Is this a Jube x Butia?

[deezpalms]

What do you think?

[Scott]

Dave - I don't know - but it sure is reeeal nice

Wonder how old it is....

[Patrick]

I'm no expert, but I'm guessing- YA. The old, dead bases on the trunk look much more Butia than Jubea. But now I'm thinking, perhaps It's a really gargantuan Butia. Those leaves don't look very Jubea to me, but then the upright growth of it..... I'll let the real experts chime in as I quietly bow out.....

[malcthomas]

My for my two cents worth...I'd say Butia capitata var. strictor

cheers...Malcolm

[Caryota_gigas]

Certainly looks far more Butia than Jubaea.

[Kris]

Dear Dave  

that's a beautiful still of a butia hybrid no doubt on that.since

butia never puts such a huge looking trunk...

And the stills are great and the blue car(crv)seen in your still is

lovely i think its a porsche_cyanene ?

love,

Kris  

[osideterry]

Dave - Where is that thing? Just so I can check it out firsthand. It looks to be dropping seeds on a regular basis.

[Turtile]

(malcthomas @ Sep. 06 2007,01:52)

QUOTE

My for my two cents worth...I'd say Butia capitata var. strictor

cheers...Malcolm

Exactly, Butia X Jubaea's leaves bend downwards.  Strictor's are upwards.

[PalmGuyWC]

My two cents:  Looks like a very robust strict form of Butia. If the flower spaths are smooth, no tomentum, then probably a Butia.

Dick

[surgeon83]

(krisachar @ Sep. 06 2007,02:16)

QUOTE

Dear Dave  

that's a beautiful still of a butia hybrid no doubt on that.since

butia never puts such a huge looking trunk...

And the stills are great and the blue car(crv)seen in your still is

lovely i think its a porsche_cyanene ?

love,

Kris  

Unfortunately I don't know what kind of palm it is.  I would say hybrid since it looks so different from all the butias I have seen.  But I have been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

The blue SUV on the other hand- you're close (Porsche is made by VW), but I think its a Volkswagen Toureg.  I like how you commented on the vehicle in the first place; I am pretty interested in cars myself  

[Kris]

(surgeon83 @ Sep. 06 2007,11:19)

QUOTE

The blue SUV on the other hand- you're close (Porsche is made by VW), but I think its a Volkswagen Toureg.  I like how you commented on the vehicle in the first place; I am pretty interested in cars myself  

Hai Surge  

thanks for the information...and iam shure that once you start practising medicine you are gona buy a porsche or a BMW..i know it for shure... ???

thanks & love,

Kris  

[GREENHAND]

theses butias look different than the one in pict 1, i took the picts at the visitors center on inerstate 10 at the florida state line.

[GREENHAND]

another one

[Kris]

Dear Green  

lovely stills...god the still in post one now looks entirely different due to your coverage..is it jubea trait more than the butia ?

this thread is becoming more intreasting due to more visuals..

love,

Kris  

[FRITO]

to me it looks like a robust form of the 'strictor' variety of butia.

there are lots of butia here in Tallahassee and many variations of each.

~

[macario]

I'm almost certain that its a young, upright variety of Jubaea.

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Jubaea/chilensisAV.html

[Gtlevine]

Looks like a Butia.

[TimHopper]

Looks like Butia capitata var. strictor. There are a lot of them around here that look just like it. Tim

[edbrown_III]

Heres a stricticor like Butia in Jax

Best regards

Ed

[edbrown_III]

Here a F3 ( I think) from Merrill

Note no spine armature and heavy fiber. He had mentioned this once as a trait.

[edbrown_III]

Close up of fiber.  Note total lack of thorns

[edbrown_III]

Heres a close up of fruit. I am noting some that are very large and round like Jubea --- seeds arent as big gthough. I would welcome any commentary corrections observations etc from Californians.

Best regards

Ed

[merrill]

Hi,Malcolm, turtile, and frito:

I agree with you fellows that deezpalms Butia is strictior.  As far as its having Jubaea heritance,

If it has much Jubaea heritance, the stamen count would be affected, i e, more than six.  My luck with

Butia strictior has been very bad; every time one is found near Gainesville, it dies

shortly thereafter.  There are a lot of "shaving brush" Jubaea, but they are quite different in detail.

Hi, Ed:  Yes, all JXB hybrids here in Florida have had very fibrous petioles.  B. eriospathe also has hairy

petioles - I just bought two

Best Wishes, merrill

[macario]

Another thing I was thinking when I posted is that I have never seen a Butia capitata var. strictor in California ( maybe I saw one and didnt realize it ). I have though seen many Jubaea and Jubaea x's In SoCali, and how tight restrictions are for bring any palms into Cali especially from florida I would assume it was locally grown.

[malcthomas]

Dear Macario

The Butia in question has a number of old flower spathes etc...Do Jubaea flower at that age?

Dear Merrill....while you and other Butia experts are here, would any one like to put a name on this one...I think I have run this past you before..

[deezpalms]

(macario @ Sep. 06 2007,20:10)

QUOTE

Another thing I was thinking when I posted is that I have never seen a Butia capitata var. strictor in California ( maybe I saw one and didnt realize it ). I have though seen many Jubaea and Jubaea x's In SoCali, and how tight restrictions are for bring any palms into Cali especially from florida I would assume it was locally grown.

After all the conversation I agree that the tree I posted does look like the "strictor" variety & I have seen smaller ones at a local nursery with a purdy steep price tag ta boot!!!

[Ashton]

Dave,

I love how you cleverly concealed any evidence of what street or intersection this might be.

"Let's see...if I stand here...and bend down just so...there! No street sign."  

ashton

[merrill]

Hi Malcolm:

The easiest Butia to distinguish is a fruiting B. yatay; very characteristic fruit.  The vegetative form of this one fits B yatay.

Nice to hear from you again!  merrill

[deezpalms]

(Ashton @ Sep. 06 2007,23:49)

QUOTE

Dave,

I love how you cleverly concealed any evidence of what street or intersection this might be.

"Let's see...if I stand here...and bend down just so...there! No street sign."  

ashton

hahaaa! Ahton, how true! Now if there was an over abundant population of seed I wouldn't care. However, there was only a few seeds and I could not reach them. I will be going back to get those suckers soon. They are somewhat almond shaped seeds and definitely different then regular butia seeds. It's strange because they was so many older inflorescences but hardly any seed. Anyone else local collect seed from this tree?

[STEVE IN SO CAL]

(malcthomas @ Sep. 07 2007,00:43)

QUOTE

Dear Macario

The Butia in question has a number of old flower spathes etc...Do Jubaea flower at that age?

Malcom....love your detective and problem solving skills. Even though I knew it was a Butia, I like how you closed the door on all non-believers...very bright, well done.

Malcom....love your detective and problem solving skills. Even though I knew it was a Butia, I like how you closed the door on all non-believers...very bright, well done.

[merrill]

Hi, Malcolm:

My apologies; don't remember seeing your suspected  B. yatay before.  

Does it have the typical yatay fruit?  Best Wishes, merrill

[Gaston in Argentina]

Malcom.

Your palm is a Butia, if yatay or capitata.... just the fruits forms will tell, just can tell taht Butia yatay is never so green as those pictured.-

[edbrown_III]

We're speculating on vegetative characteristics.

B. yatai is separated from the rest of Butias by the large fruit and flowers. It has a larger number of rachillae than the other members.

B. eriospathea has small flowers and fruit but is distinquished from B. capitata by the complete covering of tomemtum on flowering spathe.

These are the only uniform characteristics (albeit floral) that segregate the plants from other species (although somewhat subjective in that a botanist did it). Otherwise we are argueing about vegetative characteristics that are not necessarily uniform ( We are speculating from several very differnt climates ; Argnta, Calf, and FL. )

Best regards,

Ed

[malcthomas]

Merrill...

This particular tree flowers regularly but to my knowledge has never set seed.  The petiole length is consistant with yatay. (shorter than those of capitata from what I am lead to believe)   Mature B.yatay are pretty rare in NZ.

Do you have an explanation as to why true seed do not develop?  I have a number of mature B.capitata that flower, and when they do occassionally fruit, the seed never form properly. (easier to eat...two or three small pips to spit out) I know this occurs with young trees, but these have been flowering for years....There would be a dozen, all in close proximatey so all capabable of cross pollination.

Gaston....Congratulations for your country's win over France in the World Cup...

Steve...

The only fruiting Jubaea that I have seen are all over 120 years old. I'm told that these don't start flowering until they are 50 years old... I was curious to see whether anyone would come in with information that theirs had started flowering at a younger age...The Jubaea's mass planted in some Californian Park ( I think around your way)...do you know their age and how old they were when  they started producing seed?

kind regards...  Malcom

[Nigel]

(malcthomas @ Sep. 09 2007,02:26)

QUOTE

Gaston....Congratulations for your country's win over France in the World Cup...

Steve...

The only fruiting Jubaea that I have seen are all over 120 years old. I'm told that these don't start flowering until they are 50 years old... I was curious to see whether anyone would come in with information that theirs had started flowering at a younger age...The Jubaea's mass planted in some Californian Park ( I think around your way)...do you know their age and how old they were when  they started producing seed?

kind regards...  Malcom

For an Englishman , Argentinas win was very enjoyable , its good to see the Argentine rugby team come so far. Where is the Brazilian team ?

Malcolm, I am fairly sure a Jubaea can fruit from age 30 in optimum growing conditions, but 50 is more normal.

[STEVE IN SO CAL]

Malcom...not sure their age. I have gathered seeds from them, though. I know that they were brought in as large palms, though.

[PalmGuyWC]

Malcom, et all,

I've posted this in other threads, but once again.....I have 4 Jubaeas, all which must be around 40 years old, or perhaps a little older.  I estimate they were about 7 years old when planted about 32 years ago.  They all are about the same size as the ones planted at Mission Bay in San Diego, but one has grown much faster than the others and is taller.

One, and not the tallest, has been blooming for about 7 or 8 years and it produced viable seeds from the first bloom. None of the others have shown any sign of bloom yet, but judging from their size, they should start blooming in the next few years.

We think the blooming one is a fluke and is blooming early, so as Nigel says, they must start blooming when about 50 years old. Mine have gotten plenty of water and fertilizer over the years. One is the strict variety, and it has the thickest trunk of any of them.  It's enormous, but I really don't care for the strict habit. I much prefer the drooping ones, and that goes for Butias too. I have one strict Butia which I didn't know was going to be strict when I planted it. It has small round seeds and fruit, and the fruit is very sweet tasting.

Dick

[Dypsisdean]

Palmbob just uploaded quite a few photos of different Butias, Jubaeas, and Hybrids to Palmpedia. You may find them interesting. Remember that you can zoom in when viewing photos on Palmpedia.

www.palmpedia.net

[merrill]

Hi, Malcolm:  Quoting post #25 herein:

Dear Merrill....while you and other Butia experts are here, would any one like to put a name on this one...I think I have run this past you before..END QUOTE:

I don't know.  Fronds aren't graceful enough for yatay, which might relate to the trunk.  Is the palm in a situation w/ very few annual degree/hours?

QUOTING Malcolm's Post #34:

Do you have an explanation as to why true seed do not develop?  I have a number of mature B.capitata that flower, and when they do occasionally fruit, the seed never form properly. (easier to eat...two or three small pips to spit out) I know this occurs with young trees, but these have been flowering for years....There would be a dozen, all in close proximatey so all capabable of cross pollination. END QUOTE

My response was slow - was thinking hard! One Butia here in a close row of 60 Butia [bTW the most vigorous of the 60] sets such fruit w/ no embryo nor edosperm.  If your NZ palms weren't too tall, I guess I'd do a cross-pollination and self-pollination and see what happened.  The fact they fruit only occasionally - is there a clue there?  My experience has been that fruit w/o embryo form only where has been a near miss of pollination.  No pollination yields no fruit at all.  Hope I don't seem rude responding to your question w/ more questions - My Very Best Wishes, merrill

[Nigel]

(merrill @ Sep. 11 2007,01:11)

QUOTE

when they do occasionally fruit, the seed never form properly. (easier to eat...two or three small pips to spit out)

Malcolm, probably a silly question........ did you check the small pips for viability or simply dismiss them because of their size ?

The Butia is quite similar in many respects to Butia odorata , which also has very tiny seeds............