Copernicia fetish in Miami

[LP305]

Took the plunge.

My first post in Palm Talk. Hope you enjoy it.

Shout out to Cindy Adair.

[ASHCVS]

Amazing collection of Cuban palms and incredible tile fountain!

 

And YES,  Cindy is richly deserving of a “shout out”  

 

[Darold Petty]

LP305, Welcome to Palmtalk !   

[Merlyn]

@LP305there's nothing wrong with a wee bit o' Copernicia fetish!    Welcome to Palmtalk!

Any idea what the purple-backed plant is on the first photo?  It looks like a Peace Lily (Spathiphyllum) but also doesn't.  Then I thought of the taller gingers like Stromanthe Sanguina.  But it doesn't quite look like a ginger either.  The side branching looks a bit like a tall one I have near my front door. 

Edit: I might have found it as Pleiostachya Pruinosa?

[LP305]

Thank you.

The purple plant is a relative of Calathea  - but from Africa. I bought it from Fairchild Garden. Forgot the name.

I want to post below a picture of my favorite individual Copernicia ( with my daughter underneath). It looks like a baileana but the number of divisions in the leaves are more than the usual baileana. Does anybody have any comments?

[LP305]

Thank you.

The purple plant is a relative of Calathea  - but from Africa. I bought it from Fairchild Garden. Forgot the name.

I want to post below a picture of my favorite individual Copernicia ( with my daughter underneath). It looks like a baileana but the number of divisions in the leaves are more than the usual baileana. Does anybody have any comments?

!!!!!Marantochloa mannii.

[Merlyn]

40 minutes ago, LP305 said:

Thank you.

The purple plant is a relative of Calathea  - but from Africa. I bought it from Fairchild Garden. Forgot the name.

I want to post below a picture of my favorite individual Copernicia ( with my daughter underneath). It looks like a baileana but the number of divisions in the leaves are more than the usual baileana. Does anybody have any comments?

!!!!!Marantochloa mannii.

Aha!  Yep I see it for sale now at Fairchild, thanks for the ID!  I posted another query in the "Tropical Plants" forum, but I guess that wasn't necessary! 

My guess on your palm is probably Fallaensis or a hybrid.  One way to tell them apart is:

• Baileyana have black teeth on the petiole, pointing upwards towards the fan. 
• Fallaensis have sort of "straw-colored" thorns.  I don't recall which direction they point.  I think they point towards the fan then hook back towards the trunk.
• Yarey has yellowish spines that point towards the trunk.

There are some people here with really good ID skills if you want to post a few close up photos.  Palmpedia is a good resource too: https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Copernicia_fallaensis

[LP305]

I have always suspected that it is a hybrid of fallaensis and baileana. 
The prominent Cuban palm specialist, Raúl Verdecia, visited my garden a few years ago and did not know what it was. 
If it were such  a hybrid, it would be a novel thing as no such hybrid has been described to date.

I will look carefully at the spines later.

Thanks.

 

[Cindy Adair]

Hi LP305!

Welcome to PalmTalk! 206 views already to your topic so lots of interest in Copernicias here!

I have visited his garden and neighborhood and both are amazing! 
 

Now that you see how easy it is to post (and how friendly the folks here are) I look forward to seeing photos of all of your treasures!

[Cindy Adair]

One of my favorite things about Palm Talk is the search engine!
 

I found lots of topics just now searching Copernicia hybrids, but this older one caught my eye with lots of photos and responses from folks who know way more than I do.

Lots of interesting palm information  especially useful when traveling.

If anyone reading this is an IPS member, but no icon near your username, be sure to private message Palm Mod and let him know so you can get extended search options!

[Frond-friend42]

Beautiful palms! Maybe the mystery Palm has some gigas in it. I thought the leaves look like that anyway.

[LP305]

The interesting question about hypothetical (and I described) Copernicia hybrids between baileana and fallaensis (or gigas) is WHERE physically it may have happened.

THEY do not grow close to each other in nature for that to happen. That is how they have managed to remain different species.

If you have ever visited the Botanical Garden in Havana you will notice that these disparate species were (trans)planted very close to each other.
So deductively  I believe that the seed of this beautiful hybrid-looking specimen was probably collected there, or maybe in Cienfuegos Botanical Garden.

Also, this specimen is over 15 years old so I doubt that it came from some flowering parental pair outside of Cuba, as the parents would have to be over 20 years old to flower. Which means that,improbably, the parents would have been planted close together in somebody’s garden almost 50 years ago! If you take this math into consideration you realize that the point of contact between the two species had to have taken place in some botanical garden in Cuba and no where else either in nature or some foreign botanical garden.

Sorry to sound so conspiratorial!🤣🤣🤣

 

[Elvis Cruz]

My goodness!

Such beautiful palms!  Such deductive reasoning!

Who is this mysterious LP305 person?

Whomever he may be,  thank you for the pretty pictures and postings.

[LP305]

I wear a mask and a cape when I guerrilla-garden these babies in front of neighbors’ houses!🤣🤣🤣😱

 

[Merlyn]

@LP305 it does seem like a botanical garden is a likely source.  Could the seed have come from Fairchild?  They have a lot of really tall Copernicia in that SW corner area, but I have no idea how long they've been there...or if they've ever sold Copernicia seed.   Apparently they were decent sized in 1977, so might have been collected from Cuba prior to the 1962 embargo.

 

[LP305]

Hi.

Fairchild’s only fallaensis started flowering about 3 years ago. In fact, I don’t think I have ever seen a gigas at Fairchild, especially with a trunk.

Thanks.

 

[LP305]

Copernicia fallaensis enjoying a day at the spa. This one has been in the ground almost 20 years. Not as blue as my other one. (To be pictured later).

Has flowered for third year but no viable seeds yet.🤞🌴

[Cindy Adair]

Gorgeous!
 

Hope yours makes seed before Fairchild’s!

[LP305]

The race is on. 
I want to be a Palm grandad.

[Josue Diaz]

Amazing copernicia and incredible coralstone planters!

[sonoranfans]

On 10/3/2022 at 8:26 AM, LP305 said:

Copernicia fallaensis enjoying a day at the spa. This one has been in the ground almost 20 years. Not as blue as my other one. (To be pictured later).

Has flowered for third year but no viable seeds yet.🤞🌴

magnificent palms, some of the best Fallaensis I have seen.  They have 2x the clear trunk of mine.  I do not envy you on the ladder, I will just let mine shed naturally.   Remember the blue color depends on the sun angle as the reflected light from a leaf is blue and transmitted light is green due to chlorophyll absorption.  The only downside is that as they grow tall the birds (and a drone) will see the most intense blue color!  

[Peter]

Beautiful Copernicia, and that's a helluva plumeria tree as well!

[LP305]

I have also discovered how useful dead Copernicia fronds are in hiding a chain link fence, or covering a neighbor’s intrusive night light pointing at your porch.

In Cuba they are used for thatching.

[bubba]

Wow! Thank you for posting. Regardless of hybrid, those Copernicia fallaensis are boldacious!

[LP305]

Who says totems must be of the animal kingdom?

[Kim]

Welcome to PalmTalk LP305! And it's about time 😉 considering your many years of involvement with palms. Off to a good start with those luscious Copernicia photos. Do visit again.

[Josue Diaz]

How I wish I could grow more of these. I tried Baileyana and it spotted and declined in our long, cool, wet winters. I do have prunifera though, and that one loves my Central California garden. 

[LP305]

C. Cowellii is supposed to de better in colder weather, but it is the slowest palm I have ever grown.

[FlaPalmLover]

Got a 15g copernicia fallaensis Tuesday. Looking forward to seeing how it does here in upper-mid 9b. Lots of healthy, mature bismarckia here, which seem comparably cold hardy, so I think it'll be fine. I'm planning on leaving it in a pot until February or March at least. 

[byuind]

4 hours ago, FlaPalmLover said:

Got a 15g copernicia fallaensis Tuesday. Looking forward to seeing how it does here in upper-mid 9b. Lots of healthy, mature bismarckia here, which seem comparably cold hardy, so I think it'll be fine. I'm planning on leaving it in a pot until February or March at least. 

I have been trying to find one for the last year. All the guys in North Florida want big bucks to bring even juveniles up from the south so its been a challenge.

i have a spot for one - i just need to get me hands on one.

 

where abouts are you in FL and what did you have to shell out for it?

[Steve the palmreader]

1 hour ago, byuind said:

I have been trying to find one for the last year. All the guys in North Florida want big bucks to bring even juveniles up from the south so its been a challenge.

i have a spot for one - i just need to get me hands on one.

 

where abouts are you in FL and what did you have to shell out for it?

Check with Premier growers on Pine Island

[SubTropicRay]

Laz, I know this is a Copernicia thread but the tall Pritchardia are pretty cool too! 

[sonoranfans]

3 hours ago, byuind said:

I have been trying to find one for the last year. All the guys in North Florida want big bucks to bring even juveniles up from the south so its been a challenge.

i have a spot for one - i just need to get me hands on one.

 

where abouts are you in FL and what did you have to shell out for it?

Copernicias are very slow when small so it takes a while to grow even a 15 gallon size.  Thats why you will never see one at a big box store and why most nurseries dont carry them..  If a grower has 10 years in a palm what is that worth?  People compare to a fast growing palm like a royal and they are expensive, but time/care/soil changes feeding all cost money.  As they get bigger, there is a risk of root damage in digging and transport.  Only the most skilled nurserymen can handle them.  Some palms they dig a small root ball and cut the leaves off and carry them like logs.  Copernicias can be killed or have significant setbacks they may never fully recover from.   They also have big heavy rootballs for their size above the soil.   I bought a juvenile  9-10' overall fallensis 12 years ago and it cost $450 just to rent a 2500 lb bobcat needed to take it off the truck and put it in the planting hole.   None of that included the digging and root pruning the palm or transport from homestead area..  Ken Johnson, decades of experience/expertise in all this, planted it for me to make sure the roots were handled expertly.   There is a reason they are expensive, 1) they take a long time to grow from seed, 2) they are difficult to handle at anything over 15 gallon size and redlands wouldnt ship anything bigger than a 4" pot due to potential for shipping damage/mortality.  3) they are rare and part of that is they are only native to cuba and take a long time to seed and the other part is that since they take so long to grow when small, nurseries wont carry them.                                  

[FlaPalmLover]

6 hours ago, byuind said:

I have been trying to find one for the last year. All the guys in North Florida want big bucks to bring even juveniles up from the south so its been a challenge.

i have a spot for one - i just need to get me hands on one.

 

where abouts are you in FL and what did you have to shell out for it?

I’m in Deltona. I got mine from a place called Caribbean Palms Nursery in Loxahatchee, FL. It was $300. But as sonoranfans pointed out, they take a while to grow from seed. I believe he said mine was 7 years old already. But he had smaller ones for $100 or less I believe - I will check on that and message you if you’d be interested in driving there.

My main concern with planting mine is going to be somehow preserving the existing roots while possibly looking to amend or improve the soil currently in the pot it’s in. As I understand it they like to be in soil that retains moisture well, so I was thinking of planting some peat moss around it or something like that. But if anyone has ideas I’m all ears. 

[sonoranfans]

54 minutes ago, FlaPalmLover said:

I’m in Deltona. I got mine from a place called Caribbean Palms Nursery in Loxahatchee, FL. It was $300. But as sonoranfans pointed out, they take a while to grow from seed. I believe he said mine was 7 years old already. But he had smaller ones for $100 or less I believe - I will check on that and message you if you’d be interested in driving there.

My main concern with planting mine is going to be somehow preserving the existing roots while possibly looking to amend or improve the soil currently in the pot it’s in. As I understand it they like to be in soil that retains moisture well, so I was thinking of planting some peat moss around it or something like that. But if anyone has ideas I’m all ears. 

They are best in full florida sun, fastest and happiest in sun.  If you have sandy soil get 100 lbs of turface MVP since it holds water but will not decompose to nothing in soil over time.  I had clay plus sand and just dug the hole deep and used a little more sand in the sand clay mix under it for drainage.   I did put some garden soil added to the soil mix but not for the mix under the rootball as this will cause the palm to sink as the organics are digested over a couple years.  The better drainage helps grow deep roots that improve drought tolerance, the clay holds water and cations.  l also have added ~ 100lb dolomiite and/or crushed coral around the base to make the soil slightly alkaline.  If your soil is already high in limestone rock or coral I would use just top mulch.  The problem with adding peat moss in florida is that with our heat and rains it dissolves and you are left with soil that doesnt hold moisture over time.  Cuban copernicias are also heavy feeders and susceptible to potassium deficiency which will happen with low cation exchange soil (sand has zero cation exchange).  So consider what your soil is, I just would not add peat to sandy soil without clay.  The turface mvp is sintered clay and not only has high cation exchange and moisture retention but improves drainage..  Fertilizer should be a controlled release if you are in high drainage soil.  If you are not going to use a premium fertilizer in high drainage soil, I recommend that you dont try to grow a cuban copernicia, avoid the frustration.   Sounds like they are expensive and require effort to grow and that is correct.  But the silver lining is that they are self shedding so paying a guy with a bucket truck  or ladder will not be part of care.  Considering up keep of a big palm, there are many more expensive palms in the long run.  My neighbors pay landscapers to trim their sabal palmettos and phoenix (CIDP, sylvestris etc) every year which after 10 years cost them more than my C. fallaensis.  

 

[byuind]

5 hours ago, FlaPalmLover said:

I’m in Deltona. I got mine from a place called Caribbean Palms Nursery in Loxahatchee, FL. It was $300. But as sonoranfans pointed out, they take a while to grow from seed. I believe he said mine was 7 years old already. But he had smaller ones for $100 or less I believe - I will check on that and message you if you’d be interested in driving there.

My main concern with planting mine is going to be somehow preserving the existing roots while possibly looking to amend or improve the soil currently in the pot it’s in. As I understand it they like to be in soil that retains moisture well, so I was thinking of planting some peat moss around it or something like that. But if anyone has ideas I’m all ears. 

That would be awesome. Deltona isnt so far away that it cant be driven!

[FlaPalmLover]

6 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

They are best in full florida sun, fastest and happiest in sun.  If you have sandy soil get 100 lbs of turface MVP since it holds water but will not decompose to nothing in soil over time.  I had clay plus sand and just dug the hole deep and used a little more sand in the sand clay mix under it for drainage.   I did put some garden soil added to the soil mix but not for the mix under the rootball as this will cause the palm to sink as the organics are digested over a couple years.  The better drainage helps grow deep roots that improve drought tolerance, the clay holds water and cations.  l also have added ~ 100lb dolomiite and/or crushed coral around the base to make the soil slightly alkaline.  If your soil is already high in limestone rock or coral I would use just top mulch.  The problem with adding peat moss in florida is that with our heat and rains it dissolves and you are left with soil that doesnt hold moisture over time.  Cuban copernicias are also heavy feeders and susceptible to potassium deficiency which will happen with low cation exchange soil (sand has zero cation exchange).  So consider what your soil is, I just would not add peat to sandy soil without clay.  The turface mvp is sintered clay and not only has high cation exchange and moisture retention but improves drainage..  Fertilizer should be a controlled release if you are in high drainage soil.  If you are not going to use a premium fertilizer in high drainage soil, I recommend that you dont try to grow a cuban copernicia, avoid the frustration.   Sounds like they are expensive and require effort to grow and that is correct.  But the silver lining is that they are self shedding so paying a guy with a bucket truck  or ladder will not be part of care.  Considering up keep of a big palm, there are many more expensive palms in the long run.  My neighbors pay landscapers to trim their sabal palmettos and phoenix (CIDP, sylvestris etc) every year which after 10 years cost them more than my C. fallaensis.  

 

A lot of this went over my head but thank you. I had not heard of the phrase "cation exchange," but I will look into that and try to ensure I maximize that with the fallaensis. My soil is very dark, so I don't know what that might mean for what I should do/what might be helpful. I purposely have mine in one of the best spots for sun exposure right now. 

I feel like there needs to be a nickname for copernicia fallaensis. I saw Giant Yarey palm somewhere on google but I don't know if that's caught on much.

Edited November 11, 2023 by FlaPalmLover

[FlaPalmLover]

2 hours ago, byuind said:

That would be awesome. Deltona isnt so far away that it cant be driven!

Oh, I meant I could send you the prices of the smaller ones he had if you'd be interested in driving down to Loxahatchee to get some. I'm not sure how much they were asking at any of the nurseries you were referring to. Possibly if I happened to be headed down that way some day I could message you on here and work something out for you to meet and reimburse me. 😂 But his smaller ones were around 1-3 gallons. Also, I think MB Palms in Orlando had some copernicias listed on their website, but I couldn't speak to the genetic integrity of those, etc. The guy I bought from went to Cuba to get the seed so his are pretty legitimate.

Edited November 11, 2023 by FlaPalmLover

[sonoranfans]

14 hours ago, FlaPalmLover said:

A lot of this went over my head but thank you. I had not heard of the phrase "cation exchange," but I will look into that and try to ensure I maximize that with the fallaensis. My soil is very dark, so I don't know what that might mean for what I should do/what might be helpful. I purposely have mine in one of the best spots for sun exposure right now. 

I feel like there needs to be a nickname for copernicia fallaensis. I saw Giant Yarey palm somewhere on google but I don't know if that's caught on much.

Many micronutrients are cations and the soil with cation exchange stores them for later release in time.  Of critical importance  for looking their best, you want K or potassium available consistently over time.  If your soil has not cation exchange the micronutrients will not persist in the soil for any time, they get washed away.  Dark soil sounds like lots of organic, might need to add turface MVP, sand and clay and if the drainage is really poor or the soil smells(not oxygenated) I would use 15 % perlite as it will assure oxygen in the soil.  Perlite doe not really add much cation exchange but its compressible texture prevents soil compaction and improves drainage.  But if you dont have much sand and drainage is slow, I'd first get the sand.  Better yet research the soil type in your area.  The best soil ammendment for your area will depend on what you start with.

[sonoranfans]

Copernicias remind me of the water, water reflects the sky and different lighting conditions can change the appearance.  If you have a blue tinted copernicia, it will look most blue with the sun at your back, low in the sky.  They also can change color some year to year, as the plant produces differing amounts of wax.  Less wax means more photosynthesis due to less reflected light.  So winter time and or recoivering from hurrican damage appearsed to be more grey green than blue.  More wax and sunlight at the back gives a more bluish view.  The uplifting ambiance created by these palms extends after dusk.  Some of my favorite baileyana(left) and fallaensis(right) views are just after sundown.