Why are so many big box stores and even local nurseries pushing adonidia in 9b?

[Gottagrowemall]

Palm coast Florida. Big box stores Wally, big blue and orange all have tons of Christmas palms everywhere. Yet you don’t see any Alexander’s. Why?

 

in your experience are Alexander’s more cold tolerant than Christmas palms? I feel like the Christmas palm push needs to stop. I imagine people around here are buying them thinking they’re gonna be fine and dying every winter.

[kinzyjr]

Archontophoenix alexandrae and Adonidia merrillii - I'd give the edge to Alexander overall.  They tolerate longer stretches of chilly weather better than Adonidia.  Where you'll see a big difference is between Archontophoenix cunninghamiana vs. Adonidia. 

Not all 9b climates are equal.  From my experience, perhaps no USDA zone has a greater difference in what will survive long term at the bottom of the zone range vs. the top of the zone range as 9b.  The bottom measure of 25F will kill a lot of palms that the top measure of 29F will typically support.  The cut off in Florida seems right around the 28F mark. 

When I create a zone map, I split the USDA zones into 5 sub-zones.  Zone 9 gets split into 9a-1 (>= 20, < 22), 9a-2 (>=22, < 24), 9a-b (>=24, < 26) 9b-1 (>=26 < 28), and 9b-2 (>= 28, < 30) for this reason. 

As a local example, here in the city limits we have Adonidia merrillii that are > 12 years old (Pre-2010).  They flower and produce viable offspring for Christmas each year.  Once you get outside the box roughly defined by Harden Blvd./Sikes Blvd./Kathleed Rd. on the west, Sleepy Hill Rd. to the north, Socrum Loop to the east, and 540A to the south, your chances of long term survival drop pretty fast.  After you get west of Galloway Rd, you might as well put them on a refresh schedule where you plan to replace them every 2-5 years.

Do you have access to Archontophoenix seeds?  Sounds like you could sell quite a few

[JASON M]

Costa Farms and whoever else WM/L/HD wholesale their plants from in Florida have a huge production scale for Christmas palms, so they have become quite cheap and dispensable. If they’re worth using as annuals for businesses up north, then it makes sense for them to be “potenti-rennials”  for a lot of the FL peninsula.

My own speculation is that Christmas palms just perform better in FL (not considering cold snaps) without considerable soil amendment/fertilization and irrigation than Archontophoenix species. 

[Johnny Palmseed]

I think for the most part they are selling whatever the growers can provide. Also, there is still a lot of demand for Adonidia. Most people are not palm connoisseurs and usually just see something different and then want it. It doesn’t really matter if it’s not appropriate for a particular area. People will do whatever they want. Look at all the zone pushers on here. They know things won’t grow in an area yet they plant them and try to protect them. I did it and probably still do somewhat but I don’t protect anything. If it survives, great. If not, oh well.

[Gottagrowemall]

  On 6/17/2022 at 8:02 PM, kinzyjr said:

Archontophoenix alexandrae and Adonidia merrillii - I'd give the edge to Alexander overall.  They tolerate longer stretches of chilly weather better than Adonidia.  Where you'll see a big difference is between Archontophoenix cunninghamiana vs. Adonidia. 

Not all 9b climates are equal.  From my experience, perhaps no USDA zone has a greater difference in what will survive long term at the bottom of the zone range vs. the top of the zone range as 9b.  The bottom measure of 25F will kill a lot of palms that the top measure of 29F will typically support.  The cut off in Florida seems right around the 28F mark. 

When I create a zone map, I split the USDA zones into 5 sub-zones.  Zone 9 gets split into 9a-1 (>= 20, < 22), 9a-2 (>=22, < 24), 9a-b (>=24, < 26) 9b-1 (>=26 < 28), and 9b-2 (>= 28, < 30) for this reason. 

As a local example, here in the city limits we have Adonidia merrillii that are > 12 years old (Pre-2010).  They flower and produce viable offspring for Christmas each year.  Once you get outside the box roughly defined by Harden Blvd./Sikes Blvd./Kathleed Rd. on the west, Sleepy Hill Rd. to the north, Socrum Loop to the east, and 540A to the south, your chances of long term survival drop pretty fast.  After you get west of Galloway Rd, you might as well put them on a refresh schedule where you plan to replace them every 2-5 years.

Do you have access to Archontophoenix seeds?  Sounds like you could sell quite a few

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My Alexander’s aren’t seeding yet, I wish! That’s such a good point about 9b though. There are different areas in my city where Christmas palms were killed, defoliated or just burned. I’m mostly in the 2-5 year refresh area though lol. I’d rather refresh an Alexander any day though! I’ve never seen one for sale at the big boxes only my palm collector local nurseries have ever had them

[EPaul]

@Gottagrowemall - As others have said, I think the big box stores just buy in huge quantities and need to distribute to sell as quickly as possible - even out of their range.  Unfortunately, most consumers don't know anything about individual palm species and unknowingly waste money on a palm that will die.  For example, I'm in the colder portion of 9b and they sell small Cocos Nucifera at Home Depot.  So many people buy them thinking "Sweet, let's make our backyard look like the beach", when in reality they're just flushing money down the toilet. 

And @kinzyjr is 100% right - 9B FLORIDA seems to be the most diverse Zone I've ever experienced as a gardener.  I've been in the warmest part of 9B FL and have been able to grow most 10A+10B palms no problem while I'm currently in a cool 9B FL and can't even grow a fishtail or Foxtail palm without them defoliating every other winter (frustrating).

Edited June 17, 2022 by EPaul

[Looking Glass]

Common names get a little confusing sometimes.  In South Florida when you see “Alexander Palms” for sale, they are referring only to Ptychosperma elegans.   These are sold everywhere at the BB stores and Wally World and such under the name Alexander Palm.  

“Alexandra Palm” is the common name for Archontophoenix alexandrae, but you never see them for sale here.  It would be hard to track down one locally if you wanted one here.  

[JohnAndSancho]

I'd buy. But I have to bring all of my palms inside for winter anyway. 

[Reeverse]

  On 6/17/2022 at 7:16 PM, Gottagrowemall said:

Palm coast Florida. Big box stores Wally, big blue and orange all have tons of Christmas palms everywhere. Yet you don’t see any Alexander’s. Why?

 

in your experience are Alexander’s more cold tolerant than Christmas palms? I feel like the Christmas palm push needs to stop. I imagine people around here are buying them thinking they’re gonna be fine and dying every winter.

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I wish we had more Archontophoenix available up here in Volusia county. I’m in the warmest section of our 9b zone but still won’t mess with An Adonidia. I have 4 varieties of the Archontophoenix genus and they are thriving with lots of water of course. Thinking about making a large ordered from MB he’s the only one within 200 miles of us that has them. Let me know if ya want any 

[PalmatierMeg]

BBs sell whatever sells as long as it’s legal. People who move to FL go ga-ga over Adonidias because because they think they are cute and precious and the season-evoking moniker gives potential buyers warm fuzzies. The stores just want to move merchandise. Same thing happens in reverse to transplanted northerners. I see stuff sold that has no business trying to survive in our climate. Every spring BBs load up on hydrangeas, hostas, spring bulbs, tea roses etc that are going to die miserable deaths and look awful doing so. It’s guaranteed that if you grew it in your yard in NJ it has no chance in Fort Myers, FL. Research and due diligence are our friends.

[RedRabbit]

They’re not that bad of palms for 9b. I know quite a few that have lived 15+ years here. If you plant them close to your house they’ll do fine in most winters. 

[James B]

Shoot HD pedals Bottle Palms like they are mana from heaven in Socal. 
 

Banking on people shelling out $300 for a 25 gal palm that will be dead by mid winter. 

[mnorell]

  On 6/18/2022 at 2:41 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

BBs sell whatever sells as long as it’s legal. People who move to FL go ga-ga over Adonidias because because they think they are cute and precious and the season-evoking moniker gives potential buyers warm fuzzies. The stores just want to move merchandise. Same thing happens in reverse to transplanted northerners. I see stuff sold that has no business trying to survive in our climate. Every spring BBs load up on hydrangeas, hostas, spring bulbs, tea roses etc that are going to die miserable deaths and look awful doing so. It’s guaranteed that if you grew it in your yard in NJ it has no chance in Fort Myers, FL. Research and due diligence are our friends.

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Home Depot in Marathon has been bringing in loads of Jacaranda mimosaefolia for years...despite the fact that they may at best grudgingly throw a few flowers each year in the Keys. This sort of thing is obviously a managerial issue at that store, because the Key West store rarely ever has had them (at least what I've observed over the last dozen years). God forbid any of these big-box stores would ever stock the more tropical (SoFla-friendly) species from Brasil.

At least Adonidia are relatively slow and look good in containers, and can be moved in and out with relative ease. You can't do that easily with a flowering tree such as a Jacaranda...

[JLM]

I spotted a double or triple Adonidia on Gallatin, TN a couple weeks ago. It was on the corner of a rather busy intersection. I wonder if how long it will take them to dig it out after early October?

[IndoorPalms]

You’ll be surprised: I live in Missouri and the past couple of summers I’ve seen Christmas palm and foxtail palms, even large specimens; at Garden centers. Along with the usual majesty and Phoenix Pygmy Palm. Hell, even a bottle Palm showed up this year at one of the stores. I’m debating buying a 6 ft. Foxtail I been setting on a pallet, but for $79.99 it seems a little inflated, but still a good deal. I just lost one I brought from Orlando 4 years ago.

I’m happy they brought them up here, and they actually grow quite well here in the late spring Thru early fall. And in the winter, they survive in lower indirect light long as they have humidity and drainage. 

I think they do it for wedding props, or the big mini mansions with big windows. You often see them at malls so they aren’t too crazy an idea.

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by IndoorPalms

[PalmatierMeg]

I’m glad more people up have access to exotic palms and are willing to provide special care for them. Queen palms showed up in a nursery in Fairfax County, VA in the 80s. I bought one (for $60 !!?), treated it like a coconut - outdoors in April, indoors in Oct.). I remember visiting an outlet mall in Dale City, VA and seeing 20’ tall Adonidias decorating the food court conservatory. I’d never seen crownshafted palms before and I went Yankee ga-ga over them. Someone told me they were “Manila Palms”. If memory serves me these palms never flowered or set seeds or maintenance removed any flower spathes.

[sonoranfans]

  On 6/17/2022 at 8:20 PM, JASON M said:

Costa Farms and whoever else WM/L/HD wholesale their plants from in Florida have a huge production scale for Christmas palms, so they have become quite cheap and dispensable. If they’re worth using as annuals for businesses up north, then it makes sense for them to be “potenti-rennials”  for a lot of the FL peninsula.

My own speculation is that Christmas palms just perform better in FL (not considering cold snaps) without considerable soil amendment/fertilization and irrigation than Archontophoenix species. 

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My archontophoenix are in contrast to that.  Once they get big they are more cold resistant, my alexandre purpurea and myolensis recovered faster from the 2018 freeze.  When grown in containers the adonidia no doubt do better, and many plan to grow in containers up north.  I used to know the (now former) orange box head of AG.  What people buy what is easy to care for and has less losses and limited differences in care requirements is what sticks.  Stock is written off and trashed when it doesnt sell.  Up north all are annuals.  Adonidias are shorter palms maybe easier to ship, and the multitrunks have an instant exotic palm look.  They are also a bit less water needy.  Then there is the concept that they dont know as much as many of us about these palms and failure teaches them.  Palms that are good in containers and sell wont have to be destroyed.   Might be lots of palms sent up north are planned as comtainer palms.  My archie experiments in containers were not so good, lots of stunting. 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

Only thing the big box stores carry in DFW are majesty palms, pygmy dates, cat palms. and queens. It’s just about selling whatever they can make the highest margins on and that excludes anything slower growing that actually has a shot at survival here. It’s kind of sad really. This could be a pretty palmy city and you could have Sabal everywhere but you kind of have to be into palms to know where to find the right ones. I’m sure tons of people would buy Sabal minors, Louisiana, Mexicanas and palmettos trachycarpus if stocked at these places. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by DreaminAboutPalms