd find plenty of the same organic " stuff " being pulled down through it. ..Enough so that i regularly had Mushrooms whenever it rained enough ..In the desert..

Here, when i cut the lawn, { with a weed wacker } i leave all of the cut grass, and all of the leaves i blow out of some of the beds on it.  Never applied fertilizer and it is always as green as can be.. and grows very fast.  ..and often has mushrooms popping up in the shadier spots.  Shade does help but even the back yard patch grows a t a decent clip, and is fairly green ..except for the spots where the Ex- Gopher killed it.


** As far as bugs are concerned ..As long as they aren't in the house ..or ..the more ..potentially dangerous... ones aren't hanging out where interactions between people, pets ..and those bugs.. can happen too easily,    To be brutally honest,  folks need to get over their ..often overly dramatic, disappointingly miss-guided fear of them, or them nibbling on leaves of their plants...   Nothing makes me laugh harder than videos of grown men and women whipped into a panic attack over a bug landing on them ..or the sight a frog, snake, lizard ...whatever... somewhere in a house.. Seriously, what's wrong with some people?..   BIG spiders? ok, ..that's a given,  but ..a Bee?  If sensitive to their stings??, Be  smart,  don't  freak.. 

As far as those insects that can cause trouble, learn how to deal with them naturally...   Dumping chemicals all over stuff doesn't solve the issue in the long run.. It will create even bigger problems -more often than correcting one.  The nursery i referenced earlier had a great facebook post regarding what pesticides do to the total environment ..complete w/ a picture of a dead Owl / Hawk..  Folks need to think about that more than a few ugly leaves..  For the most part, there is another issue going on that is attracting the " bad " bugs.. Figure that out ..first..



** How things decompose is no more unique of an issue in California than anywhere else..  All those nutrients get worked  into even the worst of clay soils.. 

If it were me,  planning something like this in an area with such a soil profile / climate like coastal CA,  i would outline the area i want to have my " tropical / rainforest-esque " garden section and grow a ton of annual natives / native bunch grasses ..and beg all my neighbors for every leaf they don't want making their yard look " hideous " to their weird neighbors in the HOA  ...and lay that out in the outlined area for 2 years... then knock on more doors for leaves / grass clippings ..etc..  Then plant my desired plants  ..and continue dumping leaves / growing / chop n droppin' annual stuff / bunch grasses while the palms / other stuff settle in.. 

**Not directed at any given person, but.. A bit of a reality check..

Anyone who say doing something like that would waste too much time   ..You- have- plenty-..  This .." Rabbit in Alice in Wonderland " I Gotta do it all ..right now ..Cuz my time to do anything  is  quickly runnin out " mentality  has gotta go..  Absolutely silly... to put it ...respectfully...    

If a good friend said this to me, my honest response might make them cry ...before they realize and value that honest answer.   Who do you have to " keep up "  with?? ..and why does that matter??

Do whatever i guess  but i'll take the grounded / paced out route toward my perfect landscape, no matter how long it takes, ..or if i'm even around ( physically ) to enjoy the eventual fruits of those endevors / labor.  Not a soul  on this planet i need ..nor want   to keep up with.  That's just dumb. 

Moving along  ..and lastly, ...


** W/ Plumeria,  Yes, this is true, ...or mostly true... ( Some cultivars  will tolerate that stuff  if not given Any  extra water leading up to ..or through... a wet winter ).. Really heavy / thick as potting clay soil = Ohh soo very Bad, 90-something % of the time...   That " barren " rocky,  and very low in organics " soil "??  Best darn thing you can grow them in. Look at Hawaii ..or Baja Sonora / Sinaloa. 

Think about where P. obtusa,  stenopetala,  natural rubra, and cubensis  grow .. ...In rocky, really well draining and light-in-organics soil, up on cliff ledges / in cracks of boulders, etc  ..and they often go MONTHS w/ out a drop of water  ..and survive..    That is how i will grow mine in the ground.  No babying,  ...No chemical fertilizers to gain some silly and  un - necessary edge ( ..and push them into exhausted decline sooner, rather than later.. ) no compost / barky- " stuff " / Peat Moss ( Awful )  added to the soil.   ..Just what nature dictates..

[sonoranfans]

As is often the case, best gardening practices depend on where you live and what that climate is.  Then you couple that to making sure the water cycle is consistent and does cycle then you can often get a good growth in conditions that differ from natural habitat.  Clay cycles slowly and adding compost into it can make it worse.  It can bring the risk of poor drainage that leads to an inconsistent water cycle.  If not enough oxygen gets into the soil the microbiome many plants depend on for nutrient uptake may die back and then the plant is stressed and natural defenses dropped, allowing roots to rot for some species.   Roots emit anti fungal chemistries but when stressed this can drop off alot.  In the tropics it rains often and is warm all year round so organic matter is digested really fast.  But the soil doesnt dry out due to the consistent moisture.  Some species take  continually wet roots better than others while some must dry out at depth to be healthy and happy.  This is because the plants genetics developed in that climate environment.  In florida with lots of sand  you need to add clay and organic matter but usually an annual top dressing of mulch will within 5 years penetrate into the soil column to 8" or so but I have not seen it go deeper in the sand as it is consumed by microbes over time.  Nature evolves in an adaptation of the water cycle and drought prone areas produce drought resistant plants while continually wet areas do not produce drought resistant plants.   I agree that for laguna hills ( I Iived near there for a year) lots a compost could be a problem as it has clay/rock base soil with a marine influenced climate that may at times be humid overnight which could disrupt the dry cycle or cause it to vary alot.   In florida, I have more recently  started augmenting top mulch with turface MVP(sintered clay) to allow for a more persistent moisture retention and cation exchange soil.  Horticulture is pretty diverse, I have found that best advice on palms is from your experienced local growers.  When I grew palms in arizona, it was very different from florida, like 180 degrees different, caly soils almost no rain.  I killed a bismarckia there by putting in too much organic materia and siting it right next to a frequently watered irrigation zojne for a rose garden, dumb idea.  I found that talking to local palm talkers in AZ was better information than florida or CA palmtalkers.   And you can further divide that into north and southern caliofornia and also to  coastal and inland desert CA.  This ""best soil mix thing" is strongly related to the different environments since the dry cycle is different in subtropical vs Mediterranean and then desert conditions.  

[Mangosteen]

20 hours ago, mnorell said:

I second all of that, Nathan...all of us as horticulturists, whether casual/amateur or professional, need to understand the complex systems involved in soil ecology and root-systems, mycorrhizal networks, etc. (all of this the least understood yet probably most important element of any plant's survival). To my mind, the most important thing in developing a substrate is encouraging the microfauna and the fungal/bacterial webs that make a system "whole." Unfortunately the use of chemical pesticides and herbicides has a decimating effect on this system, and people in general are very skittish or terrified of "bugs" that in actuality are vital to the breakdown of these generally unusable (unless from a nodulating species) leaves/twigs/flowers/fruit, in making the nutrients available to the root-zones. Cockroaches, earwigs, isopods (pill/sow bugs), millipedes, centipedes, crickets...all of these creepy-crawlies should be revered and not decimated by chemical assault. I have never used such chemicals and I have been able to transform basically "unusable" areas of the Florida Keys (solid oolitic limestone) and my plot of land here in the Sonoran desert (mostly granitic, coarse alluvial mineral materials) into rich, thriving substrate for an entire ecosystem of plants...with just a little "starter" and the rest coming from Mother Nature just "doing her thing."

Ultimately true compost is a good thing as it is the richest portion of the carbon cycle. And the way it works its way down to the roots is often through the movement of humic acid (and various other elements) into deeper soil through water-driven translocation. But geographic location dictates the way in which these materials can be used...in hot areas devoid of it, compost is a very rich resource and much of it can be used to enrich barren soils. In the desert the problem is that humidity is lacking, so unless the compost is kept in shade (or, preferably, buried) with regular watering, it will just sit there in a dessicated state like an Egyptian mummy. In the Florida Keys, I was able to order truckloads of chipped refuse from county landscape crews or private arborists, and the rain and heat and humidity, along with the work of so many fungi and insects (and the guano of the lizards and birds who ate them), would break it down into amazing black soil in about six months. But in cooler areas such as the Southern California coast (which would include Laguna Hills, where the above-mentioned fellow Gary is), there are unique issues that come into play since it is a generally very cool climate, often with heavy clay soils, in which compost breaks down slowly and the heaviness of soil has a major impact on the survival of many tropicals over the very long, chilly and often wet winters and springs. Aeration is very important there for this reason, and many plants, Plumeria being the most famous example, will just melt and rot over the course of a long, wet winter in too heavy a soil, so the choice and amendment of substrate is very important there. And one of the most important points is that most commercial compost or bark products will require a good dose of nitrogenous fertilizer when they are applied, to provide food for the quick breakdown in such a way that will not compete with the plants that are trying to establish.

And pertinent to your comment on biochar, and there are many valid perspectives on this but this is just my personal take on it, I have used a little bit of it here for the reasons you mention, but in general am against it...because I think the last thing we need right now is to accelerate the release of carbon into the atmosphere by way of fire.

I don't have a problem at all with the heavy clay soil here in southern California. I retains minerals like potassium and holds valuable water. I create drainage with sand or decomposed granite (both inorganic) and use them combined with the native clay soil as my back fill when planting. And never use organic material like mulch or compost in a planting hole as back fill.  I do use them as surface dressing on top of the soil.

My plumeria plants are planted in ground with heavy use of sand and never have a problem with our long, cool, sometimes wet winters. My Adeniums, which are even more sensitive to cool, wet conditions, are in pots, but also stay outside during the winter, but they are planted in pure sand. 

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, Mangosteen said:

I don't have a problem at all with the heavy clay soil here in southern California. I retains minerals like potassium and holds valuable water. I create drainage with sand or decomposed granite (both inorganic) and use them combined with the native clay soil as my back fill when planting. And never use organic material like mulch or compost in a planting hole as back fill.  I do use them as surface dressing on top of the soil.

My plumeria plants are planted in ground with heavy use of sand and never have a problem with our long, cool, sometimes wet winters. My Adeniums, which are even more sensitive to cool, wet conditions, are in pots, but also stay outside during the winter, but they are planted in pure sand. 

I've been really tempted to keep mine outside thru the winters here, but was concerned that -even planted in nothing but grit / Decomp. granite they might suffer damage. Your statement may just convince  me into leaving the less-er of important of the two i have outside this year ..At least under the front porch where they will get morning sun, but be more protected from excess rainfall / less cold exposure,  compared to the back porch which sees no sun through the coolest months, and can be kind of chilly on the coolest nights..