Pheonix spp, I had no idea about the spikes!

[Lyn96]

OMG, there are 2 absolutely beautiful smallish fat older palms in this far northern California town that I've wondered about for years. I stopped to ask the shop owner near the them what they were, and he said he didn't know but he had to trim them from his fence on occasion and he was really afraid of them. Said he like them, but he really thought they might be lethal. I thought he was exaggerating and then I looked at them up close. The SPIKES! Yes, they could be lethal! I was thinking of getting some seeds of one of the species, but ah, I don't think so. My agaves will be enough, these are much much scarier. How on earth do people harvest dates without injuries? Every species of Phoenix I looked at seemed to have massive sharp stiff spikes! And on top of that at least some are toxic..

And no, no one has ever seen these 2 palms bear any fruit or seed.. Not that I would try to collect them for anyone, even myself..

[Silas_Sancona]

45 minutes ago, Lyn96 said:

OMG, there are 2 absolutely beautiful smallish fat older palms in this far northern California town that I've wondered about for years. I stopped to ask the shop owner near the them what they were, and he said he didn't know but he had to trim them from his fence on occasion and he was really afraid of them. Said he like them, but he really thought they might be lethal. I thought he was exaggerating and then I looked at them up close. The SPIKES! Yes, they could be lethal! I was thinking of getting some seeds of one of the species, but ah, I don't think so. My agaves will be enough, these are much much scarier. How on earth do people harvest dates without injuries? Every species of Phoenix I looked at seemed to have massive sharp stiff spikes! And on top of that at least some are toxic..

And no, no one has ever seen these 2 palms bear any fruit or seed.. Not that I would try to collect them for anyone, even myself..

 

45 minutes ago, Lyn96 said:

And on top of that at least some are toxic..

This is actually one of the biggies among palm- related miss-information out there..  It is true that the grooves in the stiff, modified leaflets we think of as "spines" do collect dust, bacteria  -which can enter the puncture wounds these can create when jammed into the skin-, the leaflets themselves do not manufacture any sort of toxic chemical that is then shed when they penetrate skin.

As far as the overall "Lethality" of Phoenix palms in general, after seeing what the 'spines' on Canary Islnd. Date Palms did to a co-worker years ago, only 2 sp. in this Genus are allowed in my yard.. Phx. rupicola ( "Spines" are generally softer/ small, and pliable ), and roebelenii ( ...because they're small and easy to maintain )

Someone else can deal w/ the rest of the "blood drawers" lol..  Growing up w/ plenty of them around in San Jose, personally never been overly impressed w/ them anyway.

[Lyn96]

9 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 

This is actually one of the biggies among palm- related miss-information out there..  It is true that the grooves in the stiff, modified leaflets we think of as "spines" do collect dust, bacteria  -which can enter the puncture wounds these can create when jammed into the skin-, the leaflets themselves do not manufacture any sort of toxic chemical that is then shed when they penetrate skin.

As far as the overall "Lethality" of Phoenix palms in general, after seeing what the 'spines' on Canary Islnd. Date Palms did to a co-worker years ago, only 2 sp. in this Genus are allowed in my yard.. Phx. rupicola ( "Spines" are generally softer/ small, and pliable ), and roebelenii ( ...because they're small and easy to maintain )

Someone else can deal w/ the rest of the "blood drawers" lol..  Growing up w/ plenty of them around in San Jose, personally never been overly impressed w/ them anyway.

Good to know. Did s/he fall into one?

I think these dwarf ones are really beautiful, but now I know why no one else has or is ever going to plant more in this small town.

[Silas_Sancona]

14 minutes ago, Lyn96 said:

Good to know. Did s/he fall into one?

I think these dwarf ones are really beautiful, but now I know why no one else has or is ever going to plant more in this small town.

We were actually trimming tall Canary specimens at a Yacht Club the Nursery i worked for at the time maintained..  While trimming, he had a frond come down on his hand/ arm/ shoulder and had at least one of the spines break off and then get pulled deeper under the skin.. 

A few days after he thought they got what pieces they found out, he had to undergo surgery to remove one that was embedded quite deep.  Didn't return to work after that.  I nearly got speared in the eye and jabbed in both hands a few times moving fronds onto the back of the truck that day ..Was wearing heavy gloves / eye protection as well. 

That was my " Hard pass " moment for ever growing them.  Roebelenii will try and stab too when you go to clean them up, but being such a small palm, it's "spines" are far easier to deal with compared to those on the bigger species.

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Silas_Sancona
edit

[Lyn96]

Ouch! My European fan palm has attacked and drawn blood, but nothing even close to that.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Lyn96

[Silas_Sancona]

6 minutes ago, Lyn96 said:

Ouch! My European fan palm has attacked and drawn blood, but nothing even close to that.

Ouch is putting it lightly, lol .. When my co worker talked about what they had to do  to get at the embedded spine(s), i think i skipped lunch that day..

On the other hand, can't count how many times i'd shred my hands on Washingtonia leafstalks trying to climb some shorter ones in my grandparent's yard as a kid, and yet i don't mind them ( ..But will only grow the native sp. myself )  lol.

 

[Lyn96]

11 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Ouch is putting it lightly, lol .. When my co worker talked about what they had to do  to get at the embedded spine(s), i think i skipped lunch that day..

On the other hand, can't count how many times i'd shred my hands on Washingtonia leafstalks trying to climb some shorter ones in my grandparent's yard as a kid, and yet i don't mind them ( ..But will only grow the native sp. myself )  lol.

 

Gawd... don't say all that without going into the gory details! What?

I suppose this thread could turn into a gore fest if others join in and aren't shy about negative feedback on palm spikes..  but hey, those spikes are certainly impressionable.

BTW, I got your seeds and will let you know much later when they germinate. I have to wait to sow as I'm about to kill myself or some seeds from hopping over seed trays, pots and heating pads brought inside. We have yet another windy storm coming in and I'm probably going to loose at least internet just like I did 5 minutes ago. At least my heat isn't reliant on electricity.

[mnorell]

I had a co-worker in Los Angeles who had gone on a trip up to Death Valley and somehow came into contact with a date frond at Furnace Creek, in the date grove there. She complained about being stabbed and it just kept getting worse, her leg turned bright red and became terribly swollen. She went back to the doctor and they X-rayed and found a four-inch stiletto spine deep in her flesh, and they had to operate to extract it and she had to go on major antibiotics. She kept that spine in a jar on her desk for a while! When I had a Phoenix sylvestris 'robusta' in Natchez, Mississippi, I used to worry endlessly that we (or our gardener) would put our eyes out on those spines, though we were all very careful and it eventually got above the danger zone. But P. theophrastii was the end for me, I had several there and I've never seen a more nasty, ugly, spiny monster in my life, a killer shrub! Ultimately all of them died from wet and cold (they are really not very hardy in a wet climate), and I was thrilled! I agree with Nathan that they should only be grown selectively...and around people who have been well educated/warned about their "eye-popping" potential; but I might add that I found P. loureiroi and P. acaulis to be low-danger (and very pretty and rather cold-hardy) as well.

Can't say I'm a fan of Washingtonia 'claws' though we're letting a volunteer 'filibusta' grow up in our pool area...I am just glad to have a fast-growing palm (amazing F1 hybrid vigor) in what was a desolate landscape before we bought the house...while waiting for the palms and other vegetation nearby to gain some size. And the shade it provides the surrounding plants right now is very nice indeed.

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, Lyn96 said:

OMG, there are 2 absolutely beautiful smallish fat older palms in this far northern California town that I've wondered about for years. I stopped to ask the shop owner near the them what they were, and he said he didn't know but he had to trim them from his fence on occasion and he was really afraid of them. Said he like them, but he really thought they might be lethal. I thought he was exaggerating and then I looked at them up close. The SPIKES! Yes, they could be lethal! I was thinking of getting some seeds of one of the species, but ah, I don't think so. My agaves will be enough, these are much much scarier. How on earth do people harvest dates without injuries? Every species of Phoenix I looked at seemed to have massive sharp stiff spikes! And on top of that at least some are toxic..

And no, no one has ever seen these 2 palms bear any fruit or seed.. Not that I would try to collect them for anyone, even myself..

You are quite right, the tips of those spikes are loaded with neurotoxin, which remains active in human body for decades. They may be responsible even for DNA mutations.

[Silas_Sancona]

5 minutes ago, Lyn96 said:

Gawd... don't say all that without going into the gory details! What?

I suppose this thread could turn into a gore fest if others join in and aren't shy about negative feedback on palm spikes..  but hey, those spikes are certainly impressionable.

BTW, I got your seeds and will let you know much later when they germinate. I have to wait to sow as I'm about to kill myself or some seeds from hopping over seed trays, pots and heating pads brought inside. We have yet another windy storm coming in and I'm probably going to loose at least internet just like I did 5 minutes ago. At least my heat isn't reliant on electricity.

You know, as bad as the spines on many Phoenix -or some other palms-  can be (  Astrocaryum, Trithrinax brasilliensis,  i'm glaring at both of you, haha )  Our native Mimosa, certain Acacias, and .. the nastiest of anything w/ spines, ...the Teddybear Cholla,  are worse.. esp. the Cholla ( technically, Cylindropuntia bigelovii ).. 

Getting tangled up in the Mimosa while hiking is the equivalent of finding one's self in the middle of a dozen cats fighting each other ..same idea w/ the Acacias, ..that Cactus?  those microscopically barbed spines assure even the most casual of encounter w/ a detached stem segment is a very painful experience. I kind of laughed a little watching videos of people trying to remove pieces of it, until one found it's way to my ankle.. Laughed as i tried using a stick to remove the piece that grabbed me, and because i was positioned near a Harvester Ant nest ( Subspecies we have here sting -painfully ).  Carry a thick-toothed, plastic Comb, Needle-nose pliers, and Reptile Feeding Tongs in my backpack, just in case, now..

There are other Cholla sp. with barbed spines, but none are as nasty as those on the Teddy Bears..   Anyhow..

Received the seeds you sent as well.. Probably get them planted this week.

[Silas_Sancona]

9 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

You are quite right, the tips of those spikes are loaded with neurotoxin, which remains active in human body for decades. They may be responsible even for DNA mutations.

I'm assuming you're joking,   cuz there is absolutely no credible proof of that.  Again, i mean credible, ..not just the whimsical thoughts of " some so-called expert, not an actual expert " when it comes to the subject.

[Looking Glass]

I have way too many roebelenii doubles and take many a deep puncture during the trims.  They burn and swell, but thus far, I have not had to procure a hook to replace my hand.  That being said, my best friend for the job is 36” loppers.   Perfect for Pygmy date-sized fronds.    Just enough reach.  Still, I get poked by these and Acanthophoenix rubra and Dekenia noblis, and sawed by Chamaerops and Copernicia with moderate annoyance as the major side effect.  I do fear big date palm leaf drop, however.    

[Phoenikakias]

11 minutes ago, Looking Glass said:

I have way too many roebelenii doubles and take many a deep puncture during the trims.  They burn and swell, but thus far, I have not had to procure a hook to replace my hand.  That being said, my best friend for the job is 36” loppers.   Perfect for Pygmy date-sized fronds.    Just enough reach.  Still, I get poked by these and Acanthophoenix rubra and Dekenia noblis, and sawed by Chamaerops and Copernicia with moderate annoyance as the major side effect.  I do fear big date palm leaf drop, however.    

Risks of mentioned leaf drop can be minimized, if the leaf is removed in two strokes, first distal half and then the rest.

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

I'm assuming you're joking,   cuz there is absolutely no credible proof of that.  Again, i mean credible, ..not just the whimsical thoughts of " some so-called expert, not an actual expert " when it comes to the subject.

Never underestimate a Phoenix.  Opthalmologists hold their punctures responsible for eye cancer.

[Darold Petty]

Lyn96,      Silas is correct, that there is no documented evidence concerning the toxicity of spines on Phoenix palms.  We assume that Phoenikakias' comments are satire.   However, through direct experience I can say that the puncture wounds seem to be much more painful than one would expect from just the wound itself.   The only somewhat credible conjecture that I have heard is that there is a bacterium or fungus that commonly resides on the spine surface, and that it is this agent which produces the more painful reaction. 

I use a type of glove favored by rose growers, with heavy leather gauntlets up to the elbows, even though the only spiny palms I grow are Phoenix roebelenii, and Chamaerops. 

[Phoenikakias]

36 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Lyn96,      Silas is correct, that there is no documented evidence concerning the toxicity of spines on Phoenix palms.  We assume that Phoenikakias' comments are satire.   However, through direct experience I can say that the puncture wounds seem to be much more painful than one would expect from just the wound itself.   The only somewhat credible conjecture that I have heard is that there is a bacterium or fungus that commonly resides on the spine surface, and that it is this agent which produces the more painful reaction. 

I use a type of glove favored by rose growers, with heavy leather gauntlets up to the elbows, even though the only spiny palms I grow are Phoenix roebelenii, and Chamaerops. 

I assume tanin cells on the tips enhace pain

[Darold Petty]

There are no tannins involved.  

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6507724_Plant_biological_warfare_Thorns_inject_pathogenic_bacteria_into_herbivores#pf3

Let's be clear, there is lots of information on the internet that has no references or citation.  My 3 minute Google search showed many links where it was stated that Phoenix spines are "poisonous".  Most of these are generated by gardening advice columns or tree service companies, even Wikipedia states this belief.  This is just hearsay.

  Perhaps we just have an issue of semantics, but the spine has no toxins within its own tissues, and the exaggerated level of pain is due the the surface microorganisms. 

[Silas_Sancona]

35 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

There are no tannins involved.  

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6507724_Plant_biological_warfare_Thorns_inject_pathogenic_bacteria_into_herbivores#pf3

Let's be clear, there is lots of information on the internet that has no references or citation.  My 3 minute Google search showed many links where it was stated that Phoenix spines are "poisonous".  Most of these are generated by gardening advice columns or tree service companies, even Wikipedia states this belief.  This is just hearsay.

  Perhaps we just have an issue of semantics, but the spine has no toxins within its own tissues, and the exaggerated level of pain is due the the surface microorganisms. 

Surface micros that accumulate and flourish on the surface of the spines,  and the fact that puncture wounds -on their own- can cause damage that is more painful than other type of laceration- type injuries.

Here' just one -of several- articles from the NIH / National Library of Medicine that discuss injury damage from Phoenix Palm spines / other plants with spines. Not one whiff of mention of a toxic substance being noted in the resultant reaction from spine penetration. More severe damage noted in other cases studied would be caused by bacteria, location of the wound / spine fragment itself.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10830599/

[Lyn96]

22 hours ago, mnorell said:

... I had several there and I've never seen a more nasty, ugly, spiny monster in my life, a killer shrub! Ultimately all of them died from wet and cold (they are really not very hardy in a wet climate), and I was thrilled!\

IDK, Micheal, I think they are really pretty and that prettiness is as much a revenge strategy as a survival strategy. They lure you closer so they can stab you.

[Lyn96]

15 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

Lyn96,      Silas is correct, that there is no documented evidence concerning the toxicity of spines on Phoenix palms.  We assume that Phoenikakias' comments are satire.   However, through direct experience I can say that the puncture wounds seem to be much more painful than one would expect from just the wound itself.   The only somewhat credible conjecture that I have heard is that there is a bacterium or fungus that commonly resides on the spine surface, and that it is this agent which produces the more painful reaction. 

I use a type of glove favored by rose growers, with heavy leather gauntlets up to the elbows, even though the only spiny palms I grow are Phoenix roebelenii, and Chamaerops. 

 Darold, I caught that but can't edit my post any longer.