Coccothrinax Crinita

[Rudy yuma,az]

What’s wrong with my palm. I live in Yuma Az, and bought this palm in Phoenix . The palm looked great when I got it. It’s been in ground about two months. I planted it on the north side of my house. If you look closely to the center of the palm, the new spikes look brown and dry. Only one leaf opened up completely and the dried out and I removed it. Is my palm going to make it???

[Blueman]

Is the soil dry or moist most of the time?  It's going to take a while to get rooted and established, that genus is slow growing.  

[Rudy yuma,az]

Soil is getting water once a day except on the weekends. It’s planted in sandy soil.

[Blueman]

Sand in full sun can dry out in hours.  I'd dig a basin around it to hold water & direct it down to the roots, along with adding 2 or 3" of mulch.  Be tempted to dig it up and amend the sand with some topsoil.  

[96720]

Mine that I bought the same time doesn’t look great either 250 down the drain!!

[aztropic]

I bought one of these too. I suspect that the imported group may have frozen on the transport trip over the road from Florida to Arizona as they were brought in pretty early this year,like mid February. Damage was internal on the unopened fronds,and was not noticeable when purchased. I know now that a few of them have developed an infection in the crown;same as the one in the pic. You need to be treating this problem with a copper fungicide like bordeaux, daconil, or even a daily application of plain old hydrogen peroxide until you see an improvement. Give that center dried spear a tug to see if it is easily removed. If not,remove as much of it as you can with a pair of scissors so any liquids that are applied dry out quicker. Also looks like it is possibly getting too much sun,and not enough water. Make sure it is getting about 5 gallons of water applied to the rootball every 2 or 3 days. A little bit of water applied every day is a poor watering schedule. Deep watering actually works wonders!

My own plant also developed a crown infection,but fortunately, I caught it early on, and was able to cure it with about a month of treatments. It has now pushed about 5 inches of a spear,but has not opened any new fronds for me yet. Only 1 older frond has died off,but every other frond has damage from transport or wind. I originally chose my smaller plant based on the amount of hair it had. Without the hair,it's just another Coccothrinax...  Mine is planted on an eastern exposure with actually quite a bit of shade provided from other trees. It gets deep watered only once a week. I do believe it will be a survivor though.

Palms imported to Arizona from better growing areas often have trouble adapting to our severe outdoor conditions. Extreme heat, 5% humidity,high winds,and our occasional freezes really seem to take a toll on the more exotic material. 

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

Edited June 27, 2022 by aztropic

[iDesign]

My data is probably not as helpful as I'm in CA not AZ, but I bought THREE of these from the same group of plants (yes, my husband drove to AZ to pick them up...  which puts us squarely in the "palm nut" category). My three were "last kids picked in gym class" so yours were likely as good (or better) than mine, at least initially.  I was just thrilled to find some!

Here's the status on my three...
- The first one had no obvious problems (and no fizzing with HP treatments). I feel most confident that this one's going to make it.
- The second one had minor fizzing with HP treatments, but seems to have recovered. I'm pretty sure it will make it.
- The third one had a TON of fizzing, and the spear was mangled pretty badly. But @aztropic (who was kind enough to facilitate the purchase and plant-sit till I could pick them up) did some fungal-removal surgery on the spear (which he described above), followed by hydrogen peroxide treatments. Thanks again Scott!

My husband has continued doing HP treatments, every few days - on all three of them (and I believe a copper fungicide treatment or two as well). All three palms seem to be doing better now (fingers crossed).  I marked the spears on them, and the most problematic palm has had maybe 3" of growth? I can check more closely tomorrow and/or take pictures if that would be helpful.

All three of my "old men" are currently in part-shade. I'll eventually move them to full hot sun, but they seem to be doing ok in their current location for now.  My husband has both a stake & dripper in each, and so far so good... but we're not going to declare victory for at least a year. Part of the reason I bought three was to increase my chances. Hopefully all of yours survive as well and we can swap photos of our "old men" cousins 

[bubba]

These are Carribean palms, indigenous to regions with high humidity and heat. Yuma certainly meets the heat component as does Phoenix and the entire desert SW. Beyond possible defects in this batch, I would suspect the water component to be a serious concern with this palm in the desert southwest.

The specimens in Key Largo, which lacks the humidity of the Florida mainland, were so lackluster that I did not take pictures. Aztropic nailed this in his observation. If anyone can grow the hairy old man in the desert, it is Aztropic!

It will be interesting to see how this palm fairs in the beneficent climate of coastal Southern California. This is a very slow growing palm in extreme heat and humidity. Accordingly, I can only guess that the main issue with this palm in coastal Southern California will be how slow it grows.

[bubba]

A very large and old C.crintia at Ann Norton Sculptor Gardens on the Intracoastal in WPB, Fl.

[aztropic]

Before and after pics of my old man. It has greened up considerably since planted 3 1/2 months ago. Pretty much just dug a hole,threw in a handful of osmocote,watered it in well,and let nature take it's course. Area where it's planted is actually the best protected microclimate in my yard. My garden was already fully planted out when I bought the old man,so finding a spot to tuck this guy in wasn't easy.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[96720]

Mine hasn’t done anything but the spear has just turned more and more brown 

[aztropic]

You need to give that spear a tug and see if it can be removed. If it is brown,it is probably rotting below and needs to be removed and treated with a fungicide so that new fronds have a chance to grow out without catching the fungus. This species does produce multiple fronds at a time,so there is a good chance it can still recover with some treatment. Start with the H2O2 to get an idea of how big the problem really is. Fizzing is one thing,but if it comes foaming back out of the spear area,it may require surgery to clean out that much rot.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[iDesign]

Here are photos of my three (purchased in March from that same AZ group).

GROUP PHOTO...

CROWN OF OLD MAN #1 (far right) - no issues that I can see, but got HP treatments as a precaution...

CROWN OF OLD MAN #2 (middle) - Has leaf browning + some minor fizzing with HP treatments, but center spear looks great, so thinking it will pull through...

CROWN OF OLD MAN #3 (far left in group photo - @aztropic did fungus "surgery" since center spear originally looked bad (it's now grown out and shows more green). This palm still does some fizzing with HP, but it's pushing a spear and I'm hopeful it will make it (fingers crossed). Here are two views of the problematic palm, which looks much better now than it did earlier...

[aztropic]

Number3 appears to have outgrown it's infection. Yay! I knew it would. It was the biggest of the 3. Yes,you will have a couple ugly fronds for awhile,but the next new spear it pushes should be perfect.

Number 2 - little surprised to see the browning, (sunburn ?) but the spear is healthy and should open into the first perfect frond.

Everyone knows how slow growing this particular species is. Just to have the chance to even purchase them at this size in Arizona was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Hopefully,the others that have exhibited an infection will receive the treatment they need to recover. Maybe not what was expected when purchased,but with a little extra work to heal the rot,all of these imports could make a full recovery. 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[96720]

I planted mine in too much sun I think I cooked it  don’t think it will recover. Put shade cloth on it will keep fingers crossed 

[aztropic]

Inspected my old man palm today and noticed it's first Arizona grown frond has pushed almost 6 inches with our summer heat. Barring an unusually cold winter, I believe this plant has finally established itself into the very hot and dry desert conditions, and hopefully, should be around for years to come.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[96720]

Lucky you!!!

[aztropic]

Yep. I do feel pretty lucky,just to have had the chance to buy and try one this size in Arizona. In my 27 years in AZ, I've never seen a single Coccothrinax of any kind or any size for sale at any local retail nursery until these old men were imported from Florida. They're pretty special...

I've grown and sold dozens of Coccothrinax argentata,barbadensis,borhidiana,boschiana,litoralis,macroglossa,miraguama,moaensis,readii,scoparia,and spissa that I grew myself from seed at smaller sizes,but the genus in general, is still a very rare bird out here. If they only grew faster,they'd probably be pretty commonly planted, as most seem to do very well under our demanding desert conditions.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[iDesign]

Uh oh...

My three Old Men palms were recovering nicely, and my husband stopped doing Hydrogen Peroxide treatments (due to no fizzing). However we just had a pretty big heat wave and were shocked when we noticed that one of the "old men" is pushing out TWO dry, brown, dead-looking spears 

Here's a closeup of the bad one, which is the same palm that was struggling earlier (but appeared to be recovering)...

If I spread the spear on the right I do see a little green, but not much. The good news is that neither spear is able to "pull" at this point.

My husband just put hydrogen peroxide on all three, and all of them fizzed... even the one that looks perfect. Here is a group shot...

* If comparing with the previous photo, note that Palms #1 & #3 were switched (to give the struggling one a bit more shade).

- Old Man on the left is the "Golden Boy" that has always looked good.
- Old Man in the middle had issues but seemed to recover - though the frond color doesn't look very healthy (suggestions?)
- Old Man on the right has a history of issues, and was saved by an @aztropic surgery - but now it suddenly looks horrible (with TWO dry crispy spears). I swear it didn't look like this a week or so ago!

Grateful thanks for any suggestions for possibly saving this palm.

* So far our actions have been to restart Hydrogen Peroxide treatments, increase the Water amount, and switch placement so it gets a bit more shade. Was thinking about cutting the spear (aka "surgery") but it does have some green, and it doesn't look like rot to me... just dry & crispy. Perhaps try Daconil next? Open to suggestions!

[iDesign]

Here's a closeup of the middle one, which we're also concerned about - though not as much as the one on the right...

In the group photo it looks worse than the closeup (almost like the top is collapsing), but the newest spear is shooting straight up. Color is quite a bit more yellow than it should be though.

---

And just to complete the set, here's a photo of the crown of "Golden Boy" (which has always looked perfect)...

[NatureGirl]

Even when I grow crinitas here in FL the seedlings always seem to get a fungus in Winter, I spray them one time with Copper and a spreader sticker. That usually takes care of it. 

[aztropic]

I've come to the conclusion that this particular Coccothrinax species just can't take the heat. About 2 weeks ago,we fell back into the 105F -110F daily highs,and I noticed my old man started drying up again. It had pushed a few inches of a new to me spear during our wet monsoon,but even that has stalled and is drying up along with all of the original fronds. No rot,no H2O2 fizz,just drying up... I am officially throwing in the towel on the old man as an option for desert gardens.  

I highly recommend Coccothrinax borhidiana as a very similar looking plant with a hairy trunk, as I haven't had any trouble with those for the 15 plus years mine have been in the ground. 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[iDesign]

Rats, not what I was hoping to hear.  My first thought is that if @aztropic (a coccothrinax expert) can't keep his Old Man going, I have zero hope. However, my climate is also more mild, so I'm optimistic I can at least keep "Golden Boy" alive. It does make me rethink my placement though as I was originally planning to put all three "old men" on a sunny spot on my hill. Time to rethink the placement 🤔

Thank you for the Coccothrinax borhidiana suggestion. Do you by chance sell these (and ideally have three for sale)? If so, I'm tempted to continue with my original plan of showcasing a trio of "furry fellows" on the sunny part of my hill... but with borhidiana instead of crinita. I'd then put whichever of the Old Men survive in a more sheltered spot.  Please PM me if you either sell borhidiana or have a lead for where I might be able to purchase three.

* And... this is another reason why the palm buying process never completely ends. 🤪

[JubaeaMan138]

I had a nice one going I grew from a small liner got it to about 15 gallon size croaked same thing zero fungus did fine for years out of the blue this summer  . I’ve had zero luck with them if they aren’t in full sun . And in my experience most Coccothrinax atleast here in my area zero overhead water 

[iDesign]

  On 9/6/2022 at 8:16 PM, JubaeaMan138 said:

I had a nice one going I grew from a small liner got it to about 15 gallon size croaked same thing zero fungus did fine for years out of the blue this summer  . I’ve had zero luck with them if they aren’t in full sun . And in my experience most Coccothrinax atleast here in my area zero overhead water 

Expand  

Thanks for sharing your experience... I still have 1-3 of these guys and am debating placement.

Was originally planning on putting them on a hill in full sun... but the fact that one of them appears to have "fried" in the current heatwave gives me pause. But you had trouble in NOT full sun. So maybe part-sun? They seem like prima-donna's so far (in my location) but I'm determined to have at least the "Golden Boy" one do well. 

[Barry]

I have not had great luck in the past with c. crinata, killed 3 of them. But I have one in the ground for about 3 years, doing pretty good. During a strong storm, don’t think it was hurricane Irma, just a strong storm. It was laying over sideways, I felt around, couldn’t feel any damage. I staked it back up and has been doing fine every since. I also bought a 3 gal one (small one at right of picture, borhidiana in the middle) and it is doing fine. They both get overhead watering. I also bought a 25 gal specimen for my new office building in Naples 3 years ago, no overhead watering there, it is pretty much dead now. Then I see huge specimens in different places, not sure what I am doing wrong?

[96720]

Mine aren’t doing too bad at first one was getting burned so I put some shade on it and it seems to be doing better I believe in the original thread that @DoomsDave said they need a lot of water so I have given mine a lot of water keep my fingers crossed!!!

[Frond-friend42]

  On 9/7/2022 at 12:55 AM, Barry said:

I have not had great luck in the past with c. crinata, killed 3 of them. But I have one in the ground for about 3 years, doing pretty good. During a strong storm, don’t think it was hurricane Irma, just a strong storm. It was laying over sideways, I felt around, couldn’t feel any damage. I staked it back up and has been doing fine every since. I also bought a 3 gal one (small one at right of picture, borhidiana in the middle) and it is doing fine. They both get overhead watering. I also bought a 25 gal specimen for my new office building in Naples 3 years ago, no overhead watering there, it is pretty much dead now. Then I see huge specimens in different places, not sure what I am doing wrong?

Expand  

That one on the left is a real stunner, Barry. Is that argentea?

[Barry]

Pretty sure that is miraguama, I’ll confirm tomorrow. It is growing great for me. 

[xoRudy]

Mine here in Maricopa AZ ain’t doing too good either.. since it’s been planted it’s shown no signs of life. The spear is still at the same height, all the leafs are starting to die out now.

[96720]

It looks like it is getting too much sun the spear looks good they are slooooow one of mine is just starting to show a new spear and neither one has a new frond open yet!!!

[JubaeaMan138]

I honestly think the best chance growing this palm is full sun . 

[iDesign]

  On 9/19/2022 at 4:40 AM, JubaeaMan138 said:

I honestly think the best chance growing this palm is full sun . 

Expand  

Full sun in CA? I ask because I have three recently imported (formerly Florida) old men palms, and would love to plant them in a sunny spot. But one did poorly in the recent heat wave (with “fried” center spear)... so I’m keeping them in part-shade for now. TBD whether the “fried” one will recover. 😪

Any examples of full sun Old Men palms in California (or other location... other than Florida)? I know of two successful CA examples, but those appeared to be in part sun. Would LOVE to hear of a CA full sun success story!

[kylecawazafla]

California observational input: the first photo is one growing in mostly full Sun in Vista, CA and the next three photos are the same Palm between 2014 and 2022 (in reverse order I think) at the South Coast Plaza Mall, in Orange County, California. It looks like it had a rough start but is now thriving!

[kylecawazafla]

The photos didn't upload in order! Bottom one is 2014, middle one is 2022, and top one (second from bottom) is 2017. 

[96720]

My old man palm is finally trying to open its first frond since I planted it I now know why they are called old man palms because you are an old man before they open a frond!!!

Edited October 1, 2022 by 96720

[Rod]

 

I've had this coccothrinax crinita since 2.7.97

rod anderson

phoenix, az

[96720]

It looks like it’s in full sun! What has it opened 2or3 fronds since then?

[Looking Glass]

Looking at these pics, I wonder two things.  I wonder if Crinita is perhaps one of the more water-needy coccothrinax…   These seem to respond well to the summer rains here, and seem a little less tough, then their stiff fronded brethren.  I wonder if a lot more water would help with the burning.   

I also wonder how those that are a bit pale and not fried, would respond to a hit of EDDHA iron.   They really do seem to enjoy the extra iron here, going from pale, to a deep green.  Some of the soils in Cuba are rich with metals, to the point of being toxic to many plants. 

[Rod]

This is 25 1/2 years in this location!

I have another one that is 1/2 that size because it is in too much shade.

rod