Coconut or Kentia?

[Victor G.]

Hey guys, I was disagreeing with a friend on the subject, whether these are coconuts or kentias.

They do look a lot like coconuts but the formation of the leaves and the part where the stem ends and the crown begins resemble kentias a lot.

[iko.]

Coconuts. I think I can even see some fruit in the first picture.

Howea would have a cleaner look,  curved rachis, leaflet falling down, a less rugose trunk sometimes even green,...

Also, these pictures seem to be taken in a place where sun is strong. Howeas would struggle to make such big fronds if they have too much sun.

Edited December 15, 2022 by iko.

[Foxpalms]

Coconuts I think. Especially the trunk it looks much more like the trunk of a coconut.

[Victor G.]

  On 12/15/2022 at 10:02 AM, iko. said:

Coconuts. I think I can even see some fruit in the first picture.

Howea would have a cleaner look,  curved rachis, leaflet falling down, a less rugose trunk sometimes even green,...

Also, these pictures seem to be taken in a place where sun is strong. Howeas would struggle to make such big fronds if they have too much sun.

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Thanks! The person that took the pictures claimed there are no fruit in neither of them, but maybe you're right.

About the sun: It depends. If you grow Howeas from a seedling in full sun, they can get completely used to it. We have some howeas in Greece that are fully exposed to sun and do well. And the UV index in summer hits 10-11 on a daily basis.

If, however, they aren't used to the sun and one places them in full sun, yes, they will suffer horrible burns.

I know about a kentia in Athens that grows on a stone garden, which has full sun and temps around 35-40 degrees celsius all summer long!

[Victor G.]

  On 12/15/2022 at 10:06 AM, Foxpalms said:

Coconuts I think. Especially the trunk it looks much more like the trunk of a coconut.

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Thanks for the answer!

The last picture was that got me thinking. I know for a fact that the specimen below is a kentia, and it shows remarkable similarity to the last picture of the original post.

[Axel Amsterdam]

I am no expert on coconuts but for me a kentia has thinner petioles, especially where leaving the trunk.

The thicker petioles and the yellowish color of the petioles looks coconut to me.

[Axel Amsterdam]

You can see the thin petioles of the kentias and also the emerging fronds do not grow upright but immediately fould over and start drooping

[Victor G.]

  On 12/15/2022 at 5:23 PM, Axel Amsterdam said:

You can see the thin petioles of the kentias and also the emerging fronds do not grow upright but immediately fould over and start drooping

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I see what you mean, you're right! Thanks!

I do confuse the two species somethimes, but I'm beginning to see the difference

[SeanK]

Are Kentias induplicate or reduplicate?

[Steve Mac]

Mine start off as reduplicate at the petiole but go flat pretty quickly.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

  On 12/15/2022 at 9:33 AM, Victor G. said:

Hey guys, I was disagreeing with a friend on the subject, whether these are coconuts or kentias.

They do look a lot like coconuts but the formation of the leaves and the part where the stem ends and the crown begins resemble kentias a lot.

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Definitely Coconut Palms.  Where were the pics taken?

John

[Maltese coconut project]

Coconut

[Maltese coconut project]

I think it's Lucknow northern India. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

  On 12/16/2022 at 4:35 AM, Maltese coconut project said:

I think it's Lucknow northern India. 

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Oh, you think the pics were taken in Northern India?

John

[Victor G.]

  On 12/16/2022 at 4:35 AM, Maltese coconut project said:

I think it's Lucknow northern India. 

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Wow, you're good! Very good!

It's indeed in Lucknow 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

  On 12/16/2022 at 5:18 AM, Victor G. said:

Wow, you're good! Very good!

It's indeed in Lucknow 

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In that case, they may be Indian Talls, likely the most cold hardy variety of Coconut Palm in the World, likely hardy down to 25F when they are well established and have some size to them, which would make them the perfect variety for those of us growing Coconut Palms in marginal climates for them!!!  By being hardy down to such a temp, does not mean they could handle temps that low every winter, but could likely handle temps down to that point at least once in the coarse of their lifetimes without it killing them, and could probably handle several freezes over the coarse of their lifetimes in the 27F to 30F range, as well as prolonged chilly periods, without it killing them.

John

[Victor G.]

  On 12/16/2022 at 5:32 AM, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

In that case, they may be Indian Talls, likely the most cold hardy variety of Coconut Palm in the World, likely hardy down to 25F when they are well established and have some size to them, which would make them the perfect variety for those of us growing Coconut Palms in marginal climates for them!!!  By being hardy down to such a temp, does not mean they could handle temps that low every winter, but could likely handle temps down to that point at least once in the coarse of their lifetimes without it killing them, and could probably handle several freezes over the coarse of their lifetimes in the 27F to 30F range, as well as prolonged chilly periods, without it killing them.

John

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I'll tell the friend!

He did want to bring some coconuts back home, so we could try them. His thought was to go as far north as he could and bring coconuts from there.

Unfortunately none of these have any, but at least we know the variety now.

It's already very cold there in the night, but the warm temperatures during daytime help of course.

Thanks!

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

  On 12/16/2022 at 5:40 AM, Victor G. said:

I'll tell the friend!

He did want to bring some coconuts back home, so we could try them. His thought was to go as far north as he could and bring coconuts from there.

Unfortunately none of these have any, but at least we know the variety now.

It's already very cold there in the night, but the warm temperatures during daytime help of course.

Thanks!

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You are welcome.  I have seen pics of Coconut Palms about 40 ft. to 50 ft. tall in overall height with coconuts on them in the foothills of the Himalayan Mountains in Northern India.  They are likely the Indian Tall.  If you could get some viable ripe mature nuts with coconut water in them from that area, they would probably produce palms with similar cold hardiness.

John

[Maltese coconut project]

It's because one of those pictures was posted on one of the content I started and the member who posted them described the location 

[Maltese coconut project]

Lucklow has year round coconut safe daytime high temperatures. Only the night time lows between November and February might be non coconut safe but temperatures rebound during daytime.  Prolonged cools are not safe for coconut palms but mostly it's because the soil biota slows down and they will start suffering deficiencies due to the slowed down nutrient absorption through roots. In the case of Lucklow the ideal temperature will kick start again during daytime.  Of course growth rate slows down due to the night time low temperatures. This winter I will confirm how much difference foliar fertilizer might do and whether foliar fertilizer is enough to bypass the cool non freezing temperature coconut health problems (again due to improper absorption of nutrients through the roots during cool weather). Also it explains why planting in the ground makes a significant difference in survival rates of coconut palms in marginal climates during winter. It's because soil temperature range becomes more stable the deeper in the soil on goes. According to this interesting study, soil diurnal soil temperature difference is minimised from 0.4m (40 cm) (16 inches) soil depth and at 4 meters (roughly 13 feet) of soil depth temperatures become constant https://geothermal-energy-journal.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40517-017-0082-z

[gurugu]

Just a question: What does really rot first in a palm, the crown or the neck ?

I don´t know if I´m wrong  but  when palms are healthy, crowns are sealed to the trunk, so if it rains on the palm or if you  sprinkle  foliar fertilizer on it, the rainwater  and the fertilizer diluted in water, just slips down the rachis, petiole and leaf sheath but can´t get into the crown, unles it is already rot or damaged . Only in that case, it does get in and rots the crown.

In other words: doesn´t  the crown get rot because the roots are already rotted? (it´s not a tongtwister: lol)

That´s why, when they are small and sheltered in a framework, they don´t get rot that easily, unless it is heavily watered in winter, or the palm hasn´t been planted on a mound.

So, a partial solution would be to avoid rainwater  touching or affecting the palm neck in winter .

A plastic tied around the trunk to do so, would be the key.

What do you think?

 

 

[Maltese coconut project]

 Probably the first problem comes from the hidden part that is the roots.. Then is shows up on top 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Maltese coconut project

[Victor G.]

  On 12/16/2022 at 11:59 AM, gurugu said:

Just a question: What does really rot first in a palm, the crown or the neck ?

 

I don´t know if I´m wrong  but  when palms are healthy, crowns are sealed to the trunk, so if it rains on the palm or if you  sprinkle  foliar fertilizer on it, the rainwater  and the fertilizer diluted in water, just slips down the rachis, petiole and leaf sheath but can´t get into the crown, unles it is already rot or damaged . Only in that case, it does get in and rots the crown.

 

In other words: doesn´t  the crown get rot because the roots are already rotted? (it´s not a tongtwister: lol)

 

That´s why, when they are small and sheltered in a framework, they don´t get rot that easily, unless it is heavily watered in winter, or the palm hasn´t been planted on a mound.

 

So, a partial solution would be to avoid rainwater  touching or affecting the palm neck in winter .

 

A plastic tied around the trunk to do so, would be the key.

 

What do you think?

 

 

 

 

 

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I have no idea, but I'd like to hear some answers from people who might know!

[gurugu]

  On 12/17/2022 at 8:45 AM, Victor G. said:

I have no idea, but I'd like to hear some answers from people who might know!

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So far, no answer from experts on biology or botany. As you say, that would be much appreciated, to learn more about the process of rotting. 

  On 12/17/2022 at 8:02 AM, Maltese coconut project said:

 Probably the first problem comes from the hidden part that is the roots.. Then is shows up on top 

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Maybe that's why many coconuts growing in marginal places and being planted surrounded by concrete or tiles have survived. 

Because soil remains warmer and wet enough to allow the plant to grow and stay alive. 

[Aleitalyyy]

hello guys where is this magnificent palm? Is it possible to have seeds even for a fee from the person who took the photo?

[Aleitalyyy]

  On 12/15/2022 at 10:31 AM, Victor G. said:

Thanks for the answer!

The last picture was that got me thinking. I know for a fact that the specimen below is a kentia, and it shows remarkable similarity to the last picture of the original post.

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I'm talking about this

[Victor G.]

  On 12/23/2022 at 1:56 PM, Aleitalyyy said:

I'm talking about this

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I took the picture! But it was in the island of Rhodes and I live in Athens, so it's hard to get the seeds.

But you can find it everywhere, it's called Kentia Palm (scientific name Howea Fosteriana).

I think it can take some cold, so it must be easy to keep outside. Most people claim that it can't take a lot of sun - and they're right, but only if you buy a big plant. If you grow it from seed in full sun, it won't have a problem.

I'm sure you can find it in many nurseries there

[Aleitalyyy]

@Vittorio G. yes yes I know it's a kentia... I know them very well it's full even here in Italy in northern Italy by the sea... however, I've never seen one so beautiful with such a trunk and such luxuriant foliage... that's why I asked for the seeds... it's a variant of kentia I think... beautiful... if you happen to be over there again and there are seeds please take them...

[Aleitalyyy]

  On 12/16/2022 at 11:59 AM, gurugu said:

Just a question: What does really rot first in a palm, the crown or the neck ?

 

I don´t know if I´m wrong  but  when palms are healthy, crowns are sealed to the trunk, so if it rains on the palm or if you  sprinkle  foliar fertilizer on it, the rainwater  and the fertilizer diluted in water, just slips down the rachis, petiole and leaf sheath but can´t get into the crown, unles it is already rot or damaged . Only in that case, it does get in and rots the crown.

 

In other words: doesn´t  the crown get rot because the roots are already rotted? (it´s not a tongtwister: lol)

 

That´s why, when they are small and sheltered in a framework, they don´t get rot that easily, unless it is heavily watered in winter, or the palm hasn´t been planted on a mound.

 

So, a partial solution would be to avoid rainwater  touching or affecting the palm neck in winter .

 

A plastic tied around the trunk to do so, would be the key.

 

What do you think?

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm not an expert, however, from my experience on my 3 year old potted coconut palm, I've noticed that water in an enclosed, humid environment such as behind a window, if it is introduced into the meristem causes the new one to rot emerging leaf ... happened to me when I sprayed rainwater on the leaves and then the new leaf came out half black ... from then on I never sprayed water on the leaves again when the plant is indoors in the winter months ...

but I only sprayed it in the summer and only sea water... sea water kills mold..... so I think the thing between roots and foliage is not related... but it is obvious that if foliage takes too much water and molds form in the meristem automatically there is the same situation that the roots get moldy....

just today I gave an anti-mould chemical spray on the coconut at the base of the nut where white mold and moss form ... then oh well my coconut is attacked by cuccinilla and red spider every summer ... so I give chemical poison spray ...

[Victor G.]

  On 12/23/2022 at 4:36 PM, Aleitalyyy said:

@Vittorio G. yes yes I know it's a kentia... I know them very well it's full even here in Italy in northern Italy by the sea... however, I've never seen one so beautiful with such a trunk and such luxuriant foliage... that's why I asked for the seeds... it's a variant of kentia I think... beautiful... if you happen to be over there again and there are seeds please take them...

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Ah okay, I thought you were asking about the plant. Yeah it looks awesome!

For a few seconds, when I first saw it, I thought is was a coconut. Do we know when kentias produce seeds? Is it in late summer, like most trees?

(Rhodes is far away, but I'll keep that on mind, if I ever go there again)

[Aleitalyyy]

yes nice estate should...

that palm is really beautiful ... it is more beautiful than a green cultivar coconut ...

it's definitely worth taking seeds and trying to get children out of that palm... I swear! thanks victor ok! anyway I'm glad you're from Corfu, my grandfather was from Corfu!

[Victor G.]

  On 12/23/2022 at 5:38 PM, Aleitalyyy said:

yes nice estate should...

that palm is really beautiful ... it is more beautiful than a green cultivar coconut ...

it's definitely worth taking seeds and trying to get children out of that palm... I swear! thanks victor ok! anyway I'm glad you're from Corfu, my grandfather was from Corfu!

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Mistake! I'm from Athens, but interesting! I want to visit Corfu in the future, must be very nice!

[Aleitalyyy]

  On 12/23/2022 at 8:45 PM, Victor G. said:

Mistake! I'm from Athens, but interesting! I want to visit Corfu in the future, must be very nice!

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I'm sorry I read it wrong... yes my grandfather was from Corfu...

sailed on ships, was a radio operator..

 

[Aleitalyyy]

  On 12/23/2022 at 5:11 PM, Victor G. said:

Ah okay, I thought you were asking about the plant. Yeah it looks awesome!

For a few seconds, when I first saw it, I thought is was a coconut. Do we know when kentias produce seeds? Is it in late summer, like most trees?

(Rhodes is far away, but I'll keep that on mind, if I ever go there again)

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here is a kentia here in liguria that grows near where I live... as you can see it has nothing to do with the one in your photo on the island of rhodes... that's why i asked for some seeds... that kentia is spectacular ... if I had a kentia so I wouldn't waste any more efforts on the coconut...

[Victor G.]

  On 1/12/2023 at 3:18 PM, Aleitalyyy said:

here is a kentia here in liguria that grows near where I live... as you can see it has nothing to do with the one in your photo on the island of rhodes... that's why i asked for some seeds... that kentia is spectacular ... if I had a kentia so I wouldn't waste any more efforts on the coconut...

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I can see what you mean! If I ever visit again, I'll make sure to check for seeds!
BTW do we know when a kentia typically produces seeds? Is it in the end of the summer, like most plants?

[Aleitalyyy]

 

i think in october they are ready and ripe... that's usually the month... yes, that would be nice... i'll put you a picture of my latest newcomer.. a small bottle palm

[Jim in Los Altos]

  On 1/12/2023 at 3:29 PM, Victor G. said:

I can see what you mean! If I ever visit again, I'll make sure to check for seeds!
BTW do we know when a kentia typically produces seeds? Is it in the end of the summer, like most plants?

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It takes two years for Kentia fruit to ripen and they can ripen any time of the year. 

[Victor G.]

  On 1/12/2023 at 3:41 PM, Aleitalyyy said:

 

i think in october they are ready and ripe... that's usually the month... yes, that would be nice... i'll put you a picture of my latest newcomer.. a small bottle palm

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I want to grow a bottle palm too!
But they're very cold sensitive I think, right? Makes them hard to grow outside

[Victor G.]

  On 1/13/2023 at 5:38 AM, Jim in Los Altos said:

It takes two years for Kentia fruit to ripen and they can ripen any time of the year. 

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Thanks! I don't rememeber seeing any fruit on that kentia (even small ones), but I didn't look very closely

[Apostolos05]

I want to try to plant a kentia in athens but i am not pretty sure it will live ! The frost we get the last years makes it very difficult to survive! Although i will try it