Chambeyronia Macrocarpa toast?

[eacdmd86]

I posted in another members thread who was having sunburn on his flamethrower palm. Mine was also, suspecting from lack of water and the brutal Florida summer sun.

It was suggested to relocate or put a shade cloth over it. It's prominently in front of my house, so the shade cloth wasn't an option and I have no where else to put it.  It's either going to make it or not.

It has a healthy spear that is huge and only grown 2mm in the last month and a new spear that is growing (see pic of lines).

However, the oldest leaf turned brown a couple weeks ago along with the Browning travelling down the little bit of trunk it has.  Then the second oldest sunburned leaf just turned brown completely this week while I was at work.

I came home and noticed an indent in the trunk where the oldest leaf is still hanging on. It's a bit soft and spongy to my thumb.  If anything I was thinking this palm wasn't getting enough water, yet this makes me think it has rot? Other side of the palm trunk looks fine.  New spear leaf does have some necrosis spots.

Should I give up on this one?

 

[aztropic]

YES! It's done. When you see the trunk collapsing like that,it is already decaying internally...

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[eacdmd86]

What's the cause do you think?

 

I pulled of the most dead leaf and it doesn't look good underneath.

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by eacdmd86

[Merlyn]

Any squishy spot like that is probably a trunk rot like Thielaviopsis.  That's what happened to an Adonidia triple that I had at the front of my house.  It survived a 30F frost sorta okay, but then just slowly declined over the summer.  This is what the trunk looked like inside...

[aztropic]

15 minutes ago, eacdmd86 said:

What's the cause do you think?

 

I pulled of the most dead leaf and it doesn't look good underneath.

 

If I had to guess on the initial cause,I would say sunburn - especially if the burned area is facing west or southwest. A freeze could also cause the same damage randomly...

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[eacdmd86]

Yes, burned area is due west.  That's a bummer.  It did get very cold one day this winter.  I wrapped up the palm along with some others for the night.  Figured we escaped, but maybe that played a role.

 

So not a great idea to replace the palm with the same one in the same spot unless I get one that's grown in the sun?

Edited July 29, 2022 by eacdmd86

[aztropic]

If that spot was too hot for that species,you will need to alter the area by putting up something to the west that will block the afternoon sun striking the replacement palms base before trying another. Maybe a tall bush or some garden art. A larger specimen, where the bottom foot of trunk has already hardened off (brown) might work too. Probably should just switch to a more sun tolerant species as a permanent fix.

 

aztropic 

Mesa,Arizona

[Merlyn]

I'd dig out the rootball and palm in one chunk and dispose of it.  Whatever fungus that's in the trunk is probably in the soil too, so dispose of a good chunk of soil and don't try to reuse it.  My *guess* is that you could plant a more sun-tolerant small palm there and it would be okay.  There's always a risk that a fungus will attack any new planting.  Full sun possibilities for that spot are Copernicia Macroglossa (if you like that style); maybe some of the smaller big-leaf Dypsis like Lanceolata or Pembana; one of the smaller fan palms like Coccothrinax Argentata, Argentea, Barbadensis; or a clustering palm with tiny fans like Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii.  You *might* get away with the funky leaf Dypsis Rosea, supposedly they can take a lot of sun...and they have red emergent leaves!

My personal opinion is that a flamethrower isn't ever going to be happy there.  You might be able to make one survive if you grow it in full sun from a 3g palm, maybe.  But chances are it's going to be burned.  Get it?  See what I did there?  Burned?  Flamethrower? 

[96720]

Tha problem with chambyronia is they are so slow growing that they have a hard time recovering from damage!!!

[eacdmd86]

I had a feeling it was toast as soon as I saw the side caved in.  I think that palm has struggled since I planted it.  In fact, I don't think I did a good job planting it at all, and probably had an air pocket underneath it.  I will remove it and excavate some of the soil around it.  I would really love to see if I can get one to take, because it would look fire  there throwing a red leaf.

Don't flame me  for this, but I got another one.  My wife and I were off today, so we decided to take a trip back down south to Homestead to where I originally got the flamethrower, since they have a ton of them and they seem reasonable at $75.  However, this time, we took our time picking the palm.  The last one was growing on the east side of the row and had some shading from some larger palms above and didn't deal with the afternoon sun nearly as much.  This one we found is just beginning to throw a red leaf and was growing on the west side of the row in the beating sun.  We were there at 3pm, so no better time to judge its exposure. 

I might get burned  for trying again, but maybe I chose a better pre-acclimated palm for this spot.  The Home Depot near us has small potted bougainvilleas with a trellis that I think could sit potted by the wall to provide a little shade relief to the trunk.

That's the best I got for the puns.

 

Edit: side note...the palm has it's own sprinkler that hits it on the same side as where you see the rot.  I had a similar Thielaviopsis issue with a triangle palm that got a direct shot from a sprinkler.  I could probably swap it for a drip connection.

Edited July 30, 2022 by eacdmd86

[Merlyn]

I haven't had enough coffee yet to come up with my own fire puns this morning, don't flame me for it!    Your plan sounds like a good one, picking one that's already been in hot PM sun and changing out the sprinkler.  Honestly I think the sprinkler is the key here, trunk rot is a common occurrence for palms hit by sprinklers.  I'd get one of those $10 drip conversion heads for it, and use either individual button drippers or the small fans-on-a-stick.  I use mostly button drippers, but my setup is based on giving just enough water to avoid drought damage and not enough for "ideal growth."  I'd probably put 2x 0.5gph drippers running 45min/day on a flame there, or maybe 2x 1gph for 30 minutes.  That ends up being around 0.75-1 gallon of water per day.  I don't know if that's "optimal" or not, but my flame triple in my nursery area tolerates having 3x fan sprayers-on-a-stick in the area for 30 minutes/day.  They are showing some leaf signs of iron deficiency, so it's probably on the upper limit of what they want.

I like the idea of the Bougainvillea trellis, they are easy to train into a specific coverage area.  And if you are careful the thorns aren't that annoying.

[Kim]

I was reading through this thread and thinking "sprinkler hitting trunk?" Definitely change that out to a bubbler if you can. Drip also good, but I think a bubbler does better water distribution if you sort of have a swale around the palm. Also, keep the mulch off the trunk -- move it an inch away, but keep it covering the soil. 

[Looking Glass]

I’ve found these to be very sun sensitive in our area in the 3-7 gallon size.  Mine get a fair blast of sun, but I’ve tried to shield them from true full sun, using other palms for cover.  They still get a little toasty where over exposed.   Even in the ground, my three are slooooow, so damage is very long lasting.  I can’t comment on adults, but the youngish ones seem a bit sensitive and temperamental in rough conditions.  

(hard to see these days) 

[eacdmd86]

Here's the new one. The oldest frond has some slight burn, but not surprising because it was in full sun when we picked it up.  Same price as the previous and this one is a bit bigger.

 

 

 

Will definitely change out the sprinkler head for something drip/bubble style. I already did that for some potted palms I have in the backyard.  It's great because they water with the rest of the yard on the sprinkler system, which makes things easier.

 

I have a young one that stays in the shade. It burned one leaf to a crisp that got sun part of the day.  Now it stays tucked away.

Edited July 30, 2022 by eacdmd86

[eacdmd86]

Well I took the old one out and planted the new one. The previous Macrocarpa lifted right out of the ground without much trouble, as though I had planted it yesterday.  It didn't root much at all.

Dug out a good extra 8 inches around and below and filled the bottom with composted manure as per growers instructions. Flooded the area and placed the palm. That thing is heavy!  Kept it flooded as we filled the sides.  Should be no air pockets.

Let's see how this guy does.

 

[Fishinsteeg234]

Keep us updated 

[3 Milesfrom Gulf of Mexico]

Looks great.  Keep watering! They are like straws.  Mine gets watered everyday from well water.   The leaves turn a dark green the more water it gets.

[Looking Glass]

21 hours ago, eacdmd86 said:

Well I took the old one out and planted the new one. The previous Macrocarpa lifted right out of the ground without much trouble, as though I had planted it yesterday.  It didn't root much at all.

Dug out a good extra 8 inches around and below and filled the bottom with composted manure as per growers instructions. Flooded the area and placed the palm. That thing is heavy!  Kept it flooded as we filled the sides.  Should be no air pockets.

Let's see how this guy does.

Best of luck!  Hope it takes.  If it burns, that open spot looks like prime real estate for a sun lover.   Pseudophoenix Sargentii, coccothrinax miriguama, Copernicia Hospita, Dictyosperma album var conjugatum, Lantania loddgesii, even a bottle or spindle palm would all be pretty happy there I bet.  A Chambeyronia oliviformis would handle sun a bit better also if it’s problematic again.  
 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Looking Glass

[EPaul]

In Fort Lauderdale, having lived there for years, I can say 100% it's not your cold - you don't get nearly cold enough for this palm to die as Chambeyronia Macrocarpas are quite cold tolerant and you're a solid 10B zone.  Growing these here in Orlando, and experimenting, these palms do NOT like full Florida sun for more than a few hours a day when that size.  They do very well under tree canopy, which also gives them a nice winter microclimate.  

[eacdmd86]

You are probably right. And I may have to move it this weekend. I think I found a good alternative spot for it that is more shaded. As of now, it's getting 10am to 5pm of sun.  A couple leaflets appear to possibly be burning already. Not sure if it can happen that fast in 2 days?

Plumbed in bubblers to avoid the sprinkler shot, but that's easy to move/remove.

Question for the group: I noticed this grey/black stuff on the underside of the struggling leaflets along the middle rib.  What is this? I can rub it off, but some of it is stuck on there pretty good. Is this some sort of a bug?

Edited August 3, 2022 by eacdmd86

[Looking Glass]

5 hours ago, eacdmd86 said:

You are probably right. And I may have to move it this weekend. I think I found a good alternative spot for it that is more shaded. As of now, it's getting 10am to 5pm of sun.  A couple leaflets appear to possibly be burning already. Not sure if it can happen that fast in 2 days?

Plumbed in bubblers to avoid the sprinkler shot, but that's easy to move/remove.

Question for the group: I noticed this grey/black stuff on the underside of the struggling leaflets along the middle rib.  What is this? I can rub it off, but some of it is stuck on there pretty good. Is this some sort of a bug?

I can’t see great from the picks, but I’d bet it’s some kind of connective tissue left over from when it was a spear.  Various palm leaflets have stuff that looks like that here.  I’ll check my hookerii tomorrow to compare.  

That’s a nice palm you’ve got.   The sun is blistering here this time of year, especially as clear and dry as it’s been lately.   Can burn a palm in a day easily, depending on the palm.   I’ve conducted many verification trials…. unfortunately.  

Great spot though.  Put in a sun lover and it will be happy as a clam there.  That concrete and stone will keep it toasty warm.  There are many great options.  

Your macrocarpa will be super happy too, but with some shade.   

[EPaul]

@eacdmd86 - It absolutely can happen in 2 days.  I've had sunburn show in less than 24 hours.  10 AM to 5 PM 10B Florida Sun is WAY too much sun in my opinion.  I'd move that ASAP before additional damage occurs.  Just for reference, mine get about 2 hours of 9B Florida, direct sun a day.  Best of luck with it and keep us posted in the long run

Edited August 3, 2022 by EPaul

[sonoranfans]

I think that spot is definitely not a good spot for a broad leaflet palm like c. macrocarpa.  Bright florida sun and masonry to re radiate heat close in, is like a perfect storm.  Those broad leaves will lose lots of water in transpiration and the heating of the concrete/stone will increase and prolong the heat duration every day.  This is a palm that doesnt want more than a few hours direct sun in florida.  Hookeri might be a bit better as its leaflets are narrower, but I still expect it to not be a good one for that spot.  Options stated above are all good, sargentii is appropriate size(width) wise, its a small spot.  Masonry works around small palms, but mostly just in the shade.  Radiant heat can dessicate and at some level that can lead to bad sunburn.

[Merlyn]

@sonoranfans that's a good point on local temperature and dessication rate.  Sunny and high temps and radiated heat from the nearby pavement and walls makes it worse.  And the reflective concrete and walls also increase the heat/sunlight/dessication rate. 

I had a Macrocarpa in full blazing sun in my backyard in Orlando, and it did fine initially.  I just looked it up in my spreadsheet, and I planted it in November 2020.  It did awesome in the cooler temperatures and lower sun intensity, but got frost torched a couple of months later and died.  So I don't know if it could actually handle summer sun or not...

My front yard experiments were more successful, but they were in full AM sun but shaded by around 2PM.  These were Hookeri and about the same size as @eacdmd86's palm.  Both had a little bit of sunburn but nothing significant.  I planted them in May 2021 and August 2021 and were fine until 27-28F with frost = D-E-D.

I have a triple Macrocarpa/Hookeri/Watermelon in full summer shade and it's doing great.  It gets a lot of direct sun in November-March and doesn't seem to mind.  It's now 3 years in the ground and 4-5 feet tall.  I have 3 seedlings in the West side under full canopy and they are also happy.

[eacdmd86]

Ok I will take a closer look at it tomorrow when I get back.  I am worried that it will get damaged. The previous palm did good from Dec-Apr. It was in May that the sun got more intense, we got no rain, and my smart sprinkler system wasn't watering the way things needed, so the previous one dried out that month and that's when the significant burn set in.

I took pics of each leaf when planting and took pics on Tuesday to compare. There are a few leaflets with brown. I'll compare again tomorrow.

I'm really bummed I can't keep it there as it's a perfect spot. Based on reading online like palmpedia, I was under the impression that they liked full sun, but I guess that is after years of acclimation and growth. I can move it across the path partly under a CIDP that will shade it mid to late afternoon. It won't look as good there and will make things look more cluttered, but it'll probably be happier.

I love all of the full sun recommendations that have been thrown out (red latan looks incredible!), but the space is small so many of those I think would be too big.  An 8 foot spread is probably all that it can handle. I already have 3 sargentii out front, so would prefer something different. Any other ideas, I'm all ears.   Miraguama mentioned earlier may not be bad.  Key thatch is small and likes full sun? What else would be something unique/uncommon but not unobtainable?

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by eacdmd86

[EPaul]

@eacdmd86 You're lucky to live in Fort Lauderdale - there are so many palms you can plant.  What about a Veitchia Spiralis? If you get one grown under part shade, you can acclimate it to full sun at an early age.

[sonoranfans]

13 hours ago, eacdmd86 said:

Ok I will take a closer look at it tomorrow when I get back.  I am worried that it will get damaged. The previous palm did good from Dec-Apr. It was in May that the sun got more intense, we got no rain, and my smart sprinkler system wasn't watering the way things needed, so the previous one dried out that month and that's when the significant burn set in.

I took pics of each leaf when planting and took pics on Tuesday to compare. There are a few leaflets with brown. I'll compare again tomorrow.

I'm really bummed I can't keep it there as it's a perfect spot. Based on reading online like palmpedia, I was under the impression that they liked full sun, but I guess that is after years of acclimation and growth. I can move it across the path partly under a CIDP that will shade it mid to late afternoon. It won't look as good there and will make things look more cluttered, but it'll probably be happier.

I love all of the full sun recommendations that have been thrown out (red latan looks incredible!), but the space is small so many of those I think would be too big.  An 8 foot spread is probably all that it can handle. I already have 3 sargentii out front, so would prefer something different. Any other ideas, I'm all ears.   Miraguama mentioned earlier may not be bad.  Key thatch is small and likes full sun? What else would be something unique/uncommon but not unobtainable?

 

Dessication precedes leaf burn as the cooling process is lost with dessication and the sun energy then cooks the plant.  Normally sun energy is largely absorbed by chlorophyll in photosynthesis and excess heat is shed in leaf transpiration.  IF there is no more water to transpire, it will cook no matter what species and it can be fast.  That it happened in may after a long dry season should tell you a lot.   I still believe that the masonry in sunlight limits your choices.

[Merlyn]

9 hours ago, eacdmd86 said:

Based on reading online like palmpedia, I was under the impression that they liked full sun, but I guess that is after years of acclimation and growth.

An 8 foot spread is probably all that it can handle. I already have 3 sargentii out front, so would prefer something different. Any other ideas, I'm all ears.   Miraguama mentioned earlier may not be bad.  Key thatch is small and likes full sun? What else would be something unique/uncommon but not unobtainable?

Palmpedia also suggests that it is cold hardy to 25F, which is not my experience.  Under heavy canopy...maybe?  Any temperatures under 30F with frost = death in my experience.  But the ones under full canopy at 27-28F were mostly undamaged.  So it may be that they can handle full sun and colder temperatures, but not as a younger palm.  I'd guess it is similar to most Archontophoenix and KO (now CO), which are emergent palms that do not like full sun when young. 

As far as other options, maybe Corypha Umbraculifera?    Seriously, though, there are a few smaller fan palms like Copernicia Macroglossa, Coccothrinax (Argentea or Argentata or Barbadensis or Miraguama) that could fit there, as well as Cryosophila Warscewiczii (say that 5x fast!) and it might be large enough of an area for something like Dypsis Lanceolata.  I struggle with finding cold hardy full-sun small-diameter pinnate palms.  There may be some Areca, Dypsis, Pinanga, or Ptychosperma options that are relatively small and full sun...I just haven't looked at them because most of them are dead at 30F.

 

[Looking Glass]

17 hours ago, eacdmd86 said:

Ok I will take a closer look at it tomorrow when I get back.  I am worried that it will get damaged. The previous palm did good from Dec-Apr. It was in May that the sun got more intense, we got no rain, and my smart sprinkler system wasn't watering the way things needed, so the previous one dried out that month and that's when the significant burn set in.

I took pics of each leaf when planting and took pics on Tuesday to compare. There are a few leaflets with brown. I'll compare again tomorrow.

I'm really bummed I can't keep it there as it's a perfect spot. Based on reading online like palmpedia, I was under the impression that they liked full sun, but I guess that is after years of acclimation and growth. I can move it across the path partly under a CIDP that will shade it mid to late afternoon. It won't look as good there and will make things look more cluttered, but it'll probably be happier.

I love all of the full sun recommendations that have been thrown out (red latan looks incredible!), but the space is small so many of those I think would be too big.  An 8 foot spread is probably all that it can handle. I already have 3 sargentii out front, so would prefer something different. Any other ideas, I'm all ears.   Miraguama mentioned earlier may not be bad.  Key thatch is small and likes full sun? What else would be something unique/uncommon but not unobtainable?

 

I remember you do have some young, great looking Pseudophoenix nearby.   This is such a nice spot, I can see why you’d want something cool there.   

If you’ve already got a lot of feather palms, I nice midsize palmate Palm would go great there.  Almost all of the Cuban and Carribean and native palms can take a real sun-beating. Spikey Key thatch/Leukothrinax morrisii, Floppy Thrinax radiata, Stiff Coccothrinax borhidiana/miriguama (or any favorite coccothrinax) are all faintly compact and pedestrian friendly.   

Dypsis pembana would fit too, as a tall pole option, as already mentioned.

Imagine any of these there.   (Stolen internet pics)

[eacdmd86]

I definitely have to move it.  It's starting to burn up now.  I think a borhidiana or miraguama would look good there.  I'll see what I can find.

[eacdmd86]

Moved it across the walkway underneath a CIDP. It gets full sun from about 10am to 12:30. Then partial shade to full shade the rest of the day. This should be a much happier place for it.  Locating a borhidiana or Miraguama is the next move to fill in the old spot.

10am sun

 

This is about 2:30pm

 

One frond suffered most of the damage. This is in 1 week of time:

Edited August 6, 2022 by eacdmd86

[DoomsDave]

6 hours ago, eacdmd86 said:

Moved it across the walkway underneath a CIDP. It gets full sun from about 10am to 12:30. Then partial shade to full shade the rest of the day. This should be a much happier place for it.  Locating a borhidiana or Miraguama is the next move to fill in the old spot.

10am sun

 

This is about 2:30pm

 

One frond suffered most of the damage. This is in 1 week of time:

Welcome to our merry band! 

I just did a big fist-pump and ran in circles around the front yard, because you did what I was about to advise you to do.

I've got 25 Chambeys in the ground in my place, and I've raised hundreds from seeds and they really have to have lots of water but not a swamp, and shade when young. My biggest is about 30 feet tall now, and in full Southern California sun, and it's been hit with 115FF heat waves, and still it grows and produces seeds. If you've got fast draining sandy soil, try to give it an auto-drip drink every day or every other day if you can.

Keep us apprised, and take more pictures. 

 

[DoomsDave]

Maybe try a Hyophorbe verschaffeltii or langencaulis in the original spot, too? Nice and colorful, with a cool shape for character. 

[Looking Glass]

4 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Maybe try a Hyophorbe verschaffeltii or langencaulis in the original spot, too? Nice and colorful, with a cool shape for character. 

I have kind of a similar front spot.  Both of these grow very easily and quickly here.  This one was small and had no trunk 2 years ago.   Full, all day baking sun.   They love it.  But the small downside is they are very common here also.   

Mike at Carribean Palms Nursery has lots of coccothrinax up in Loxahatchee.   Both should be fairly easy to track down.  Don’t be afraid of a miriguama/borhidiana hybrid either.  These can look really cool and grow faster.  I have one out front in the middle of the yard.   It’s probably my favorite of the 6 I’ve got.   

But I do like interesting looking Dypsis hybrids and stiff-leaved coccothrinax hybrids.  

 

[eacdmd86]

Just an update...

The Chambey seems to be doing well in it's partial sun spot.  The burn has stabilized and only bad on one of the fronds.

I put a borhidiana in it's old spot, which is a cool little palm that'll stay little and will take the blistering sun in stride and ask for more.  I've got a tiny one in a pot in the back and man does it grow slow.

 

[aztropic]

On 8/7/2022 at 12:23 AM, Looking Glass said:

Don’t be afraid of a miriguama/borhidiana hybrid either.  These can look really cool and grow faster. 

 

 

Very cool looking Coccothrinax hybrid that grows 3 times as fast as a purebred. I have 2 in my front yard! The shorter white burlap really is a unique feature.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Looking Glass]

1 hour ago, aztropic said:

Very cool looking Coccothrinax hybrid that grows 3 times as fast as a purebred. I have 2 in my front yard! The shorter white burlap really is a unique feature.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

 

Looks great.  

In our neck of the woods, and your’s too it seems, coccothrinax are great small palms and you can find super-interesting looking ones.   They tolerate sun and drought and alkaline sand.   They tolerate the rough conditions, but seem to thrive under rough conditions, with some extra water and fertilizer. 

My hybrid is the fastest growing coco I have.   Faster than the pure miraguamas, that I’d say grow a little slower.  Seems to be moving at about 1+ feet per year, so far.  

[Merlyn]

I like the setup, good to see that the new Flamethrower isn't actually toast after all!    I bet it'll do fine there long-term. 

Does anyone have hardiness info on a Miraguama/Borhidiana combo?  Miraguama looks like it's good to the upper 20s but dies around 26F.  Borhidiana only has one entry on Kinzyjr's spreadsheet with no damage at 28F.

[aztropic]

Mid 20's is probably about right. Mine have seen 28 without any problems or protection. Thick, mature, Coccothrinax fronds don't seem to freeze easily,but the growing bud is more easily damaged and may produce a deformed frond or spear pull or spear dryup after exposure to below freezing temps.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona