B. Alfredii experiment

[Super Minion]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here on palmtalk. My favorite palm is b. Alfredii. This is a report dedicated on how the B. Alfredii reacts to the cool climate of Northern Europe.

I live in Rotterdam, Netherlands which is hardiness zone 8 in Europe. The average anual extreme minimum here is -10 Celsius (14 Fahrenheit) for the last 5 winters.

 

 

[Super Minion]

I bought the Alfredii as a seedling. The plants have produced 2 leaves this summer.

I have 4 plants in total.

The first picture is May 2022 and the second picture is august 2022. Next year I will give an update about the plant. This year I will keep them in their pots and keep them indoors if temperature drops to freezing. 

Next year I will put them in full ground.

[enigma99]

Interesting to see if you can keep it warm on your freeze events

Edited August 17, 2022 by enigma99

[Meangreen94z]

I think once they hit trunking size hardiness increases, but exposure to a hard frost killed my 3 gallon size. Maybe slightly bigger than yours. I would just protect them all winter when in ground.

[VA Jeff]

Good luck, but I give it zero chance of surviving it's first winter outside without some major protection.  Around -4C will kill some/ most adult alfrediis.  Seedlings would suffer around -1C, I'd guess.  I think you'd have difficulty with jubaea, but at least it might stand a chance in your climate.  Although jubaea is painfully slow, they are very attractive.  Parajubaea torallyi is similar looking to B alfredii, but has more cold and cool tolerance, which is what you need.

[Super Minion]

10 minutes ago, VA Jeff said:

Good luck, but I give it zero chance of surviving it's first winter outside without some major protection.  Around -4C will kill some/ most adult alfrediis.  Seedlings would suffer around -1C, I'd guess.  I think you'd have difficulty with jubaea, but at least it might stand a chance in your climate.  Although jubaea is painfully slow, they are very attractive.  Parajubaea torallyi is similar looking to B alfredii, but has more cold and cool tolerance, which is what you need.

Thanks For the reply, I agree with you on the fact that I have my doubts. The first few years I will definitely protect them on the hardest nights with Christmas lights and wind protection. I think the odds are low but I really like to experiment and see how big I can get this tree and how cold tolerant it can be when it gets bigger. The seller told me that these specific plants currently were lab tested to withstand-3 Celsius or 27 Fahrenheit. 

[Super Minion]

4 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

I think once they hit trunking size hardiness increases, but exposure to a hard frost killed my 3 gallon size. Maybe slightly bigger than yours. I would just protect them all winter when in ground.

Thanks for the info. 3 gallons is still small I think if the roots system is exposed via the thin layer of the container that seperates it from the freezing air.

[Foxpalms]

I could try one here since I have 3, cold isn't really a concern for me it's can this palm survive long cool winters max between 9-10c and average low of 5c. Would the palm slowly die or would it just go dormant for the winter and start regrowing when the temperatures warm like syagrus? I've also heard frost is more damaging to this palm than cold. I'm in 9b

Edited August 19, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Super Minion]

On 8/19/2022 at 2:51 AM, Foxpalms said:

I could try one here since I have 3, cold isn't really a concern for me it's can this palm survive long cool winters max between 9-10c and average low of 5c. Would the palm slowly die or would it just go dormant for the winter and start regrowing when the temperatures warm like syagrus? I've also heard frost is more damaging to this palm than cold. I'm in 9b

Interesting to hear. Winters here are very mild for the northern position of my country (52 degrees).

However I would say the the biggest part of winter here is cool and not freezing. That is also the main reason I want to give this experiment a shot.

The point you highlight about frost is what has me concerned. It sometimes gets real ugly in terms of freezing but this does not last very long(Max like 5 days). After that it can be followed by weeks of cool weather about +5 +10 degrees celcius in the middle of January. 

[Foxpalms]

22 minutes ago, Super Minion said:

Interesting to hear. Winters here are very mild for the northern position of my country (52 degrees).

However I would say the the biggest part of winter here is cool and not freezing. That is also the main reason I want to give this experiment a shot.

The point you highlight about frost is what has me concerned. It sometimes gets real ugly in terms of freezing but this does not last very long(Max like 5 days). After that it can be followed by weeks of cool weather about +5 +10 degrees celcius in the middle of January. 

Is that 5 days of frost in a row or below freezing for 5 days without going above freezing? Always goes above freezing here after a frost. Coldest night of the year will range from 0c to -3c here. I was thinking of trying one unprotected but it's more the cool weather I'm concerned about because if I place it under canopy it will likely only see between 1c to -1c on an average winter and it would reduce the frost. Would be helpful if anyone knew the coolest place these can grow in to see if they would even stand a chance. My latitude is 51n

Edited August 21, 2022 by Foxpalms

[Foxpalms]

I think there are some in San Francisco while their winters are quite a bit warmer if they can be grown in san Franciscos cooler summer climate than London's that is good news because I thought this palm needs lots of heat so against a brick wall it might grow nicely in summer. We are not going through a heatwave currently just around average summer weather and San Francisco is significantly cooler. Top is San Francisco bottom is London, the night temperatures have also been warmer than the forecast every single day here.

[D Palm]

I had 2 that died after dips below 25F. 
 

Good luck!

[Foxpalms]

1 hour ago, D Palm said:

I had 2 that died after dips below 25F. 
 

Good luck!

Seedling or mature palm? Were they under canopy or exposed? 

[Super Minion]

12 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Is that 5 days of frost in a row or below freezing for 5 days without going above freezing? Always goes above freezing here after a frost. Coldest night of the year will range from 0c to -3c here. I was thinking of trying one unprotected but it's more the cool weather I'm concerned about because if I place it under canopy it will likely only see between 1c to -1c on an average winter and it would reduce the frost. Would be helpful if anyone knew the coolest place these can grow in to see if they would even stand a chance. My latitude is 51n

On a “cold wave” it freezes to -7 celcius and then during the day it gets around +4 celcius if it is sunny. Maybe 1 or 2 days per year where temperature stays below freezing during the day. 
Having said that I will use winter protection in the first few years. Hopefully it will adapt once it’s gets bigger.

[Super Minion]

Hi fellow Palm enthusiast,

Winter is ending here in northwest Europe. Put all my ladies outside again. Even my cocos nucifera I put outside during the day. The rest of my palms i also leave outside at night. I am talking 1 x J. Chilensis, 2 x P dactylifera, 7 x B. Alfredii and 2 x C Parvifrons 
 

Current weather:

-Daytime 8-11 degrees Celsius and sunny.

-Nighttime 1-7 celcius.

 

can not wait for summertime 

 

 

[ShiYi2022]

I also like this kind of palm very much. I'm not sure how cold it is. Maybe it should be potted and then tested outdoors (that might be a better idea). My other worry is that this kind of palm is not easy to buy here, so I'm worried that I can't buy it any more. At present, I only have one (slightly larger than yours). It is true how happy it is for people in non-tropical areas to find a cold-resistant palm.

[Plantasexoticas]

Your palms are looking good!
 

Beccariophoenix is one of my favourites too (though a relatively new one to my collections) 

Will be interesting to see how you get on with yours. Having juveniles/growing from seed allows a lot more scope for experimenting and I think (at least it seems that way to me) that exposure early on gets you hardier plants (to an extent) 

James

[Axel Amsterdam]

On 8/22/2022 at 2:35 PM, Super Minion said:

On a “cold wave” it freezes to -7 celcius and then during the day it gets around +4 celcius if it is sunny. Maybe 1 or 2 days per year where temperature stays below freezing during the day. 
Having said that I will use winter protection in the first few years. Hopefully it will adapt once it’s gets bigger.

I am interested to follow your experience but you will need to protect very seriously with warmth and some construction around it during colder periods.  I hope you will succeed because its something special to grow these in our climate.

Btw do you know any nteresting palms in Rotterdam apart from trachies and chamaerops? I recently posted a picture of a large washingtonia in the Hague but so far i have never seen one in Rotterdam. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Axel Amsterdam

[Arecaceus]

Good luck! I've also thought about trying it someday. Will be interesting how yours will fare.

[psy460]

i'm interested to see how it goes after 4month under 15°C 

[Foxpalms]

1 hour ago, psy460 said:

i'm interested to see how it goes after 4month under 15°C 

They are fine under 15c for long periods of time. My potted one is outside.

[Scott W]

I have three in the ground and a few hundred seedlings growing in small containers here in NE Florida.  

We had a two day spell of severe cold weather at the end of December, with my recorded lows around 26F.  Due to my work schedule at the time I had no time to cover anything to protect it.  The three in the ground all suffered spear pull, many seedlings perished and many more suffered spear pull as well.  Time will tell if these survive or not.

[kinzyjr]

48 minutes ago, Scott W said:

I have three in the ground and a few hundred seedlings growing in small containers here in NE Florida.  

We had a two day spell of severe cold weather at the end of December, with my recorded lows around 26F.  Due to my work schedule at the time I had no time to cover anything to protect it.  The three in the ground all suffered spear pull, many seedlings perished and many more suffered spear pull as well.  Time will tell if these survive or not.

Hope a few pull through for you.

[ChicagoPalma]

1 hour ago, Scott W said:

I have three in the ground and a few hundred seedlings growing in small containers here in NE Florida.  

We had a two day spell of severe cold weather at the end of December, with my recorded lows around 26F.  Due to my work schedule at the time I had no time to cover anything to protect it.  The three in the ground all suffered spear pull, many seedlings perished and many more suffered spear pull as well.  Time will tell if these survive or not.

Good luck and hope they all survive. 

[ChicagoPalma]

On 2/15/2023 at 8:08 PM, Super Minion said:

Hi fellow Palm enthusiast,

Winter is ending here in northwest Europe. Put all my ladies outside again. Even my cocos nucifera I put outside during the day. The rest of my palms i also leave outside at night. I am talking 1 x J. Chilensis, 2 x P dactylifera, 7 x B. Alfredii and 2 x C Parvifrons 
 

Current weather:

-Daytime 8-11 degrees Celsius and sunny.

-Nighttime 1-7 celcius.

 

can not wait for summertime 

 

 

Very nice palms you have, I have been looking for coconut looking palms that are cold hardy, best there is a mule palm but the high plateau coconut interests me. I’m a bit curious how it will look and grow when planted in the ground (if you are planting).

[Rain52]

These have been in the ground for a while  6 years plus and were not affected by the 2022 Xmas freeze. Jax beach. 

[Scott W]

10 minutes ago, Rain52 said:

These have been in the ground for a while  6 years plus and were not affected by the 2022 Xmas freeze. Jax beach. 

Those are simply gorgeous 😍 

[ChicagoPalma]

On 10/25/2024 at 4:33 PM, Rain52 said:

These have been in the ground for a while  6 years plus and were not affected by the 2022 Xmas freeze. Jax beach. 

Divine appearance. Now that is something I would wish to have.

[Foxpalms]

On 10/25/2024 at 10:33 PM, Rain52 said:

These have been in the ground for a while  6 years plus and were not affected by the 2022 Xmas freeze. Jax beach. 

In London I have some potted ones against the house wall. In Jan 2023 it got to 28f probably slightly warmer against the house wall maybe 29.5f but the day temps only rose to around 35-36ish. Possibly 1f or so warmer against that wall. One thing I can say is they are very cool tolerant and will survive here with long cool winters but mild freezes. They aren't too slow growing either here even in pots, at least compared to something like Chambeyronia macrocarpa or jubaeopsis caffra that are in the ground.

[Jonathan]

On 11/3/2024 at 10:42 AM, Foxpalms said:

In London I have some potted ones against the house wall. In Jan 2023 it got to 28f probably slightly warmer against the house wall maybe 29.5f but the day temps only rose to around 35-36ish. Possibly 1f or so warmer against that wall. One thing I can say is they are very cool tolerant and will survive here with long cool winters but mild freezes. They aren't too slow growing either here even in pots, at least compared to something like Chambeyronia macrocarpa or jubaeopsis caffra that are in the ground.

Chambeyronia macrocarpa in the ground in London? Have you had long term, ie 5 or 10 years, success with any other crownshafted palms, Archontophoenix, Rhopalostylis, etc? Do Howeas grow there? Any pics?

[Axel Amsterdam]

On 11/7/2024 at 10:09 PM, Jonathan said:

Chambeyronia macrocarpa in the ground in London? Have you had long term, ie 5 or 10 years, success with any other crownshafted palms, Archontophoenix, Rhopalostylis, etc? Do Howeas grow there? Any pics?

This is the bangalow 2 years ago

And the beccariophoenix around the size of the OP

 

 

 

[Foxpalms]

On 11/7/2024 at 9:09 PM, Jonathan said:

Chambeyronia macrocarpa in the ground in London? Have you had long term, ie 5 or 10 years, success with any other crownshafted palms, Archontophoenix, Rhopalostylis, etc? Do Howeas grow there? Any pics?

Not home, in Brighton Uk at the moment but here's a recent photo of one of the palms Archontophoenix c illawara and a a howea belmoreana. Damage is sunburn. Despite the Archontophoenix being outside for years. The new leaves it pushes out in spring seem to get sunburnt every year then the next ones are more acclimated to the sun. Every year that cycle repeats.

[Than]

On 10/26/2024 at 12:33 AM, Rain52 said:

These have been in the ground for a while  6 years plus and were not affected by the 2022 Xmas freeze. Jax beach. 

Are these mule palms?

[Jonathan]

2 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

Not home, in Brighton Uk at the moment but here's a recent photo of one of the palms Archontophoenix c illawara and a a howea belmoreana. Damage is sunburn. Despite the Archontophoenix being outside for years. The new leaves it pushes out in spring seem to get sunburnt every year then the next ones are more acclimated to the sun. Every year that cycle repeats.

Nah, that doesn’t make any sense at all....any palm that is capable of full sun growth, and Bangalows absolutely are, will not get sunburn on their new leaves once they are adjusted, particularly not in a cool temperate climate like yours or mine. They will certainly burn badly if planted in full sun from shade, or greenhouse conditions but the next leaves should adapt to the sun.

There's something else at play here. Wind burn or cold both produce similar damage.

My guess is cold damage to the unopened spear during winter, which then appears sunburnt when it opens. The plant then pushes out a new leaf which looks better but has used up too much of its energy reserves to recover sufficiently prior to the next winter...then the cycle repeats. 

Or it might just be a dodgy palm.

[Rain52]

On 11/12/2024 at 2:16 PM, Than said:

Are these mule palms?

High plateau coconuts 

[Than]

3 hours ago, Rain52 said:

High plateau coconuts 

OK I googled it. That's Beccariophoenix alfredii. Thanks!