Growing only in peat or coco coir?

[Palmfarmer]

I heard someone do this. Is this completly fine to do given you feed with some fertilizer that has a broad spectrum of micros and macros? 

[ZPalms]

  On 6/25/2023 at 12:42 AM, Palmfarmer said:

I heard someone do this. Is this completly fine to do given you feed with some fertilizer that has a broad spectrum of micros and macros? 

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I assume its fine, I saw a guy on youtube who grows a joshua tree in straight coco coir and gives it fertilizer so it must be good

[PalmsandLiszt]

Coir is not at all good at binding nutrients. Putting something clay-based like LECA in the mix would greatly improve this, reducing the frequency you would need to feed. Nothing naturally grows in coir; pretty much its only quality is that it drains well.

[PalmatierMeg]

  On 6/25/2023 at 4:14 PM, PalmsandLiszt said:

Coir is not at all good at binding nutrients. Putting something clay-based like LECA in the mix would greatly improve this, reducing the frequency you would need to feed. Nothing naturally grows in coir; pretty much its only quality is that it drains well.

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Agree. I use coir to lighten and improve drainage in my potting mix. I use 1/3 coir along with a coarse garden soil and perlite. I no longer use peat moss in anything.

[Merlyn]

I have bought a couple of "bricks" of "coco coir," but haven't used them yet.  One confusing part is things being listed as "coco peat," which looks like very fine ground stuff, and the more fibrous mix.  @PalmatierMegare you using the fine ground "Coco Peat" looking stuff, like in the photo below?

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 6/25/2023 at 12:55 AM, ZPalms said:

I assume its fine, I saw a guy on youtube who grows a joshua tree in straight coco coir and gives it fertilizer so it must be good

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If you're basing how reliable plant info is solely off  a / several Youtube video(s),  ..That is not good,  at all... 
 
A:  Take a look at what kind of soil these grow in ..in Habitat.   That  is how they should be grown,  ex-situ, = in a garden...

B:  They also do not need extra fertilizer.  No yucca sp. does.  ..other than what nature provides..  Succulents, Cacti, Yucca ..etc  are not Annual bedding pants.  VERY different nutritional requirements. 

[PalmatierMeg]

  On 6/28/2023 at 4:30 PM, Merlyn said:

I have bought a couple of "bricks" of "coco coir," but haven't used them yet.  One confusing part is things being listed as "coco peat," which looks like very fine ground stuff, and the more fibrous mix.  @PalmatierMegare you using the fine ground "Coco Peat" looking stuff, like in the photo below?

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Coco peat comes closest. I buy it as "coco coir" in compressed 11 lb blocks then rehydrate it. I don't like the term "peat" as it reminds most people of peat moss, which is altogether different. I haven't used the other 3 products.

[ZPalms]

  On 6/28/2023 at 5:57 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

If you're basing how reliable plant info is solely off  a / several Youtube video(s),  ..That is not good,  at all... 
 
A:  Take a look at what kind of soil these grow in ..in Habitat.   That  is how they should be grown,  ex-situ, = in a garden...

B:  They also do not need extra fertilizer.  No yucca sp. does.  ..other than what nature provides..  Succulents, Cacti, Yucca ..etc  are not Annual bedding pants.  VERY different nutritional requirements. 

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Im talking about this dude, pretty cool channel

I think I just assumed they were growing in a pot 😂🤪

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by ZPalms

[PalmsandLiszt]

  On 6/28/2023 at 6:26 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

Coco peat comes closest. I buy it as "coco coir" in compressed 11 lb blocks then rehydrate it. I don't like the term "peat" as it reminds most people of peat moss, which is altogether different. I haven't used the other 3 products.

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The chips (or husk pieces) also come in compressed blocks and are fantastic for drainage. Also great for epiphytes like Platyceriums, etc. This is the one coco product I really like, although always in combination with other things.
The 'peat' seems to me inferior to real (moss) peat on every level, unless perhaps you're really trying to minimise acidity. The fibery stuff is used to line hanging baskets, but has little other utility so far as I'm aware.

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 6/29/2023 at 8:31 PM, PalmsandLiszt said:

The chips (or husk pieces) also come in compressed blocks and are fantastic for drainage. Also great for epiphytes like Platyceriums, etc. This is the one coco product I really like, although always in combination with other things.
The 'peat' seems to me inferior to real (moss) peat on every level, unless perhaps you're really trying to minimise acidity. The fibery stuff is used to line hanging baskets, but has little other utility so far as I'm aware.

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As long as the " Rinse a few times before using " advise is followed, after several years of using it, found it to be far superior ..and much more environmentally sustainable / acceptable than peat moss ..which dries out too fast, and becomes a major pain in the 🤬  to re wet  ..then turns to nasty, root smothering muck if it stays too wet, esp if combined w/ soil components that are limestone based..  Coconut husk ..in any of it's forms, also contains anti microbial compounds that can help keep harmful soil pathogen #'s low / in check.

If Peat Moss were to be banned tomorrow,  i'd celebrate.  Hang on, ..may need to start celebrating, lol... 

https://www.cooldavis.org/2022/09/28/sphagnum-and-peat-moss-will-be-banned-to-gardeners/

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-56598452

https://phys.org/news/2022-12-harvesting-peat-moss-contributes-climate.html


Awful, out dated  stuff.

[D. Morrowii]

I really like Coco coir. I have some Licuala grandis growing in 50/50 Coir and hydraton and they love it. I also use it as 25-30% of my regular homemade potting mix. I’ve sprouted and grown some seedlings in 100% coir and it worked very well. It drains quickly and doesn't hold on to a lot of water. What water it does absorb it holds onto longer than other stuff, like peat. At least thats my experience with it. I hear there can be a cation exchange issue with calcium and that buffering with calcium nitrate fixes it. I think this is related to the manufacturer not properly rinsing the material or something like that. I have not had this problem though. 

[PalmsandLiszt]

  On 6/29/2023 at 9:46 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

As long as the " Rinse a few times before using " advise is followed, after several years of using it, found it to be far superior ..and much more environmentally sustainable / acceptable than peat moss ..which dries out too fast, and becomes a major pain in the 🤬  to re wet  ..then turns to nasty, root smothering muck if it stays too wet, esp if combined w/ soil components that are limestone based..  Coconut husk ..in any of it's forms, also contains anti microbial compounds that can help keep harmful soil pathogen #'s low / in check.

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Interesting; perhaps not all moss peat is equal, because I have always found that it holds water more and better than coco peat. Fair point about re-wetting, though.

Regarding environmental impact, moss peat is naturally produced by an ecosystem that can be sustainably harvested and occurs locally to me. Damage to peat bogs due to horticultural extraction is also miniscule compared with destruction caused by agriculture and the like. Damage should be zero if it is extracted properly.
Coco products come from a monoculture and are shipped across thousands of miles of ocean from Sri Lanka or similar. No doubt the Sri Lankans are delighted that coco peat has this reputation for being eco-friendly, but I think it is highly questionable.

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 6/30/2023 at 7:37 PM, PalmsandLiszt said:

Interesting; perhaps not all moss peat is equal, because I have always found that it holds water more and better than coco peat. Fair point about re-wetting, though.

Regarding environmental impact, moss peat is naturally produced by an ecosystem that can be sustainably harvested and occurs locally to me. Damage to peat bogs due to horticultural extraction is also miniscule compared with destruction caused by agriculture and the like. Damage should be zero if it is extracted properly.
Coco products come from a monoculture and are shipped across thousands of miles of ocean from Sri Lanka or similar. No doubt the Sri Lankans are delighted that coco peat has this reputation for being eco-friendly, but I think it is highly questionable.

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I'll trust what the science says on what extraction of Peat moss often entails but to each their own to not recognize the obvious in a majority of cases impacts...  And yes, intensive monoculture AG is just as bad, though it is often easier to repair the damaged caused by that comparitively. Peat bogs take decades ..if not several hundreds / thousands of years to return to their natural / healthy state when degraded.

While not perfect, chopping up the husks of fruits that fall off of a tree 2, 3, or several times a year, is wayy different than destroying an entire ecosystem just to get at some muck to grow some pansies, esp. when there are numerous, far superior alternatives around..



As far as where the material for Coco Peat / chunks / whatever end product is sourced,  that's one thing that could change for sure..    Plenty  of places in Mexico,  the Caribbean, and Central America / N. S. America to source material from. Would love to see our next door neighbors' economies benefiting from this resource as well.

No absolute  need ( and pretty dumb ) to source U.S. bound product from S.E. Asia. 

[MSX]

  On 6/25/2023 at 4:14 PM, PalmsandLiszt said:

Coir is not at all good at binding nutrients. Putting something clay-based like LECA in the mix would greatly improve this, reducing the frequency you would need to feed. Nothing naturally grows in coir; pretty much its only quality is that it drains well.

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To bind nutrients I add extra chunky vermiculite in the coco husk mix. Sotols seem to love that and perform much better than in the perlite mix.

Edited July 1, 2023 by MSX

[Merlyn]

So here's a coco coir question....how do you effectively rinse it?  I have a couple of big bricks and put a few pounds into a big storage bin.  I filled it up with water and broke up the brick so it's now fully loose and is now like mucky coir/peat soup.  But to actually drain out the water and rinse out any salts, how do you strain out the water without making a gigantic mess?  I suppose I could put an old sheet (or maybe a chunk of window screen) over the top of the bin and use that as a filter, but I don't have any tight weave cheesecloth.  What's your favorite washing method?

[D. Morrowii]

  On 7/1/2023 at 8:02 PM, Merlyn said:

So here's a coco coir question....how do you effectively rinse it?  I have a couple of big bricks and put a few pounds into a big storage bin.  I filled it up with water and broke up the brick so it's now fully loose and is now like mucky coir/peat soup.  But to actually drain out the water and rinse out any salts, how do you strain out the water without making a gigantic mess?  I suppose I could put an old sheet (or maybe a chunk of window screen) over the top of the bin and use that as a filter, but I don't have any tight weave cheesecloth.  What's your favorite washing method?

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I think if you buy from regular sources ie HD or whatever there isn’t really a need to do any meticulous rinsing. At least thats what I’ve read. However, just in case after I make the coco soup I dump the whole thing, which should end up the consistency of oatmeal, right into a 15 gal nursery pot. I periodically rinse it with hose water and let it get rained on. Then I just work out of that as I need to. So far no noticeable problems. 

I was kind of wondering wouldn't the salts rinse out fairly quickly with regular watering anyway or is it more complicated than that? 

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 7/1/2023 at 8:02 PM, Merlyn said:

So here's a coco coir question....how do you effectively rinse it?  I have a couple of big bricks and put a few pounds into a big storage bin.  I filled it up with water and broke up the brick so it's now fully loose and is now like mucky coir/peat soup.  But to actually drain out the water and rinse out any salts, how do you strain out the water without making a gigantic mess?  I suppose I could put an old sheet (or maybe a chunk of window screen) over the top of the bin and use that as a filter, but I don't have any tight weave cheesecloth.  What's your favorite washing method?

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Fairly easily... I use regular ol' 5gal Lowes buckets w/ 8-10 1/4" " weep " holes drilled around the base of it. Then drop in whatever amount of Coco Peat i think i'll need atm and soak.. Breaking up any larger chunks after it has wet thoroughly, then drowning again while stirring w/ something.  Let it sit and drain and repeat at least 2 or 3x times before using.

  On 7/1/2023 at 8:21 PM, D. Morrowii said:

I think if you buy from regular sources ie HD or whatever there isn’t really a need to do any meticulous rinsing. At least thats what I’ve read. However, just in case after I make the coco soup I dump the whole thing, which should end up the consistency of oatmeal, right into a 15 gal nursery pot. I periodically rinse it with hose water and let it get rained on. Then I just work out of that as I need to. So far no noticeable problems. 

I was kind of wondering wouldn't the salts rinse out fairly quickly with regular watering anyway or is it more complicated than that? 

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The salt will rinse through as you water, but, if high enough of a concentration in the material, it can burn finer roots as it is leached out.  There? i'd imagine the leaching process would occur faster than it might here.

As far as where ever it is purchased from, i rinse it regardless, just to be more confident.

[Merlyn]

  On 7/1/2023 at 8:21 PM, D. Morrowii said:

I think if you buy from regular sources ie HD or whatever there isn’t really a need to do any meticulous rinsing. At least thats what I’ve read. However, just in case after I make the coco soup I dump the whole thing, which should end up the consistency of oatmeal, right into a 15 gal nursery pot. I periodically rinse it with hose water and let it get rained on. Then I just work out of that as I need to. So far no noticeable problems. 

I was kind of wondering wouldn't the salts rinse out fairly quickly with regular watering anyway or is it more complicated than that? 

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I'd read of people getting ridiculously high PPM readings after soaking some of the "bricks" in water.  They were seeing 500+ using a conventional TDS meter (actually a conductivity meter converted to ppm output) on the first wash.  I'd imagine that the salts would rinse out with regular watering, but I wouldn't want to put a bunch of seedlings straight into high salt content soil.

@Silas_Sancona that seems like it would work.  I also have a bin with a crack in the bottom...I'd imagine it would slowly leak out the water after a while.  If that doesn't work I do have a couple of random 5 gallon buckets and I can easily drill a couple of small holes in it.  I do have a bunch of 15 gallon pots, but most have 1" holes and I'd bet a bunch of coir would end up all over the ground.

[D. Morrowii]

Whoops I lied, its more of a memory lie than one on purpose though 🙂 

It looks like I’ve been dumping the pre soaked coir into a 25 gal. fabric bag! Which makes more sense. 

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 7/1/2023 at 8:41 PM, Merlyn said:

I'd read of people getting ridiculously high PPM readings after soaking some of the "bricks" in water.  They were seeing 500+ using a conventional TDS meter (actually a conductivity meter converted to ppm output) on the first wash.  I'd imagine that the salts would rinse out with regular watering, but I wouldn't want to put a bunch of seedlings straight into high salt content soil.

@Silas_Sancona that seems like it would work.  I also have a bin with a crack in the bottom...I'd imagine it would slowly leak out the water after a while.  If that doesn't work I do have a couple of random 5 gallon buckets and I can easily drill a couple of small holes in it.  I do have a bunch of 15 gallon pots, but most have 1" holes and I'd bet a bunch of coir would end up all over the ground.

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Yes.. any hole bigger than say 1/3rd or 1/4th and it will get through it..  Looking at them, Numbers are rubbed off of most of my drill bits, but pretty sure i used a 7/32MM bit to open the holes. 

[Merlyn]

The other option for less "peaty" stuff is "coco chips" that they sell for reptiles.  I might try that stuff, being a bit more chunky.  I found a 2 pack of 5kg compressed, supposedly equal to 32-36 gallons (4.3-4.8cuft) for $43 shipped.  That's not too different than bulk perlite from HD at $18 for 2cuft.

[Than]

I did grow stuff in pure coco coir but it was difficult to keep up with the deficiencies. My hibiscus looked anaemic. Nowadays I use 70% coco coir still, mainly due to 2 reasons: Peat is lethal for tropical plants in marginal climates in the winter and peat extraction is an ecological disaster I don't feel entitled to. The rest 30% is worm or goat manure, which makes plants grow really nice, lush, deep green leaves and pumice or seramis.

Edited July 3, 2023 by ego

[PalmatierMeg]

 This topic has inspired me to invest in a block of coco chips with an idea of mixing the chips with ground coco peat to, I hope, lighten and increase drainage of my potting mix for potted palms. A block of chips is a few $ more than a block of coco peat so I have to keep my budget in mind. I’m considering a ratio of 1/3 chips mixed with 2/3 coco peat. My mix would consist of:

1/3 loose, coarse potting soil (Kellogg brand at the moment)

1/3 coco coir/chips mixture

1/3 perlite

It would be great if in the future everyone reports results of tinkering with their potting mixes.

[peachy]

  On 7/3/2023 at 2:32 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

 This topic has inspired me to invest in a block of coco chips with an idea of mixing the chips with ground coco peat to, I hope, lighten and increase drainage of my potting mix for potted palms. A block of chips is a few $ more than a block of coco peat so I have to keep my budget in mind. I’m considering a ratio of 1/3 chips mixed with 2/3 coco peat. My mix would consist of:

1/3 loose, coarse potting soil (Kellogg brand at the moment)

1/3 coco coir/chips mixture

1/3 perlite

It would be great if in the future everyone reports results of tinkering with their potting mixes.

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Hi Meg,

           My new house just sat on mud and builders rubble so I spent the first year just amending the soil before planting anything. This got me to tinkering with my potted things too. I found that large gravel (the small stones not the crushed stuff) in the bottom of my pots has worked wonders for drainage. I gave up on peat moss as to source quality stuff is impossible and all that is available now comes from China and it's ghastly muck. I buy a 20 kilo bag of gravel from the garden centre for $10 so it doesn't break the budget either.

Peachy

[Merlyn]

@PalmatierMegI decided to try the Viagrow brand coco chips in my mix.  For a couple of years I've been using a mix that's roughly equal parts generic "topsoil" (shredded tree bits), perlite, Turface MVP, and adding some Sakrete Paver Base (crushed limestone gravel).  In theory the crushed limestone would counteract the natural acidity of the shredded and decomposing tree bits, but I have had issues with iron deficiencies in my potted plants too.  Since the majority of the plants in pots prefer acidic soils, I'm probably going to stop using that.  I'm also going to try out the Kellogg Raised Bed mix at $10 per 2cuft, because the generic "topsoil" has gone from $2 to $3.30 per 1cuft.  The generic stuff has also recently changed to mostly heavy sandy muck instead of the looser fibery mix.  If the Kellogg stuff is much better at $5 per cubic foot then it's a better choice.

To get the "chunkiness" in the pots I've started experimenting with small pine bark mulch nuggets (very cheap from a local nursery) and small cypress mulch.  The pine bark will disintegrate in a couple of years, but the cypress lasts forever and doesn't rot away.  I *think* that the coco chips will do the same function of adding chunkiness, aeration and some moisture retention.