CRUSHED STYROFOAM CHUNKS IN MY NEW PALM !!!!!!

[Breadfruit Bill]

I bought a palm recently from a SoFla vendor and it had a layer (about 2-3 inches) in the bottom of the pot (7g) about 1/2" to 1" chunks of crushed styrofoam...  Anyone know why?  Alot of the palms had this...  Is it something like, this stuff is cheap and we have it laying around so we will toss it in the bucket?  or is it for drainage and air circulation?  Maybe rudimentary air root pruning?  Anyone seen this practice and/or have and explanation?

[BS Man about Palms]

Had it in a few palms shipped to me (in the top) but never the bottom of the pot.

[MattyB]

I saw Jungle Music use the plastic peanuts shoved into the bottom of liners to plug the holes so potting soil dosen't pour out the other end when filling.  I thought it was a good idea and keep a box of them around to do the same.  I saw this done on D. decipiens specifically.  I don't know if this is done exclusively for plants that need superior drainage as youngsters, but the styrofoam is light, not condusive to rot, and drains well.  Similar to huge chunks of Perlite in my opinion.  Maybe Phil Bergman can enlighten us on this method.

[Breadfruit Bill]

Good tip with the styro peanuts Matt, thanks!  I have that problem with my liners too...

I wonder if I could stuff some styro in the bottom of my Areca vestiaria to help areate the roots?  

Vesties with wet feet

That in combination with putting the crates on concrete blocks to get them off the ground and get some air circulating...

Hmmmm....

[palmmermaid]

Just make sure it is styrofoam and not the environmentally friendly - as in dissolving - peanuts!  I think they are made from rice hulls.

[metalfan]

I use this all the time in the bottom of pots AND mixed into the soil for aeration of plants that particularly need really excellent drainage. Orchid growers use them a lot too. ANother excellent thing to use is wine corks

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Do NOT use a layer of styrofoam at the bottom of your pots to get better draining.  Potting soil should be uniform throughout the pot.  If you put something with greater air space (styrofoam, gravel etc.) under something with less air space (potting soil) you will create what is called a (miniature) perched water table.  The regular potting soil will become completely saturated BEFORE it starts to drip through to the styrofoam.

If you use it for plugging holes OK, but for taking up space or just making the pot lighter, it is better to mix it in with the soil.

Jerry

[chris.oz]

(Jerry@TreeZoo @ Sep. 26 2007,19:37)

QUOTE

Do NOT use a layer of styrofoam at the bottom of your pots to get better draining.  Potting soil should be uniform throughout the pot.  If you put something with greater air space (styrofoam, gravel etc.) under something with less air space (potting soil) you will create what is called a (miniature) perched water table.  The regular potting soil will become completely saturated BEFORE it starts to drip through to the styrofoam.

If you use it for plugging holes OK, but for taking up space or just making the pot lighter, it is better to mix it in with the soil.

Jerry

Thanks for that info Jerry.

[metalfan]

That's never happened to me personally, Jerry, and I have been using it for YEARS. The roots of the plants will eventually grow right through the styrofoam peanuts and out the holes of the pot just like it usualy dies, then, you just repot.

[Breadfruit Bill]

Jerry, I think I get in theory what you are saying....  Are you suggesting that there is some capillary action if the medium is too heavy that pulls the water into the soil and will hold it there instead of gravity getting a hold of it and pulling it down through the soil column?  And that larger air pockets below the root zone would actually increase capillary strength?

Edit: did i just say that?  ???

[xerophyte_nyc]

the perched water table is an important concept:

The bottom of any given soil type will have a zone that does not drain out without a wick.  This zone is the same no matter what size container is used.  Within this zone, water remains and creates an oxygen-free environment that is useless to plants.  So when a layer of supposed drainage material is added to the bottom of a pot, what you are really doing is moving the perched water table further up and reducing the available soil to the roots.

A wick, such as a piece of cloth that is shoved in through a drainage hole, will allow the perched water table to be lowered because a path is created for the continued flow of water.

x

[Breadfruit Bill]

Well that makes good sense, maybe I can save my Vesties by raising them up on concrete blocks and by adding a wick...  I think I should like to try that versus repotting 200 plants bareroot and remixing soil components...

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Xerophyte,

Thanks for explaining it better than me.  It has been a few years since Horticultural Practices 101.

William, think of the soil as a sponge.  If you were to suspend the sponge in the air and drip water onto it, the sponge would become completely saturated before it starts to drip into the air (air representing the greatest air space).

Gina, yes some plants grow though anything but as Xerophyte explains, normally you are losing pot growing space or available media inside each pot.

Jerry

[alan.oz]

Jerry is absolutely correct.

For centuries horticulturalists have been been placing coarse materials at the bottom of pots to improve drainage when in fact it achieves the opposite. I still see popular gardening and plant books advocating this wrong practice.

[Darold Petty]

Jerry and Xerophyte have given a great explanation of this concept.  I have seen it mentioned in other plant discussions as well.  I do use a base layer of styrofoam peanuts, but only for epiphytic orchids potted in fir bark medium.  I never thought to use just a few to block the too-large drainage holes for potted palms.  Will do so in the future!

[Daryl]

A lot of the cycad growers here wick their pots to reduce the moisture due to perched water tables. At one of our Palm society meetings we saw the differences between over-wet mix and 'just right'. The growth difference was amazing. I guess that palms species that like soggy feet would not care less, but a lot of species like good drainage and regular moisture content.

Daryl.

[Breadfruit Bill]

So wicking out my pots is the only thing that would help them to drain better short of uprooting everything and remixing a lighter medium.... Peachy

Any suggestions for a good material to use for wicks?  Cotton? Old t-shirts? Rope?

[Phil]

Group,

When we imported cycads, they would come in with no roots (typically caudexes, but sometimes seedlings).  We potted them up in pure pumice.  The problem is that the pumice would typically pour out of the bottom drain holes and the pumice would just start lowering in the pot and make quite a mess.  This is particularly true with "band" containers which are notoriously poorly designed at their bases.  So, one must add something in the bottom of the pot to keep the pumice in place.  We've used pieces of broken clay pots and popcorn to act as a buffer to prevent the escape of the pumice.  It only takes about 1/2 inch in the bottom to stabilize the pumice.  New roots easily penetrate the popcorn.  "Bio-friendly" popcorn just dissolves and won't work.  Gravel tends to hold more moisture.  We've never seen water being held in pumice with this technique.  Water just swooshes right through.  When a now rooted plant graduates to a true cycad mix, nothing is needed in the bottom of the pot.  I don't remember the seedlings that Matt refered to, but we just use our palm mix when potting up band palm seedlings.  It holds in place nicely but has to be compacted a bit before putting in the plant.   I have seen orchid growers add popcorn directly to redwood bark chips and roots penetrate right through the popcorn.  

Phil

[PalmGuyWC]

I guess I do it the hard way, and what I do would never work for a nurseryman, since it's time consuming.  I cut out strips from an old plastic pot, then cut the strips into squares.  I put the squares in front of the drainage holes, then put in about an inch of pourus pea gravel. The pea gravel holds the plastic squares in place. Even though the drainage holes are mostly blocked, I still get good drainage, and I don't lose any potting soil this way.

I grow a lot of Rhapis and their roots need a lot of oxygen, but yet need moisture, and the pea gravel seems to supply this.  When I repot the plants, the pea gravel shakes away from the roots and makes it eaiser to divide them.

Dick

[JungleGina]

Uh oh! I've used those peanuts and, besides all the other good reasons given above not to do it, I didn't even think about the environmentally friendly ones dissolving. I'd better go home and repot some things before I have a disaster on my hands!

[XYZ]

Interesting exchange, but some points need to be clarified.

Stagnant areas at the bottoms of pots tend to be associated with use of heavier mixes in plastic pots/tubs. As a rule, I use a 1-2" layer of river stone drainage in the potsof everything that I grow in soil mixes (and this includes a very wide range of plant families), but I use very light, free-draining media as well (3 mm pumice & composted pine/oak leaf litter at 1:1-1:1.5). Likewise, fine bark mixes containing hort charcoal and perlite or pumice show no evidence of developing anaerobic zones in the pots, even after years of use. As has been others experience here, root systems develop vigorously and readily grow straight through the drainage layer into substrate beneath.

I also grow thousands of tricky young palms in a 1:1 blend of coarse peat and styromull (styrofoam beads) in 24 cell forestry trays with no problems related to drainage whatsoever. Bare-rooted their root systems show consistently vigorous development. I also use styromull for delicate broms and some aroid seedlings...no worries.

Point that cellulose-based peanuts should NEVER be used in hort mixes should be noted by all. Well-wetted, they disssolve to gunk in short order.

SJ

[Kathryn]

I threw out a bunch of peanuts a few months ago – which I hated to do but I didn’t have any use for them. Just as always, I’ll hang on to something for years and as soon as I throw it out, I find the perfect use for it.

At least I now have something to do with all the wine corks I’ve been saving. Thanks Gina!