Socratea exorrhiza

[bubba]

I was reading Riffle and Craft's "Cultivated Palms" last night and came upon this exquisite palm. Most notable is it's incredible blue crownshaft.It is indigenous from Nicaragua to the Guiana's.Unfortunately, it may not survive sustained low temperatures of 55 degrees F. Does anyone world-wide and particularly Hawaii or the Florida Key's have any success stories regarding the cultivation of this palm?

[Logolight]

I have a few seeds that I'm trying to germinate here in Jacksonville but I'm sure they'll have to stay indoors during the winter months.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

I'm pretty darn sure Bo-Göran is growing them successfully in Hawaii...  I'll let you know how mine do in a couple years!

[Gbarce]

Will: when did you sow your seeds? Did you germinate those guys in the fish tank?

I only have 2 root sprouts the other 8 have not shown any sign of movement.

The 2 seeds (Can't even call them seedlings yet) are doing fine in my shade house and we have been getting a lot of rain lately here in manila.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Only put them in the soil about maybe 6-7 weeks ago... can't really remember...  Didn't put them in the fish tank...  I only use the incubator during the winter...  It raises my electric bill about 40-50 dollars a month due to all the lighting I added to it...  and in the winter time, my electric bill drops that much due to less a/c use...  When the weather permits (summer time here) I use good old methods, like put the seed in the dirt in a pot and leave it in a shady warm place...  Old methods work the best!  Haven't even had to use my sprinklers in the last couple weeks, it's finally been raining regularly!

[Gbarce]

I bagged mine in June 9 after a 3 day soak in water.  So far just 2 have popped.  No actual root yet and no actual spear yet.  Just white fat protusion with a spear developing.

I used the old cocopeat in a tuppeware version of the baggie method-- just to compare notes.  Ite been over 12 weeks for me with only 20% so far.  Hmmm....

[www.dadluvsu.com]

seed freshness is always key!

[Gbarce]

Will - do you only order the items that are marked as  "new" on the websites  and avoid those that have been on the list for over a month?

Some of the items on these websites have been there for several months.  I was contemplating the lollipop palms but those seeds have been posted  there since June.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

You got it Gene...  I only order new items...  My first palm seed purchase had alot of old seeds and I was not ahppy with germ rates...  I learned that lesson real quick! Check with Jospeh at www.ortanique.com  He has had alot of new items that have been on my want list recently become available...  Did you get those L. orbiculus from RPS that were "new" recently?

[Gbarce]

Nope.  I was able to get seeds from that site that I PM'd you before about the mapu seeds.  I figured they should be the source of the freshest seeds because that species comes from that part of the world.  Plus its closer to my country so shipping would be faster.  Plus it was cheaper too I think.

But I did have problems with a lot of my orders from that site - (which is why I'd rather not mention their name in this forum)

Ortanique has Joey on a stick - I bet you ordered those.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

I wanted them but I am fresh out of cash for a while...  Read the Reverse osmosis thread and you'll understand why...  :cool:

[bgl]

Yes, I have a number of these in the ground. Here's the crownshaft of one of the smaller ones.

[bubba]

Bo, Are they fast grower's? Is there anyway for you to verify just how much in the way of cool temperature's(55 degrees F)these palms can take before absolution?

[bgl]

Bubba,

I'd say they are moderately fast. Will check my records and try to come up with some actual numbers in a little while. And maybe another photo or two. Heading out the door right now!

Have no idea about cool/cold tolerance. I think the very lowest temp we've had here in the last 11 years is right around 57F on a very cold winter night!

Bo-Göran

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Keith,

I'm guessin they won't be well suited for growing here without some kind of winter protection...  Check out Fairchild's comments on this genus...

http://www.palmguide.org/genus.php?family=...;genus=Socratea

[metalfan]

WHat a gorgeous palm! But its name sounds a little like a dermatological disease!

[bubba]

Bill, Thank you for the link.Before reading it, I got excited thinking that they had five OUTDOOR specimens at Fairchild.Then I see their "sheltered". I guess I can forget trying it here! And Bo I bet that 57 degree morning sent pure chills down your back. Beautiful palm.Anyone deep in the Key's growing one?

[Gileno Machado]

Bubba:

These are sort of difficult palms to get established. They may not take much cold but they don't seem to enjoy full sun and extreme heat either, at least during the seedling stage.

Here's the best one I have, ouside in moderate to deep shade, under canopy:

aerial roots:

[Gileno Machado]

view from the top

[ron@springhammock]

Gene, I didn't have any better luck with RPS.  I also had  only 2 out of 10 germinate.  What's worse when I potted up one of the two, it abruptly died on me, so now I only have one left.  I held off potting up my last one, but when it developed several heavy roots popping out of the bottom of the pot I had to do it.  Fortunately, it survived the experience, even though I did break one of the root tips.  None the less, I would still consider these as sensitive to root disturbance (considering my extremely limited experience).

I was also tempted into buying these because of the purple crown shaft.  I'm a little worried that my palm's is a very light lime green.  I hope it's because of it's youth.

[ron@springhammock]

I also noticed that mine looks a bit different from Gileno's.  Mine has very spiny prop roots and appears to have a much darker stem.  

Gileno, what's the color of your palms crownshaft?

[garrin]

Socratea does fine here on the east side of Hawaii's Big Island -- I have even seen it naturalizing near cultivated specimens.  The main thing as far as I have found here with mine is to give the crowns a maximum of light after they begin to trunk -- even full sun, but don't ever let the sun strike the emerging stilt roots or the tips die.  I'm sure this is typical of rain forest emergent palms whose bases always remain in the deep shade.  Socratea here is fairly fast once a trunk begins to form, and they seem to flower at a young age.

Garrin in Hawaii

[bgl]

OK, had time to take a few photos. As far as I know these are all Socratea exorrhiza. And Gina, I read somewhere that Socratea is the only palm ever named after a philosopher (Socrates). How a South American palm got to be named after a Greek philosopher is interesting, but there's probably an interesting story behind that!

Here are two individuals. Bought both of these in 1G pots from Floribunda in Nov 1998 ($4 each!) and planted them. Now, almost 9 years later, the difference in growth is quite astounding. The one that's closest to the camera is probably about 20 ft tall while the one in the background is obviously quite a bit smaller.

[bgl]

And a different individual that's been fruiting for several years. The seeds self germinate like crazy, as can be seen in this photo, but they are VERY difficult to dig up and transplant. I've tried, and the success rate is right around 10%. From now on, I'm just going to pick up the seeds instead!

[bgl]

Here's our tallest individual. Bought this one from Palms of Paradise in April 1996. It was in a 15G pot ($140 - pricey!!), and was about 9-10 ft tall. Not sure how to measure the trunk, but measured from ground level up to where the crownshaft begins is right around 28 ft. Overall height of the palm is about 40 ft tall. So, it's been adding right around 2 ft of actual trunk per year, which certainly isn't slow.

The palm all the way to the left is an Iriartea deltoidea, and between the Iriartea and the Socratea is another Socratea, a little bit in the background (right behind the smaller Schippia concolor). Both of these Socrateas have been fruiting for several years.

[bgl]

Looking up in the crown of the taller one in the previous post.

[bgl]

And finally, a look at the roots which are truly unique, and always gets a lot of attention when we have guests here for a garden tour. I built a trail just to the right of this one, but now the roots have made the trail impassable with a wheelbarrow!

[Dypsisdean]

Bubba,

I have had several of these in the ground for a couple of years. I am about 5-6 degrees cooler than Bo at any given time. So, mine have seen close to 50 and are fine.

However, as I'm sure you know, how often and how long the temp stays there is just as critical. For me, that's not long and not often. And the daytime temps are always at least 70.

[Gbarce]

As a small plant it looks like the roots are having a hard time keeping the whole plantlet stable  I just have some questions:

Do you have to put a stake beside it and tie it up for support?

I it advisable to put the seedling in a really oevrsized pot from the start?

Is it ok to bury the exposed roots - have the soil up to teh base of the trunk-  or is that a bad idea?

[bgl]

Gene,

Yes, smaller plants are very unstable. I havn't used a stake, but I've lost a few that just fell over. I'm sure a stake would be useful. Havn't tried to bury the exposed roots, but for some reason I don't think that's the right approach. But try it with one plant and see what happens!!

Bo-Göran

And yes, an oversized pot is a good idea.

[JakeK]

(Gileno Machado @ Sep. 20 2007,16:05)

QUOTE

Bubba:

These are sort of difficult palms to get established. They may not take much cold but they don't seem to enjoy full sun and extreme heat either, at least during the seedling stage.

Here's the best one I have, ouside in moderate to deep shade, under canopy:

aerial roots:

Gileno,

I can't vouch for seedlings but the lodge I stayed at recently in Costa Rica had several excellent specimens of Socratea in the full hot sun of 8*N latitude and 200m asl. These looked better than the wild ones I saw, but that could be due to the ones at the lodge having a fuller crown.

[Jason in Orlando]

Bubba,

Unless my Socratea are an exception, they can definitely take lower than 55.  Mine have seen the mid 30s F on occassion (sheltered, perhaps only got to around 40), and the most I have had is some leaf spotting.  Mine also grow throughout the winter, albeit slowly.  I have found many of the so-called "ultra-tropicals" will tolerate temperatures lower than the claims if sheltered, including Verschaffeltia and Cyrtostachys renda (mid 30s and around 40 respectively).  They will however, especially in the case of the Verschaffeltia, suffer some stunting and burning on the leaves.  To summarize, lower temps than 55 are most certainly not an automatic death sentence.

Jason

[Gileno Machado]

(ron@springhammock @ Sep. 20 2007,19:07)

QUOTE

I also noticed that mine looks a bit different from Gileno's.  Mine has very spiny prop roots and appears to have a much darker stem.  

Gileno, what's the color of your palms crownshaft?

Hi Ron:

I guess I had missed your question. In my young Socrateas the crownshafts are still solid green and I hope they can get bluer as they grow up. Also thanks Garrin in Hawaii for the tip about not exposing the emerging stilt roots to full sun. That's probably why my seedlings haven't quite improved unless positioned in deep shade.

Bo:

I looked at Lorenzi's book in order to check who was the Botanist/Taxonomist who named Socratea for the first time, and I found it to be Karst. and Barbosa Rodrigues (Barb. Rodr.) in 1857, the later was the Chief curator of Rio's botanic gardens. They were both probably admirers of the ancient greek philosophers and decided to honor their favorite.

The whole historic taxonomic sequence for this species of palm is:

Iriartea exorrhiza (Martius), Iriartea durissima (Oerst.)Iriartea orbygniana (Drude), Iriartea philonotia (Barb. Rodr.), Socratea elegans var orbygniana (Karst.), Socratea albolineata (Steyerm.), Socratea gracilis (Burret), Socratea microchlamys (Burret), Socratea orbygniana Mart. (Karst.), Socratea philonotia Barb. Rodr. (Hook). and finally it was decided to come back to Socratea exorrhiza (Mart.) H. Wendl (1860), who adopted Martius original epithet. (Who is going to change the name of the genus and species again next time?)  ???

[Halekuma]

Is there anyway for you to verify just how much in the way of cool temperature's(55 degrees F)these palms can take before absolution?

There are some socratea exorrhiza near my wife's homeland in Antioquia (colombia)... I have seen quite a few in "relative" high altitude places looking great. Those places have a 22C temp. at day and 12-14C at night ALL YEAR AROUND. Some palms that looks like enjoy this variable temps are dyctiocaryum lamarckianum and ceroxylon. There are plenty of archontophoenix, roystonea regia and syagrus sancona there too.

[Kailua_Krish]

Ive got a few seedlings of this one I’m thinking of planting here in Oahu but the area I’m planning is currently a brush pile with 3+ feet of dead logs piled. Do you think if I stuck the pots (without planting) between logs the stilt roots would go down and anchor this one in place? I was thinking it would keep the stilt roots moist while young too as the pile never dries out. 

[realarch]

Flash from the past. I used to have a rather large one that was taken out by a strong tropical storm a few years back. Fast growing, beautiful, but mine was unstable because of the stilt roots. Whenever strong winds were forecast, I would tie the trunk off to other nearby palms which over time became a PIA. It finally succumbed to mother nature.

If I were to do it again, I'd find a protected spot with a bit of shade so a strong cone of stilt roots could develop and anchor properly. Mine was in full sun and like a comment above, the root tips would die and not reach the ground hampering stability. (A seedling germinated near the mother plant and might have a better chance than the one planted from a 5 gal. container. We'll see.)

krishnaraoji88, I'd plant them rather than leave them in the pots as I think they would have a better chance long term. 

Here are a few photos.....RIP. ( In the first photo the palm left of the Socratea is an Iriartea, and in the second photo the palm right of the Socratea is a Wettinia.)

Tim 

[Justin]

Mine is still kicking, and made it through some high wind events, but I really wish it had more roots.  Compared to other stilt root palms, Socrateas put out less roots, at least at my place.  I have a Wettinia that is similar in looks, but is much more stable.

[Justin]

Photo of mine:

[Kailua_Krish]

Nice looking plants!

Its honestly a question of laziness about the pot, given that most of their roots grow from the stem it seems like that it wouldn't harm them just to sit the pot where you want the palm and then shade and stabilize it. You would also get some of the advantages of growing in a pot while they're small. The area Im going to place it in is a brush pile so Id be tucking them between branches anyways which hopefully will shade the trunk enough to make good stilt roots

[KrisKupsch]

We have Socratea exorrhiza here in NE NSW, Australia, latitude -28 S and see 35.5 F/2C most winters for a few nights and daytime max temps below 65F /18C for a week or so but overall a good 3 months of weather you wouldn’t expect them to like let alone the dry season in Spring. They are kinda surprisingly tough if given shelter out of the wind and in moist soil. I heap up organic matter around the roots and also use large PVC tubing in the early stages to encourage the roots. We get about 70” /1800mm per year and I’ve got 11 of them.