Understory garden in 9b Florida

[flplantguy]

Im looking for inspiration and advice for a space in my backyard.  It is mostly shaded with decent height of canopy but not very tall trees.  Most are not long lived, so i will add some longer lived oaks for canopy to fill in near the darlington oaks there now.  I will add a windbreak of some kind to the north, the house and largest oak is to the west, the east is native hardwood trees and palms, and the south is mostly open to the sun for now (greenhouse to come) with more trees nearby.  It has potential i feel but im not sure on types of palms and placement. I love prehistoric looking ones and crownshaft palms (talking to you Chrysalidocarpus!) and thornless palms but am open to all ideas.  The goal will be an enclosed private tropical sanctuary that feels like a rainforest.  Soil is sand with organic matter a few inches thick above. Water table is not that low so moist lower down but never wet or saturated in the sand there.  Well water is high quality with less than 250 ppm TDS and most of that is calcium.

For those interested the native trees on the parcel are sabal palms, red cedar, redbay, very few sand and longleaf pine, pignut hickory, sand live and laurel oak, black cherry, and a few soon to be gone brazilian peppers.  I also have a few encyclia tampensis and tillandsia utriculata im conserving.

I will only remove what i need to since canopy is king in CF and i know frosts are a concern.  It is almost on highway 19 just inland (less than 2 miles) in north pasco county, so almost in the cold pocket and subject to spill over before dawn on the coldest nights.  The site slopes to the front at 18 feet at lowest and continues up to 40 feet in the neighbors behind me to the east, then drops off again to 10 feet 200 yards behind, so the colder lows are close by in shady hills (the damage was a stark contrast this year).  Lows at christmas were 27 in the open and 28 to 30 under canopy. Jan 16 had frost and 30 in the open (just above freezing on the 15th with wind), but all other lows this winter were above 40 except 3 times at 39.  I imagine most winters have a more even mix than that.

I have two potted spindles and foxtails now that may go here or in the front hot dry bed depending on my observations this year and this post.  Another goal for the space is an endangered species sanctuary.  My degree is in horticulture (palms are new for me but orchids im an expert on) so feel free to throw hard science my way i live for it.  Thanks in advance!

[Bill H2DB]

    I assume that you have been to the   Nature Coast Botanical Garden and Nursery  in Spring Hill .  There's a lot of understory things to be seen there .

Fairly good labeling of the plants .

I'd recommend  Chamaedorea Microspadix  , and C.  Radicalis in your space for a palmy feel , with no worry regarding Frost and Freeze .

   C. Elegant can also survive in a protected space such as you want to create .

[kinzyjr]

@Bill H2DB's suggestion of Chamaedorea species is great.

The attached photo was a quick list I put together for an article published in The Palmateer. 

Anything listed 9b-1 or lower should be OK during most years, with species listed lower being safer.  For larger crownshaft palms that tend to do well in dappled light, anything Archontophoenix or Chambeyronia (including former Kentiopsis) should fit the bill, as should Satakentia liukiuensis.  For larger palms that take a while to exceed canopy, Beccariophoenix alfredii can handle dappled light.  South Florida natives should handle the area fairly well, especially while they are under cover (Thrinax radiata, Leucothrinax morrisii, Pseudophoenix sargentii, Acoelorraphe wrightii).  Hope this helps.

[flplantguy]

7 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

@Bill H2DB's suggestion of Chamaedorea species is great.

The attached photo was a quick list I put together for an article published in The Palmateer. 

Anything listed 9b-1 or lower should be OK during most years, with species listed lower being safer.  For larger crownshaft palms that tend to do well in dappled light, anything Archontophoenix or Chambeyronia (including former Kentiopsis) should fit the bill, as should Satakentia liukiuensis.  For larger palms that take a while to exceed canopy, Beccariophoenix alfredii can handle dappled light.  South Florida natives should handle the area fairly well, especially while they are under cover (Thrinax radiata, Leucothrinax morrisii, Pseudophoenix sargentii, Acoelorraphe wrightii).  Hope this helps.

This is awesome thank you both!  Im definately going to experiment but the tried and true hardy plants are a must as well.  The property is one acre so lots of space to spread out later too.

[RedRabbit]

I like what’s been mentioned so far. Kentia may also be worth a try there. They need shade in Florida, but you’ve got plenty to offer so they may do well for you and I understand they’re fairly hardy.

Edited April 27, 2023 by RedRabbit

[idontknowhatnametuse]

You could plant an Astrocaryum Mexicanum in a protected spot.

[flplantguy]

A kentia or two would be nice i like the form, and the area has somewhat cooler high temps than inland. I definately meet the minumum order amount for Floribunda Palms and then some!  Baby steps though lol

[flplantguy]

How well would a Dictospermum do?  I could place it on the edge of the canopy for winter sun and still get some frost protection, but would it do well with the chilly spells we get?  The fufuraceum type especially is something else in photos.  I do worry about the morality of having constantly injured and stressed plants as well but im good with zone pushing to a point. Stressing me while i protect in a bad year is one thing but putting the palm through consistent misery would be wrong to me too.

[ruskinPalms]

1 hour ago, flplantguy said:

How well would a Dictospermum do?  I could place it on the edge of the canopy for winter sun and still get some frost protection, but would it do well with the chilly spells we get?  The fufuraceum type especially is something else in photos.  I do worry about the morality of having constantly injured and stressed plants as well but im good with zone pushing to a point. Stressing me while i protect in a bad year is one thing but putting the palm through consistent misery would be wrong to me too.

I’m gonna say no. You need to experiment with some cheaper, easier to find, zone 9B/10A palms and get a feeling for how your property really is during the winter. You need to put some cheap “canaries” in the mine for a few years before you push your zone too much. You can look at maps all day, pontificate about proximity to water, elevation etc. but reality has a funny way of undoing any hypotheses you might have about your property. Plant foxtails or royals around there for a few years and see how they do. Maybe even Adonidia since it is cheap, easy to find and a tender canary. If Adonidia makes it a few years ok then proceed with your conquest of zone 10 palms.

[ruskinPalms]

And just for the record, you might be in one of the blessed places here in Florida that Chrysalidocarpus decipiens might make it. You seem to have great draining soil and cooler nights are a plus for this palm. 

[ruskinPalms]

And if you must push the expensive, unique and hard to source button, start with Kerriodoxa please 😁

[kinzyjr]

2 hours ago, flplantguy said:

How well would a Dictospermum do?  I could place it on the edge of the canopy for winter sun and still get some frost protection, but would it do well with the chilly spells we get?

That might be a a decent one to try, but get the conjugatum variety.  The others are closer to the 10a line vs conjugatum which tends to tolerate the 9b side of the line better.  We tend to get seeds at various times of the year, so if you can't find a plant you might be able to get seeds from one of the long surviving plants here.

[flplantguy]

14 minutes ago, ruskinPalms said:

And just for the record, you might be in one of the blessed places here in Florida that Chrysalidocarpus decipiens might make it. You seem to have great draining soil and cooler nights are a plus for this palm. 

I had the thought of trying one but i also believe in caution at least at first. After the wind last night any special plants will wait until the shield is grown at the least and continued observations of canaries like you suggest. Sanchezia is a great one for chill damage and is cheap along with the usual suspects.

[96720]

I have Dictospermum album growing in Phoenix couple of years it seems fine but slow!!

[Merlyn]

I gave up on Dictyosperma, after having 7 out of 7 killed in the 1-3' tall range with temps only reaching the upper 20s...with canopy!  I don't know if they were Conjugatum or Furfuraceum.  An Archontophoenix Alexandrae (2' tall) took minimal damage only about 20 feet from the d-e-d Dictyosperma.  For reference, my Christmas lows were about 26.5 in the backyard and 28ish in the front yard.  Canopy definitely helps, because some cycads were defoliated in the backyard at 26.5F but took no damage in the front yard at 28F with canopy.

I expect you'll have problems keeping Bottles and Spindles alive too, but you could look at Gaussia Princeps as a Bottle-ish replacement.   I've had good luck with Leucothrinax Morissii too, it is a lot tougher than Thrinax Radiata.

[flplantguy]

I will definately be searching for a Gaussia at some point.  It looks really cool at any age.  Im wondering if its possible to use the trees themselves to support a temporary greenhouse type protection setup but that sounds a bit excessive.  You can see all the mad scientist type setups on here and where they go well (or dont) but human intervention can only accomplish so much.  I found a tray of 10 small white bird of paradise to use as a backdrop and windbreak to start that i will plant soon. 

[flplantguy]

And it turns out i have an area in the front that clay was left behind and drains slower.  It may be small enough for a (very) few sun loving water hogs.  Possibly just enough room for a Ravenea too.  The way water runs off it all collects there🙄 before spilling over my driveway to the other soon to be planted "palm island."  It has sabals already and will be the area the water will still collect once its all landscaped and a drainage system under the drive is done.  It will take work and careful placement but theres another palm spot i can capitalize on.