Baby coconut project (9B)

[byuind]

Ok so here goes!

I grabbed two baby coco’s from the Orange Fun Factory today on lunch for 27 bucks each. I am going to plant them and try to have some long term success. I know it’s been tried, but not by me (I like to say this at work for my projects because it’s fun)

I live off the intercoastal waterway in St Augustine on Anastasia island so I am between to bodies of water which produce a micro climate that generally seems to mimic 10a. I have a tidal marsh behind me of which the highest part stays dry except during large weather events such as tropical storms and canes. There is a retaining wall built to keep the log level behind my house, which faces southwest and gets sun all year round for extended hours. That wall also retains heat in the winter as it absorbs the suns radiation.

my hypothesis is as follows:

 

1,) this area is relatively protected from radiational cold because of the close proximity to the earth and retaining wall. 
 

2.) it gets sun all year round which is supposedly what coco’s like (need clarification?)

3.) it will be irrigated by my drip system all year round so it will get the water it needs.

 

 

now for the questions! This area is a marsh from the intercostal so is that salt going to be a problem?

I know that these palms grow in very salty regions world wide so I would assume it would not stunt growth?

 

I’ve attached a photo of a Queen that’s been there in the marsh for a year and went through last years canes with no issue.

I will plant them about 2 feet from the retaining wall… will the heat in the summer be too much for the young ones?

what’s your professional opinions? 
 

 

[Jadd Correia]

Do it!

[byuind]

9 minutes ago, Jadd Correia said:

Do it!

Well obviously we are gonna get this done… just need to figure out the semantics  

[South Carolina palms]

I don’t see a problem, I zone push too here in Charleston. I have a king Alexander,Bismark and queens. All did ok during flash winter. But to answer your question I don’t think the coconut will have a problem being that close to the marsh. I mean look how close they’re to the ocean in south Florida. 

[kinzyjr]

@byuind Salt should not be an issue.  If there is a possibility of placing a hardy canopy tree to the north-northwest of the palm to allow winter sun to hit it from the south, that will give you the best results.  This prevents wind damage and frost damage in one fell swoop.  Irrigation in a marsh is probably not necessary.

Regardless of how you do it, good luck.

[flplantguy]

The only issue is you cannot fertize them if it is a wetland or within i think 20 feet of it unless you inject fertilize, which most people will recommend avoiding.  I dont know how they will do without potassium in that situation, but the one on the sand in st pete i hardly think gets any care at all outside of dead fronds removed (and they are somewhat naturalized further south).

[byuind]

41 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

@byuind Salt should not be an issue.  If there is a possibility of placing a hardy canopy tree to the north-northwest of the palm to allow winter sun to hit it from the south, that will give you the best results.  This prevents wind damage and frost damage in one fell swoop.  Irrigation in a marsh is probably not necessary.

Regardless of how you do it, good luck.

ok talk me through a couple things:

 

first: water in the marsh is salt water. Are you saying that fresh water isn't really necessary? The live oaks back in the marsh seem to be relatively stunted in growth which I assumed had to do with salt.

 

second: hard canopy tree deal - is that just for wind protection? winter wind seems to come out of the east (from the ocean) and the back of my house where the marsh is relativley protected. Its too dark to take a photo but about 35 feet to the north there are about 4 smaller live oak trees.

 

[kinzyjr]

53 minutes ago, byuind said:

first: water in the marsh is salt water. Are you saying that fresh water isn't really necessary? The live oaks back in the marsh seem to be relatively stunted in growth which I assumed had to do with salt.

Yes, they are fine with extreme coastal situations with salt water.  A coconut palm can float out in open ocean for months, land on a beach where few other things can grow and happily inhabit that environment.

55 minutes ago, byuind said:

second: hard canopy tree deal - is that just for wind protection? winter wind seems to come out of the east (from the ocean) and the back of my house where the marsh is relativley protected. Its too dark to take a photo but about 35 feet to the north there are about 4 smaller live oak trees.

The goal is frost protection and wind protection.  The canopy doesn't have to be live oak if there are alternatives that grow better closer to the coast.  Without frost protection, coconuts can end up with an inordinate amount of foliar damage or die at temperatures above freezing.  If your wind direction is different due to your unique location, you'll want to adjust your planting plan accordingly.

[NickJames]

5 hours ago, byuind said:

Ok so here goes!

I grabbed two baby coco’s from the Orange Fun Factory today on lunch for 27 bucks each. I am going to plant them and try to have some long term success. I know it’s been tried, but not by me (I like to say this at work for my projects because it’s fun)

I live off the intercoastal waterway in St Augustine on Anastasia island so I am between to bodies of water which produce a micro climate that generally seems to mimic 10a. I have a tidal marsh behind me of which the highest part stays dry except during large weather events such as tropical storms and canes. There is a retaining wall built to keep the log level behind my house, which faces southwest and gets sun all year round for extended hours. That wall also retains heat in the winter as it absorbs the suns radiation.

my hypothesis is as follows:

 

1,) this area is relatively protected from radiational cold because of the close proximity to the earth and retaining wall. 
 

2.) it gets sun all year round which is supposedly what coco’s like (need clarification?)

3.) it will be irrigated by my drip system all year round so it will get the water it needs.

 

 

now for the questions! This area is a marsh from the intercostal so is that salt going to be a problem?

I know that these palms grow in very salty regions world wide so I would assume it would not stunt growth?

 

I’ve attached a photo of a Queen that’s been there in the marsh for a year and went through last years canes with no issue.

I will plant them about 2 feet from the retaining wall… will the heat in the summer be too much for the young ones?

what’s your professional opinions? 
 

 

Oh, this is really cool and what a great experiment.

My ONLY concern would be, if might stay too wet during winter? Thoughts? A coconut wouldn’t like cold, wet soil. 

Other than that, the salt is fine…and you seem to be positioned in the most ideal microclimate. The full sun will help keep the soil as warm as possible. 
 

Is the pictured Serenoa naturally occurring or did you plant it?

Gorgeous surroundings you have!!

[Jimbean]

To be perfectly blunt, without protection those palms wouldn't make it past a 10%-20% colder than average winter in your area.  Good luck though. 

[byuind]

7 hours ago, NickJames said:

Oh, this is really cool and what a great experiment.

My ONLY concern would be, if might stay too wet during winter? Thoughts? A coconut wouldn’t like cold, wet soil. 

Other than that, the salt is fine…and you seem to be positioned in the most ideal microclimate. The full sun will help keep the soil as warm as possible. 
 

Is the pictured Serenoa naturally occurring or did you plant it?

Gorgeous surroundings you have!!

I actually planted that one. I’ve got a small backyard that is basically zero- scaped with pavers and palm beds filled with shell. I’ll probably post some photos on that in another thread someday. 
 

last year was supposedly one of the worst winters in a long time, and the water levels never got up to where the trees would be during that duration (probably not within 15 feet actually). Only time it got that high was during the tropical storms and hurricanes. 
 

directly above that area up on top of the retaining wall area behind the fence there is a Bismarck and R. Regia that are still juvenile and growing fast. They will provide some cover in the future. My house also acts as a giant wind block for the prevailing winds which is in theory good for this experiment.

I’m really going to be relying on that full sun exposure and retaining wall acting as a heat source 

[SeanK]

Try it. Prior to this winter, there were crownshaft palms in neighborhoods behind Historic Downtown. Also, there were a pair of screw pines at a residence on A1A on the way to Marineland.

[swolf]

Intense ‘advective’ freezes seem the long-term vulnerability to me — the winds come in from the northwest.  Does your house afford a protected planting site close to the house on the southeast side?  Maybe you can hedge your bets and plant one there.

[Philjax55]

I live on Anastasia as well, central area. Don’t like to be negative but this place can get pretty cold. Even if it doesn’t freeze you will see temps at night regularly in low 40s for many nights. Last winter was 2 nights in a row upper 20s. I lost a 6 ft spindle and same size foxtail. Even if you can gain a degree or 2 the continual cool night weather will put hate on a coconut.

[Bkue]

I have a couple going in Oviedo. Some dwarfs on sale at hd and a couple from seed from captiva. While hopeful, there is a reason none are to be found around me .

[PalmatierMeg]

Give your experiment a shot if you can afford to lose a few coconut palms. No worse than spending the same money on a meal at an upscale restaurant and not nearly as fattening. Report the results to us.

But I agree with @Jimbeanwithout supplemental heat/protection the prognosis likely is bleak.

[byuind]

I have some good temperature data to compare against and I know that this specific spot does afford protection, most especially when these specimens are young. 
I decided to leave them in larger pots this year to give them some time to grow a bit and I will transplant next spring.

 

I fully planned on giving them the Christmas light treatment each winter just as a possible precaution, and I am also working on some creative radiant heat ideas that I need to test out for controlled emission.

I know that Anastasia had a few coconuts that made it to halfway decent size back in the late 90s - early 2000s based on some local lore, which tells me that heat patterns can make this possible. The enemies will be infection and continual cold. Frost didn’t seem to be an issue at my house last year because of our constant prevailing winds so I am actually thinking of it as a plus.

 

we will see what happens - at $25 per plant I’ve spent more money on rounds of ammunition that I let lose in an hour at the range so I’m ok with it!

 

[Steve the palmreader]

The larger they are when you plant them the better the chance for survival . Young coconuts are real cold  sensitive.

[Merlyn]

I tried an experiment with cocos here too, and both failed miserably...but with no protection.  I had a green and a yellow from the Orange Fun Factory, they had 25% and 80% burn respectively from a Christmas 2020 28F frost and 2/4/21 30F heavy frost.  At the time my only temp sensor was in the colder backyard, and these were in the warmer front yard next to the driveway.  Based on later 5 zone datalogger comparisons, I'd guess they saw 30F and 32F with lots of frost.  The yellow one spear pulled and died almost immediately in the spring, the green one tried to grow a new spear and failed.  I didn't know about crown rot treatments with hydrogen peroxide, Daconil, Mancozeb, sulfur or copper at the time, so it's possible I could have saved them.

Anyway, in my limited experience if you get cold fronts into the upper 20s on a semi-yearly basis it's going to be really tough to keep one alive.  Frost is also a big killer, though onshore breezes might help with that.  But you could get a clear, still night at 35F and frost can form in literally 30 seconds.  I agree with the above advice regarding frost protection and NW wind protection.  Picking a spot with early AM sun will help too, as the palm will warm up quickly.

Personally I think you should try a Beccariophoenix Alfredii there.  I have no clue if they'll tolerate salt water, but they are 25F hardy and look like a coconut on steroids.  Genetically they are fairly close, so theoretically there's a chance that they do well in salt?  I'd definitely divert a few bucks from the plinking budget to the Alfredii budget.    I think there's a PT member in Orlando with some big 1g for sale.

[byuind]

Hey Merlyn,

 

great info! Yes i know that the "Alfred" as my wife calls it is an option, but this is more of a pride thing. Wanted to see if i could make it happen. I am looking at some supplemental heat methods to provide some growth support. I figure the target is to keep the temp above 45 degrees at night in order to have a fighting chance when young. 

 

What i dont know if how well they fare as they mature. Say I am able to get it to a 3-4 year point with protection - would they in theory be able to handle th eaverage temps with the occasional night below 40 degrees?

[Merlyn]

@palmsOrland @kinzyjr probably have the most knowledge about protecting Cocos in this area.  I'd guess that they are hardier with age, especially with a fairly full crown.  There's a couple of Cocos on the South side of Lake Monroe in the Sanford area.  They have been there for a long time with apparently no protection, just a great microclimate with nearby canopy and a big lake to moderate the temps.  The damage temperature might be around 35F or below, especially with frost.  That's only a guess on my part.

[kinzyjr]

6 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@palmsOrland @kinzyjr probably have the most knowledge about protecting Cocos in this area.  I'd guess that they are hardier with age, especially with a fairly full crown.  There's a couple of Cocos on the South side of Lake Monroe in the Sanford area.  They have been there for a long time with apparently no protection, just a great microclimate with nearby canopy and a big lake to moderate the temps.  The damage temperature might be around 35F or below, especially with frost.  That's only a guess on my part.

You hit the nail on the head on your guidance for @byuind.

Some things that can help you artificially modify the night time temperatures:

• C-9 Christmas Lights
• Ground heating cables
• Concrete hardscaping: this can be more effective if the concrete is darker in color or decorated with pavers that are dark colors.
• Propane heater
• an Enclosure
• Wrap and Tie with comforters or blankets

The canopy and windbreak recommendation in the posts above help quite a bit.  Heavily recommended.

Typically the damage starts around 37F-35F.  If there is frost, look for anything hit with it to turn brown eventually.  There is some difference between the various cultivars and once they start getting 4-6 feet of trunk.  Some of the Jamaican/Atlantic Talls, Panama Talls, and Maypans in particular seem to handle winters like the last one better.  My worst experiences were with the Golden Malayan Dwarf cultivar. 

The protection methods would be the same, but the climate below Lake Monroe on I-4 tends to have higher average lows in December, January, and February.  As @Philjax55 mentioned, north of Lake Monroe, locations tend to get more nights in the 40s, minus the barrier islands at Daytona Beach.  @swolf also mentioned advective freezes, which tend to reduce microclimate effects.

@ChristianStAug might know of a coconut or two that survived on Anastasia Island.  He knows the area a lot better than me.  The bulk of his freeze reports for December 2022 are here:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/76409-florida-christmas-freeze-2022/?do=findComment&comment=1094551

@Plantking165 Took some photos of the 2010 Survivor Cocos at Daytona Beach on the same thread.  They took about as much damage this year as they did in 2010:
https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/76409-florida-christmas-freeze-2022/?do=findComment&comment=1100129

@Lou-StAugFL is close by and might have some experiences in the area as well.

@Walt has used the blanket method in Lake Placid.  If you get a tall, you'll need an extension ladder and a closet full of blankets pretty quickly.

@pj_orlando_z9b does the right thing and heats his, even in one of Orlando's best microclimates.

@Jimbean and @PalmatierMeg were very honest.  You're in the same boat as the rest of us - counting years until the next big event hits and the cocos and other tropical palms head to the mulch pile.

[RedRabbit]

Nice house, you’ve got a great view on the marsh!

I’m not so sure about planting it on the edge of the marsh. If you get a freeze at high tide it might help, but at low tide you’re essentially planting it next to an empty field which is a recipe for disaster. I’ve studied the climate of St. Simons some and it seems like the ocean helps a lot, but the marshy western and northern sides get cold. You’re probably better off planting it on the south side of your house, as close to your house as possible.

[3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico]

Go for it.  I planted this coco in 2008 facing south in full sun.   My friend told me it would never grow here. -Seminole Fl. . 

 In  Seminole the summers are long, hot, oppressive, and mostly cloudy; the winters are short, cool, windy, and partly cloudy; and it is wet year round. Over the course of the year, the temperature typically varies from 55°F to 89°F and is rarely below 44°F or above 93°F.

15 years later and a few winters that were below 32 degrees it still produces coconuts.  The fronds have  had frost on them twice.   I'm three miles in land from the Gulf Of Mexico.  We very rarely get below 35 degrees.  It's about 20 feet tall now.  I water it constantly in the summer with a well sprinkler system.  It loves our hot and  humid nights.      No water  besides rainfall in winter months.  We average 50 inches of rain a year in Pinellas County. https://pinellas.wateratlas.usf.edu/rainfall/   I fertilize twice a year with palm fertilizer form Lowes.  Good luck and it will be a challenge in the colder months.  I've used all the tricks to keep it warm.  When young just flip a plastic  garbage can over the coco on cool nights and cover the can with a  blanket.    Remove when temp gets above 50 degrees.    I just hope my coco has been acclimated to handle 32 and below  in winters to come.   Time will tell.  

E5BD9ABD-B6C6-4670-88EE-B4DACE93175D.heic 6D60177A-0B6E-4E67-A181-27C358014077.heic

[RedRabbit]

21 minutes ago, 3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico said:

Go for it.  I planted this coco in 2008 facing south in full sun.   My friend told me it would never grow here. -Seminole Fl. . 

 In  Seminole the summers are long, hot, oppressive, and mostly cloudy; the winters are short, cool, windy, and partly cloudy; and it is wet year round. Over the course of the year, the temperature typically varies from 55°F to 89°F and is rarely below 44°F or above 93°F.

15 years later and a few winters that were below 32 degrees it still produces coconuts.  The fronds have  had frost on them twice.   I'm three miles in land from the Gulf Of Mexico.  We very rarely get below 35 degrees.  It's about 20 feet tall now.  I water it constantly in the summer with a well sprinkler system.  It loves our hot and  humid nights.      No water  besides rainfall in winter months.  We average 50 inches of rain a year in Pinellas County. https://pinellas.wateratlas.usf.edu/rainfall/   I fertilize twice a year with palm fertilizer form Lowes.  Good luck and it will be a challenge in the colder months.  I've used all the tricks to keep it warm.  When young just flip a plastic  garbage can over the coco on cool nights and cover the can with a  blanket.    Remove when temp gets above 50 degrees.    I just hope my coco has been acclimated to handle 32 and below  in winters to come.   Time will tell.  

E5BD9ABD-B6C6-4670-88EE-B4DACE93175D.heic 857.86 kB · 2 downloads 6D60177A-0B6E-4E67-A181-27C358014077.heic 1.81 MB · 1 download

How much protection did you give it in 2010? There are very few coconuts that old in inland Pinellas. Aside from that year, they’ve been a pretty solid bet. 

[3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico]

At two years old it was not that tall.  I used a blanket and an old spot light.  I still use the spot light to this day.  I just shine it on the trunk on cool nights.  Not sure if it is actually doing anything.  I can't wrap the canopy as it is to tall.    There are a few mature  coconuts over by Seminole High School and on Bryan Dairy Road. not sure if that is Largo or Pinellas Park.  I'm on the natural ridge in Pinellas.  Seminole Groves which was an old orange grove in the 1980's.  From the UF/IFAS   " In Pinellas County our soils tend to be neutral to slightly basic in pH with a very high percentage of sand."  

[byuind]

So just dream with me here for a minute:

 

the marsh area is has a south west exposure which means in the winter it gets the warm sun for about 6+ hours a day. It doesn’t get the morning sun which is beneficial for the early warm up period of the day, but it gets the benefit of a longer radiation exposure.

there is a dark grey retaining wall that will also soak up that radiation and provide supplemental heat for a couple hours after sunset as well, which to me is another net benefit.

the negative is that it will get some wind exposure in the event of a storm with the winds moving out of the north west which is far less often than the east given my proximity to the Atlantic Ocean.  The benefit to the wind exposure is that it will keep the frost from forming in most cases. The negative is a “drying” effect on the foliage.
 

I saw a single frost last year which did some damage to several plants that were not covered but that was during the worst part of the cold snap that we all experienced. I believe I can provide protection against frost for several years due to my monkey like ability to get up into the crowns and protect with lights and blankets. 
 

my understanding of cold damage was that it isn’t so much the actual temperature that does the hurt - it’s the duration of the cold. The average low for January (historical coldest month for Anastasia Island) is 46 degrees. This means that there are times when it drops into the 30s but it normal doesn’t last long. If these coconuts are supposed to be ok at 45 degrees plus, then I would surmise that I could provide some supplemental heat in creative ways that should keep it healthy and allow it to thrive. The summers here are definitely conducive to growth so that will be a plus for recovery.

with some regular preventative H2O2 and copper in the winter / spring months I am hoping that I can beat the odds and get a specimen that hardens up a bit.

 

who knows - they used to have coconuts in Jacksonville during the 90s according to some locals. And I can guarantee those didn’t get special treatment!

 

for 25 bucks it’s a fun project

 

 

[kinzyjr]

12 hours ago, byuind said:

for 25 bucks it’s a fun project

This is the key.  Enjoy the journey and hope it gives you some good years.