Minimum allowable distance between a wall and Washingtonia filifera?

[MSX]

Hello palmtalkers! I've been doing some garden planning and I need your opinion on minimum allowable distance between Washingtonia filifera plantings and the wall. The main purpose is to plant the palms as close to the walls as possible, so they would benefit from the warmer walls during winter while providing cooling shade during summer, but how close is the question. Thanks!

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by MSX

[MarcusH]

10 minutes ago, MSX said:

Hello palmtalkers! I've been doing some garden planning and I need your opinion on minimum allowable distance between Washingtonia filifera plantings and the wall. The main purpose is to plant the palms as close to the walls as possible, so they will benefit from the warmer walls during winter while providing cooling shade during summer, but how close is the question. Thanks!

 

I'm not an expert but I can tell you a pure Filifera can get massive in trunk diameter roughly 3ft can be expected plus the canopy can grow from 10ft to 15ft in diameter as well.   

[ryjohn]

The limiting factor will be wind sway of the trunk when it gets taller, which will damage the wall.  They don’t tend to sway a lot, but I’d want at least a foot worth of clearance from the wall once the trunk gets to maximum diameter.  Assuming max diameter on the trunk at 6’ height would be about 3’, you’d want to plant at least 2.5’ from the wall.  That said, I bet if you planted it right up against the wall, it would grow at least a foot away from the wall anyways at 6’ height, as it stretches toward the southerly sun.  Palm roots should not damage the wall.

[jwitt]

Curve it!

[ryjohn]

I bet those filiferas have experienced some brutal heat, cold, and droughts!

[Arecaceus]

I would give it some good space. I might have even planted mine too close to a fence but I gave it as much space as possible. Mine is leaning a bit away from the fence, as it's south facing, and there are/were plants next to it. I've seen this on this forum before. They sometimes tend to lean towards the sun. I would expect the trunk to grow at least to 1 metre in diameter. There is that W. filifera (might be somewhat of a hybrid) in Wimbledon, London, this might give you a picture of one close to a house:

[jwitt]

35 minutes ago, ryjohn said:

I bet those filiferas have experienced some brutal heat, cold, and droughts!

@6000 feet to!

[jwitt]

Be careful. Ten feet and leaves may still rub wall with no curve away.

[Las Palmas Norte]

Another factor inexperienced people tend to make is planting under overhead obstructions and utility lines.

[Jubaea_James760]

 Thats a tough question, trunk diameter size varies so much on filifera's.  If your getting a pure filifera with no hybridization in it's genetics the trunk size still varies.  On average filifera do grow up to 3ft. In diameter but that's at chest high on up, below is even wider. I have a filifera close by me that has to be 7ft plus in diameter at the very bottom! One of the biggest I've ever seen. I nice healthy Washingtonia is almost always going to be bigger at the very bottom & that is important planting next to stuff. That being said, to be on the safe side imo 3.25 feet. Will 3ft. work? I'm sure in most cases.

[Arecaceus]

I also feel like it depends on how much space they have. P, canariensis also seems to have a thinner trunk if it hasn't enough space. But that is more in the ground. If it can get big on the ground it will form a fat trunk. Irrigation might also be a factor. Depending on how you give it water it may stretch out its roots more sideways. I don't know if this automatically gives it a fatter trunk but I can at least imagine.

[SeanK]

19 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I'm not an expert but I can tell you a pure Filifera can get massive in trunk diameter roughly 3ft can be expected plus the canopy can grow from 10ft to 15ft in diameter as well.   

Seems like 10-ft from any wall, roof or power line.

[Las Palmas Norte]

During the coldest overnight lows, I can't see any serious advantage to planting proximity. Minimal at best. What will be beneficial is any daytime sheltered sun warming.

[jwitt]

37 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

During the coldest overnight lows, I can't see any serious advantage to planting proximity. Minimal at best. What will be beneficial is any daytime sheltered sun warming.

Thermal radiation can be huge from structures. Especially if a structure has mass(concrete/adobe, etc.)

[jwitt]

5 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

During the coldest overnight lows, I can't see any serious advantage to planting proximity. Minimal at best. What will be beneficial is any daytime sheltered sun warming.

Back to back nights of -11f  and 0f the following fall in a zone 6b.  Unprotected.

[Jubaea_James760]

17 hours ago, Jubaea_James760 said:

 Thats a tough question, trunk diameter size varies so much on filifera's.  If your getting a pure filifera with no hybridization in it's genetics the trunk size still varies.  On average filifera do grow up to 3ft. In diameter but that's at chest high on up, below is even wider. I have a filifera close by me that has to be 7ft plus in circumference at the very bottom! One of the biggest I've ever seen. I nice healthy Washingtonia is almost always going to be bigger at the very bottom & that is important planting next to stuff. That being said, to be on the safe side imo 3.25 feet. Will 3ft. work? I'm sure in most cases.

Had to fix an error from diameter to circumference 

[MarcusH]

22 hours ago, SeanK said:

Seems like 10-ft from any wall, roof or power line.

Like I said 10 to 15ft depending on location , fertilization or overall care. 

[MarcusH]

10 hours ago, Jubaea_James760 said:

Had to fix an error from diameter to circumference 

I see Filiferas here in San Antonio all the time and the trunks can get massive especially at the bottom like you mentioned . I wouldn't want that one growing too close to my house wall. 

[MSX]

On 2/8/2023 at 2:59 AM, ryjohn said:

The limiting factor will be wind sway of the trunk when it gets taller, which will damage the wall.   

Palm roots should not damage the wall.

Thanks for highlighting an important wind sway factor, also it is a good thing if their massive roots won't damage a building foundation

  

On 2/8/2023 at 3:02 AM, jwitt said:

Curve it!

the right specimen is about 6ft/1.8-1.9m from the wall, interesting

  

On 2/8/2023 at 7:42 PM, SeanK said:

Seems like 10-ft from any wall, roof or power line.

Even such a simple thing as positioning a palm tree in the garden turns out to be another science!

  

On 2/8/2023 at 10:34 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

During the coldest overnight lows, I can't see any serious advantage to planting proximity. Minimal at best. What will be beneficial is any daytime sheltered sun warming.

Here's just a quick one real life example, non-palmy one thought. I took these pics yesterday. Two same sized, same age privet trees planted nearby but in different settings, yes both plants suffering from cold damage (-16C/3F), both not looking good in general. However, the one that is growing next to the building showing significantly less leaf damage, there are even some green leaves with actually healthy tissue

the tree that was planted nearby but away from any building/structures looks much worse, the foliage completely burnt

Edited February 10, 2023 by MSX

[Jubaea_James760]

@MSX, so your planning to put a filifera up against the wall of your house? I just assumed from your drawing photo that it was going to be by a perimeter brick wall around your property. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:14 AM, jwitt said:

Thermal radiation can be huge from structures. Especially if a structure has mass(concrete/adobe, etc.)

I live in a wood framed typical suburban home. Winters are long here above the 49th, damp and cool. My temperatures show no appreciable difference with planting location during much of that time, especially with the prevailing SE winds. Where it does make a difference, is on the shoulder seasons and during the growing season. I can see proximity plantings making a more substantial difference in more southerly climates and with the structure types you mention.

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

I live in a wood framed typical suburban home. Winters are long here above the 49th, damp and cool. My temperatures show no appreciable difference with planting location during much of that time, especially with the prevailing SE winds. Where it does make a difference, is on the shoulder seasons and during the growing season. I can see proximity plantings making a more substantial difference in more southerly climates and with the structure types you mention.

Or taking the "edge" off of a zone 6/7 winter. 

[MSX]

18 hours ago, Jubaea_James760 said:

@MSX, so your planning to put a filifera up against the wall of your house? I just assumed from your drawing photo that it was going to be by a perimeter brick wall around your property. 

Well, I'm thinking to plant some filifera seedlings in the back yard and see how they perform in different places. And yes, one is them is going in a sunny south corner where perimeter wall meets the house, other filiferas will be planted in a row along the perimeter wall around

Another example. This smaller potted washingtonia was left overwintering outside by the adobe perimeter wall. Now it's hard to say if this palm is still alive or not - the spear leaf is okay, the older fronds appear damaged but the newer fronds showing healthy green tissue, even if it eventually dies it's quite surprising to see green color at all on a smaller specimen growing by the wall while older specimens planted away from walls in the middle of the back yard and in the front yard showing no sign of green even on larger and massive fronds, they all straw yellow. don't know what it is - just a genetically more sustainable specimen (less robusta more filifera genes) or the wall really helped it for stay in somewhat better shape than the others.

jan 15 (5 days after the ultimate lows of -16c/3f)

feb 7 (23 days from after the ultimate lows)

condition of other specimens planted away from walls, no healthy tissue anywhere in leaflets, except petiole bases

Edited February 11, 2023 by MSX

[Patrick]

I wouldnt worry as much about roots. Palms are monocots, not dicots so they behave differently underground. I vote 8-10' away minimum.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Patrick

[SailorBold]

On 2/10/2023 at 4:58 PM, jwitt said:

Or taking the "edge" off of a zone 6/7 winter. 

Duration is important.. this last particular I actually hit the lowest temperature for the season this morning.. 8a/b ish..  15f..  for 5-10 minutes?

[Dig The Soil]

From my experience in the desert, I concur with the gentleman two entries prior: 8-10' min.