Do all palms being planted need amending?

[ZPalms]

I thought about maybe planting some of my palms later today, but do I really need to amend the soil if I plant, or will that only work with specific palms depending on what their naturally used too (Washingtonia, Sabals)? My soil is composed of sand. If I don't amend, does that mean the palm would be less vigorous if grown directly in what I have, or does amending cause a beefier tree since it has stuff to work with at first?

having sandy soil and not very much money for soil all the time or transportation for said soil 😒

[amh]

I wouldn't worry too much about washingtonias or sabals. Both genera can grow in sandy areas. Spend your money on fertilizer and start composting.

[ZPalms]

22 minutes ago, amh said:

I wouldn't worry too much about washingtonias or sabals. Both genera can grow in sandy areas. Spend your money on fertilizer and start composting.

It just feels so wrong to plant without amendments, Since I never see anyone actually just plant directly and I'm always worried the sand won't let water soak into the ground and make it deep enough a lot of times the water seems to sit on the surface. I'll give it a try if I have too, I currently have one bag of soil so if I can stretch that just a bit 😂

I would compost but I live on the edge of the woods and I'd become very popular with the animals 😂

Edited March 23, 2023 by ZPalms

[amh]

3 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

Feels so wrong to plant without amendments, Since I never see anyone actually just plant directly and I'm always worried the sand won't let water soak into the ground and make it deep enough a lot of times the water seems to sit on the surface. I'll give it a try if I have too, I currently have one bag of soil so if I can stretch that just a bit 😂

I would compost but I live on the edge of the woods and I'd become very popular with the animals 😂

Get more input on the subject, but don't forget, they grow palms at the beach. 

Compost leaves, weeds and grass clipping, its better than nothing.

Edited March 23, 2023 by amh

[Little Tex]

5 hours ago, ZPalms said:

I would compost but I live on the edge of the woods and I'd become very popular with the animals 😂

lol use a trash can with a lid, and secure it. Then you wont be popular with the animals 😂

[sclarke523]

something to hold water would help IMHO

[Rivera]

7 hours ago, ZPalms said:

It just feels so wrong to plant without amendments, Since I never see anyone actually just plant directly and I'm always worried the sand won't let water soak into the ground and make it deep enough a lot of times the water seems to sit on the surface. I'll give it a try if I have too, I currently have one bag of soil so if I can stretch that just a bit 😂

I would compost but I live on the edge of the woods and I'd become very popular with the animals 😂

I'm a little confused. I'm on "loose" ocean dune sand and water penetrates almost instantly. Is your sand extremely fine and highly compacted or very crusty from dense mineral content?

Sounds like our sandy soil is different, but I don't amend heavily. I just mix in a little organic matter and a few handfuls of organic fertilizer (MicroLife 8-4-6, which is formed into pellets) into the native sand. If I didn't have any organic material on hand, I wouldn't sweat it.

I chop up much of my green waste for a natural mulch that covers a good amount of my yard and nourishes a nice mycorrhizal layer where the decomposing organic material transitions into the sand. 

I have no issues, other than that young plants with shallow roots need frequent water in the fast draining dune sand.

[PalmatierMeg]

I have alkaline, calcareous sandy soil. I don’t generally amend it except for mixing in the soil from pots when I plant. What you can and should do is mulch around the palms. Decomposing mulch will amend soil over time. I have improved my dreck soil over the years by  regular applications of shredded mulch. I agree that Sabals and Washies are not fussy about soil, so save money that would go for amendments for mulch and fertilizer. And composting leaves, grass clippings is a great idea for creating future amendments.

[Darold Petty]

For the first 25 years of my garden I never used organics, since I did not want to raise the soil elevation relative to the hardscape.  I had a trunked Lepidorrhachis with nearly mature fruit.  Don Hodel visited, and pronounced my palm 'the best he had seen ex situ'.  The palm died about 2 months after his visit from two common pathogenic  nematodes,  root knot and sheath nematodes.

  Reading about these pests revealed that they are always present, but usually kept in check by other microorganisms in healthy soil.  They become a problem in sandy soils, with heavy irrigation and an exclusive reliance on synthetic salt fertilizer.   This was the exact description of my garden.   I live about 1.5 miles inland from the ocean.  The native "soil" was just beach sand, so loose that one could plunge a shovel down with just arm strength and with NO nutrition. 

  Compost and organics are always the answer, they increase the tilth and water retention in sand, and also lighten and aerate clay.

  I use greensand (Bentonite) for K, feather meal for N, and crab/shrimp meal for nematode control.  This thread reminds me that I am overdue for this year's spring application !     

[Merlyn]

I'm on mostly sandy soil with some organics from years of oak leaves disintegrating.  When I started I was mixing in Black Kow because that's what my mom did when planting flowers in Ohio.  I quickly learned here that it was a bad idea for most palms.  These days I pretty much add generic "topsoil" aka shredded tree bits, but only on tropicals like white bird of paradise, bamboo, or stuff that really likes it rich.  For palms I mix some in for stuff like Licuala but not really any others.  The only exception is in areas with a lot of "builder's sand" that's fine and has zero nutrients.  Otherwise I just let the mulch slowly disintegrate over time.

[SeanK]

I always amend. 

As for composting, start with egg shells and coffee grounds. Most folks consume coffee and eggs every day.

[Palmfarmer]

Nothing fancy is needed. Ammend with some compost then mulch heavily. You can use syntetics while the soil improves over time by the mulch and compost. 

You want some cheap fertilizer that is good for palms some flower fertilizers are basicly the same I use one called Floria if I remember the name correctly. The ratios to be medium-high in Nitrogen low in phosphorus and highest in pottasium.

I have a side question is the reason for the Pottasium being the higheat in most palm fertilizers usually since they are made for a Florida market with naturally low potassium in the the sandy soil? 

Is a higher level of pottasium preferred for palms in other soils as well?  

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Palmfarmer

[Almisa]

On 3/23/2023 at 12:24 PM, Merlyn said:

I'm on mostly sandy soil with some organics from years of oak leaves disintegrating.  When I started I was mixing in Black Kow because that's what my mom did when planting flowers in Ohio.  I quickly learned here that it was a bad idea for most palms.  These days I pretty much add generic "topsoil" aka shredded tree bits, but only on tropicals like white bird of paradise, bamboo, or stuff that really likes it rich.  For palms I mix some in for stuff like Licuala but not really any others.  The only exception is in areas with a lot of "builder's sand" that's fine and has zero nutrients.  Otherwise I just let the mulch slowly disintegrate over time.

Ok Merlyn - Im late to the party on Black Kow.  Please give me the run down.  Im in the process of adding it in my palm beds (and my bamboo and Strelitzas, white and orange).  I am in a new development, so I have spent the last 3 years mixing in organic mulch and Black kow to get the soil nutrient levels up (in addition to ferts and etc)

[Merlyn]

7 minutes ago, Almisa said:

Ok Merlyn - Im late to the party on Black Kow.  Please give me the run down.  Im in the process of adding it in my palm beds (and my bamboo and Strelitzas, white and orange).  I am in a new development, so I have spent the last 3 years mixing in organic mulch and Black kow to get the soil nutrient levels up (in addition to ferts and etc)

Black Kow (and other composts) are great for tropicals and mixing in with super sandy soils, if they need more organics.  The downside on *some* palms is that many of them prefer fast draining soils.  Some mixed in is probably totally fine, just avoid too much.  It can make it a mucky mess if you get it too dense.  I use generic "topsoil" because it's 1/3 the price of Black Kow and probably just as effective at adding decomposing organics to the soil.  I'd rather spend my cash on new palms. 

The main reason compost gets a bad rap here is because people use it in pots.  It tends to turn to muck, and holds way too much water.  It's sort of like sand in pots, it is generally a bad idea except for some real water-loving species.  Even then it can be a prpblem for some palms and cycads due to lack of aeration.

[Almisa]

Thanks. I’ll be more mindful of my used. Makes total sense. And your explanation probably solved a problem i have with a few potted plants as well. Good stuff.

[NickJames]

It depends on the situation. 

My home now is myakka fine sand. Because it’s newer, any possible organics from the past vegetation present was largely cleared from the lot. The exception is a cluster canopy of laurel oaks and a turkey oak out front, which has better (but extremely acidic) soil from decades of oak leaves composting in place. This area is largely filled with native serenoa. 

when my pool was finished, I spread bags and bags of organic material in the beds around the pool. I did this to bring up the grade a bit (instead of building bringing in play sand) and then I used a rototiller to mix it in to the sand. I used black kow, lobster compost, mushroom compost, top soil, peat moss…lots of cool stuff.

The hurricanes passed by when everything was brand new…then we had a hard freeze on Christmas…

Everything seems to be happy though and I believe has been allowed to recover quicker and more easily due to the nutrients I added. 

[D. Morrowii]

I’m not sure what is best but from my limited experience over the last 2 years some palms grow fantastically in a pot but when I transfer them to the ground they start looking terrible. Within a 3-4 months they decline and some die. I know it could be light, watering differences, bugs, fungus etc but I feel like the problem is the sandy alkaline soil at least in some cases. I’m testing out amending soil and recording what I do. I’m using a little intuition and a lot of information I’ve gleamed of the many posts by experienced folks on this board. 

Today I planted a nice sized 2 gal. Clinostigma savoryanum. I used 1cf Coco coir, 1cf pine bark fines, 1cf turface, 1/2cf of crushed red lava rocks and a bag of compost. I dug a pit about 3’ in diameter and 3-4 feet deep. I mixed in about 5 shovels full of my home made compost with native and under cut the hole as much as I could. I then mixed my other components in a 27 gal container and then mixed that about 75-25 with native sandy silt. Again, I’m not sure if this is worth all the effort or extra cost (this hole cost about $26) but Its all in the fun of trying stuff put I guess. I’ve used this sort of amendment mix on the last 4 palms that I planted but the jury is still out as to whether the palm will do well or not. On the other hand some palms have done great just opening up a pot sized hole in the yard and dropping the palm right in. 

 

[kinzyjr]

9 minutes ago, D. Morrowii said:

I’m not sure what is best but from my limited experience over the last 2 years some palms grow fantastically in a pot but when I transfer them to the ground they start looking terrible. Within a 3-4 months they decline and some die.

There are a few plants that do this here in the yard that are supposed to be easy grows here.  The big ones that come to mind immediately are Ravenea rivularis (majesty palm) and papayas.  There are large specimens of both every direction from me, but here, forget it.

Percentage-wise though, my experience is the other way.  If I keep it in a pot longer than a year, it starts looking terrible.  As soon as I move it to the ground, it establishes and things are fine.

[Merlyn]

50 minutes ago, D. Morrowii said:

I’m not sure what is best but from my limited experience over the last 2 years some palms grow fantastically in a pot but when I transfer them to the ground they start looking terrible. Within a 3-4 months they decline and some die. I know it could be light, watering differences, bugs, fungus etc but I feel like the problem is the sandy alkaline soil at least in some cases. I’m testing out amending soil and recording what I do. I’m using a little intuition and a lot of information I’ve gleamed of the many posts by experienced folks on this board. 

Today I planted a nice sized 2 gal. Clinostigma savoryanum. I used 1cf Coco coir, 1cf pine bark fines, 1cf turface, 1/2cf of crushed red lava rocks and a bag of compost. I dug a pit about 3’ in diameter and 3-4 feet deep. I mixed in about 5 shovels full of my home made compost with native and under cut the hole as much as I could. I then mixed my other components in a 27 gal container and then mixed that about 75-25 with native sandy silt. Again, I’m not sure if this is worth all the effort or extra cost (this hole cost about $26) but Its all in the fun of trying stuff put I guess. I’ve used this sort of amendment mix on the last 4 palms that I planted but the jury is still out as to whether the palm will do well or not. On the other hand some palms have done great just opening up a pot sized hole in the yard and dropping the palm right in.

Yeah, alkaline soil could definitely be an issue.  I'm inland so my sandy soil is a bit acidic.  Also make sure that you rinse out your coco coir.  I've read of some brands with a HUGE amount of salt in there, despite claiming to be "triple washed" or some other silliness.  People were talking about reading 500ppm or more with a TDS meter after putting a "brick" of coir into a large storage bin and letting it soak for a couple of hours.  I have not tested any of it myself, so take the internet reports with....er...a grain of salt.  😛

You could also see if known alkaline-soil-loving palms do okay versus known acidic-soil-loving palms do okay there. 

[D. Morrowii]

51 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

There are a few plants that do this here in the yard that are supposed to be easy grows here.  The big ones that come to mind immediately are Ravenea rivularis (majesty palm) and papayas.  There are large specimens of both every direction from me, but here, forget it.

Percentage-wise though, my experience is the other way.  If I keep it in a pot longer than a year, it starts looking terrible.  As soon as I move it to the ground, it establishes and things are fine.

I guess this is why you have to take some of the advise you get with a grain of salt. Results may vary 🙂 There are enough variables to keep it interesting for us here in Florida I know that much! The soil here at my place must have been brought in when they built the place. There are 3-4 layers of different materials at 12,18,30 and 48 inches. Only the very top layer has any richness to at all. One good thing is that I’ve noticed that a lot more worms in the dirt when I’m digging near some of the plantings I’ve put in. 

[D. Morrowii]

3 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

Yeah, alkaline soil could definitely be an issue.  I'm inland so my sandy soil is a bit acidic.  Also make sure that you rinse out your coco coir.  I've read of some brands with a HUGE amount of salt in there, despite claiming to be "triple washed" or some other silliness.  People were talking about reading 500ppm or more with a TDS meter after putting a "brick" of coir into a large storage bin and letting it soak for a couple of hours.  I have not tested any of it myself, so take the internet reports with....er...a grain of salt.  😛

You could also see if known alkaline-soil-loving palms do okay versus known acidic-soil-loving palms do okay there. 

As far as the coir goes yes I’ve heard that and wondered but everything I’ve used coir on has done really well. I also heard about some sort of calcium lockout and that buffering with calcium is needed. So far no noticeable issues though. I usually break up the coir as directed then leave it in an open 27 gal container rinse it occasionally and let the rain fall on it. 

[Tyrone]

I know that many people can't do this, especially if they live in high density suburban areas, but I keep chickens, and all my garden waste, weeds, scraps, anything green goes in to the chickens. They scratch thru everything and turn that waste into fine soil full of worms. When I plant a new palm, I dig a big hole and put a wheelbarrow load of well rotted chicken soil in the hole with even more pelletised chicken manure and an organic rock style fertiliser with trace elements. I wish I had a time lapse camera, because in no time, if the plant was a bit pale and hungry, they green right up and take off. I'm on soil that retains water and nutrients so that probably helps, but if you are on sand it's probably even more necessary to do that, unless your growing a coconut in beach sand, but then they will love organics in the form of seaweed extract at the very least. Even palms that need sand (extreme drainage) I will still give them pelletised chicken manure and organic fertiliser with rock minerals at the very least, washed in with fish and seaweed emulsions. 

[amh]

13 hours ago, Tyrone said:

I know that many people can't do this, especially if they live in high density suburban areas, but I keep chickens, and all my garden waste, weeds, scraps, anything green goes in to the chickens. They scratch thru everything and turn that waste into fine soil full of worms. When I plant a new palm, I dig a big hole and put a wheelbarrow load of well rotted chicken soil in the hole with even more pelletised chicken manure and an organic rock style fertiliser with trace elements. I wish I had a time lapse camera, because in no time, if the plant was a bit pale and hungry, they green right up and take off. I'm on soil that retains water and nutrients so that probably helps, but if you are on sand it's probably even more necessary to do that, unless your growing a coconut in beach sand, but then they will love organics in the form of seaweed extract at the very least. Even palms that need sand (extreme drainage) I will still give them pelletised chicken manure and organic fertiliser with rock minerals at the very least, washed in with fish and seaweed emulsions. 

Backyard chickens are wonderful for improving soils and garden pest control; they even provide you with eggs. The chicken manure is great for composting and amending soils; I turn all of my junkmail, paper waste, old magazines/catalogs, and boxes into compost. My household trash is one or two small bags a week. Also, there is no threat of Grazon in chicken manure.

In the US, chickens are considered both pets and livestock, which allows people to keep them in the suburbs and even urban areas. Some municipalities limit the number of roosters, but this is generally about cockfighting.

Edited March 27, 2023 by amh

[D. Morrowii]

On 3/23/2023 at 3:49 AM, ZPalms said:

It just feels so wrong to plant without amendments, Since I never see anyone actually just plant directly and I'm always worried the sand won't let water soak into the ground and make it deep enough a lot of times the water seems to sit on the surface. I'll give it a try if I have too, I currently have one bag of soil so if I can stretch that just a bit 😂

I would compost but I live on the edge of the woods and I'd become very popular with the animals 😂

@ZPalmsI just noticed in the post you said your sand doesn't drain. I’m thinking there must be some other component in the soil that wont let it drain? I have a few different types of sand in the yard here and they range from coarse shelly sand to super fine sugar sand but they all drain readily. If drainage is the main concern and since the palms you want to plant don't require rich soil then you may want to try some mini pine bark or pine bark fines. The stuff is fairly inexpensive here in Fla at around $2-$3 per 2 cubic feet bag. It drains pretty well but holds a little moisture and takes awhile to break down. It wont hurt that it adds a little organic matter either I guess. Maybe it could help the palm get established and keep the roots from water logging. 

[ZPalms]

On 3/23/2023 at 11:55 AM, Rivera said:

I'm a little confused. I'm on "loose" ocean dune sand and water penetrates almost instantly. Is your sand extremely fine and highly compacted or very crusty from dense mineral content?

Sounds like our sandy soil is different, but I don't amend heavily. I just mix in a little organic matter and a few handfuls of organic fertilizer (MicroLife 8-4-6, which is formed into pellets) into the native sand. If I didn't have any organic material on hand, I wouldn't sweat it.

I chop up much of my green waste for a natural mulch that covers a good amount of my yard and nourishes a nice mycorrhizal layer where the decomposing organic material transitions into the sand. 

I have no issues, other than that young plants with shallow roots need frequent water in the fast draining dune sand.

 

On 3/27/2023 at 4:42 PM, D. Morrowii said:

@ZPalmsI just noticed in the post you said your sand doesn't drain. I’m thinking there must be some other component in the soil that wont let it drain? I have a few different types of sand in the yard here and they range from coarse shelly sand to super fine sugar sand but they all drain readily. If drainage is the main concern and since the palms you want to plant don't require rich soil then you may want to try some mini pine bark or pine bark fines. The stuff is fairly inexpensive here in Fla at around $2-$3 per 2 cubic feet bag. It drains pretty well but holds a little moisture and takes awhile to break down. It wont hurt that it adds a little organic matter either I guess. Maybe it could help the palm get established and keep the roots from water logging. 

I planted my musa basjoo 2 days ago but heres a picture of the mess I have, It seems to drain away but if I dig into the "soil" it seems to not made it deep, I amended the hole with a couple bags of sta green tree and shrub soil and I mixed some of the sand back into it but the majority of whats in this hole is the new soil. It just sits on the top of the ground not soaking in quick enough and I made sure to fill the hole with water before planting so the ground is nice and hydrated

I'm gonna get 2 more bags of soil soon to scrap away that top layer of sand because it's just too much! I hope my banana will be ok, I really don't understand the composition of my soil

In the photo below I'm holding what I dug from under what I watered, It's the sand mixed with what I mixed in

 

 

[D. Morrowii]

@ZPalms its kind of hard for me to tell whats preventing that water from draining from the pics. It almost looks like a sandy clay? When you pick up a moist handful and compress it in you hand it shouldn't stay together when you let go of it. Also I’d mix what ever you amend with very well. I’m not sure if the pics represent what you backfilled with but the soil doesn't look completely blended. 

[Rivera]

1 hour ago, D. Morrowii said:

hard for me to tell whats preventing that water from draining from the pics

This. 👆 Not sure what's going on.

I like to "scallop" the walls of the planting hole before backfilling it. The deep ribs encourage the roots to grow down and out into what is likely much more compacted native soil than the looser mix of a freshly planted hole. 

Many build a temporary berm around new plantings to encourage the water to pool and penetrate the small area that a young plant's roots occupy.

[ZPalms]

11 hours ago, D. Morrowii said:

@ZPalms its kind of hard for me to tell whats preventing that water from draining from the pics. It almost looks like a sandy clay? When you pick up a moist handful and compress it in you hand it shouldn't stay together when you let go of it. Also I’d mix what ever you amend with very well. I’m not sure if the pics represent what you backfilled with but the soil doesn't look completely blended. 

 

10 hours ago, Rivera said:

This. 👆 Not sure what's going on.

I like to "scallop" the walls of the planting hole before backfilling it. The deep ribs encourage the roots to grow down and out into what is likely much more compacted native soil than the looser mix of a freshly planted hole. 

Many build a temporary berm around new plantings to encourage the water to pool and penetrate the small area that a young plant's roots occupy.

I dug really deep and wide for it to spread out, the majority of what I added is under the sand this is basically the top layer which ill replace once I get more soil but when I squeeze the soil that isn't wet it just crumbles apart but of course the wet sand and stuff does clump together, hopefully once I remove the top layer with the new soil it might go down easier, It doesn't take that long though for the water to go away it doesnt sit for tooo long

I probably will do that and put a small barrier around it if I can to help the water go down because I really do wanna build the soil up from the top down and I did add organics like leaves and stuff when I dug the hole so maybe it will all work out in the end

maybe if I leave a hose to drip for a couple hours it will work its way down and hydrate the ground

Edited April 3, 2023 by ZPalms

[D Palm]

I am 50 miles inland in N. Florida. They dug 8 feet for my pool and it was all pure white sand. The coco fiber bricks use to be cheap, fluff them in a wheel barrel w/ water and you’re ready. I do that for water retention as it holds no nutritional value.

I have lived with drainage issues in the past. I save my old oyster shells and bury them. That helped.

[ZPalms]

Is direct planting chamaerops humilis ok in sandy soil?

[Merlyn]

1 hour ago, ZPalms said:

Is direct planting chamaerops humilis ok in sandy soil?

Yes, if it's fast draining sand it'll work well.  I have several trunking Humilis here, the best looking one is in full sun in close to pure sand.  They are pretty tolerant though, so only consistently wet areas should be avoided.

[Jack Lord]

Up here we have thick brown clay. My palm process goes more or less like this. Dig the traditional hole 2x as big as the root ball. Then I take a post hole digger and dig further at the bottom of the hole. Fill that second hole with pea gravel, thus creating a 'drain' of sorts. Then I make up a mixture of peat moss, small wood chips, compost, and a touch of the aforementioned clay. Seems to work.