Help with Flame thrower palm condition

[Mytropicalyard]

Just bought this flame thrower palm, Green crown shaft.  I have it in my yard in ground for about a week.  I am in zone 10B south florida.  It is now receiving Eastern sun exposure from 8am till 11am(ish).  Then around noon tall oak trees that are above give shade to filtered sun to the palm.  The palm started developing browning on the leaves.  Not sure if this means that just those few hours of morning full sun is too much.  I keep it watered every morning and make sure it doesnt dry out.  We are now in the rainy season in SoFlo so at times i dont water since we can have a day of 2 to 3 inches of rain.  I have it planted in a raise bed on a retaining wall held earth.

[Kim]

Looks like sunburn. That white wall may be reflecting too much heat, especially by 11:00. It will eventually acclimate to sun, but it's pretty young. I'm not sure how Floridians manage their young palms, hopefully someone will pop in with a suggestion. In Southern California we sometimes construct temporary overhead shade cloth structures for sensitive young palms, especially if they came directly out of a greenhouse.

[D. Morrowii]

As @Kim says looks like sunburn. If it has never seen direct sunlight wherever it lived up till now it wont take much of this springtime Florida sun to start cooking it. I have one with about 6” of trunk that still burns a little but it sees about 6-7 hours of harsh sun per day. I’d give it lots of water and put some shade cloth over it until it gets 4-5 feet tall if you want to be safe. If not make sure at least one leaf is protected and you might get it acclimated if its only seeing 3 hours of sun per day. My worry would be that all the leaves burn off before they can be replaced and these palms don’t make new ones terribly fast. 
 

Welcome to Palmtalk by the way!

[Mytropicalyard]

Hello Kim and D. Morrowii thanks for the reply. After reading Kim's reply I quickly went outside and covered the baby palm.  I had some spare wood laying around and hammered 4 points around the palm.  Then stapled some spare shade cloth (30% sun) I had laying around.  I know its temporary and I might redo this method of shading it.  Its definitely an eye sore but lets see what happens.  I am currently building up my backyard so it is not settled back here yet.  Here are some pics

[Tyrone]

22 minutes ago, Mytropicalyard said:

Hello Kim and D. Morrowii thanks for the reply. After reading Kim's reply I quickly went outside and covered the baby palm.  I had some spare wood laying around and hammered 4 points around the palm.  Then stapled some spare shade cloth (30% sun) I had laying around.  I know its temporary and I might redo this method of shading it.  Its definitely an eye sore but lets see what happens.  I am currently building up my backyard so it is not settled back here yet.  Here are some pics

You've done the right thing. It will be an eye sore for a while but the palm will more than make up for that in the future when it's all sunhardened and opening up new red leaves. Keep it well watered and give it a splash of seaweed and fish emulsion every month during the growing season and it should be magnificent in time. 

If it was my place (this is just a suggestion) I'd give it some company from maybe some gingers or canna Lillies. Something fast growing that gives it a bit of protection in time but grow back quickly if they get damaged. Being a rainforest palm, they need close company especially when young to be happy. 

[Mytropicalyard]

1 hour ago, Tyrone said:

You've done the right thing. It will be an eye sore for a while but the palm will more than make up for that in the future when it's all sunhardened and opening up new red leaves. Keep it well watered and give it a splash of seaweed and fish emulsion every month during the growing season and it should be magnificent in time. 

If it was my place (this is just a suggestion) I'd give it some company from maybe some gingers or canna Lillies. Something fast growing that gives it a bit of protection in time but grow back quickly if they get damaged. Being a rainforest palm, they need close company especially when young to be happy. 

Hello Tyrone,

Thank you for the input.  I actually have quite a few heliconias and gingers that I am going to divide so I can plant in the area.  Great idea to create shade from near by plants.  In the future I can always dig up the helciconia/ginger and transplant once the palm has matured.

I am grateful for this palmtalk community.  I am a newbie here in this forum and have received great reaponses.  Appreciate the help from everyone.

[eacdmd86]

I was just coming on here for some advice exactly along these lines about my watermelon-ish CM.  I am also in 10b.  I planted this in the ground last December from a 7g pot it was exploding out of from a nursery.

I thought it would be mature enough, but it's getting sunburn now that summer sun is rolling in. It had been fine until the last couple weeks. The tall spear you see in the pic was about half the size at the time of planting in Dec, and maybe a month ago it naturally exfoliated a smaller frond when the small spear started growing.  The large spear STILL hasn't opened even though it's 5-6ft tall?

Am I going to lose this thing if it burns more, and why won't the new frond open?

This is in the front of my house, so constructing a tent around it would be difficult/unsightly.

(Sorry for the night shots)

Edited May 31, 2022 by eacdmd86

[96720]

They are slooooow it will eventually open I only get 2 fronds a year so you want to be really careful with them!!!

[eacdmd86]

Am I in trouble with all of the burn it is getting? What do I do?

[Tyrone]

3 hours ago, Mytropicalyard said:

 

 I actually have quite a few heliconias and gingers that I am going to divide so I can plant in the area.  Great idea to create shade from near by plants.  In the future I can always dig up the helciconia/ginger and transplant once the palm has matured.

 

Perfect.

Make sure you take some pictures at the beginning and then post progress shots over the years. We all like seeing them and its great to look back and see it plainly like that. When you see it every day its harder to see the actual progress being made. 

[Tyrone]

52 minutes ago, eacdmd86 said:

Am I in trouble with all of the burn it is getting? What do I do?

I don't know your climate there, but it's definitely getting too much sun. If it was me I would shelter it temporarily even if it was as ugly as sin. Then probably plant some Heliconias or gingers that can handle that location to just give it a break until it settles in.

That being said Ive seen these growing in too much sun up in Perth and provided they are watered like an aquatic plant and fertilised accordingly after a while they rise from the ashes and look amazing. But it takes a good while, like years. The risk you run doing nothing, is if you get a horrendous heatwave (pretty much everywhere on Earth has had that lately during summer) and it burns every green bit, it may die or just look awful for an extended period. 

[sonoranfans]

I waited 5-6 years before planting my macrocarpa because I got advice here that it would burn in sun.  It gets a good bit of shade now and is happy.  THe regular macrocarpa has wider leaflets than the chambeyronia macrocarpa hookeri, the bigger leaflets make it less sun tolerant.  SO if you have a somewhat sunny position a hookeri is likely a better bet with its more narrow leaflets.  The leaflets of my CM are just abput 5" wide(it has 2' trunk).  Being genetics are very similar the wider leaflets of CM will be less sun tolerant than CM hookeri.

[Mytropicalyard]

Well guys thank you all for the input.  Last night went to bed thinking about the palm and how it was going to hold up.

This morning I decided to dig out the palm and place it into a 3 gallon container (it was purchased in a 1 gallon container).  I did this so that I can baby it in a better shaded environment until I feel comfortable placing back into the area I had it originally.  I figured it will be better to slowly acclimate it to the intense South Florida summer sun.

Here are pics of where it currently is.

Its surrounded by other plants.  I have a few palms in here.  Coconut Palm is the main shade cover for these plants.  I have 3 containers with Christmas palms that I have grown from seed that had fell and germinated in my front yard from the mother tree.  I also have 2 Medjool Date palms that I grew from germinated seeds (organic medjool date fruits).  Other than those I have multiple heliconias some are in early stages in its first shoot and others still growing from rhizomes.  Papaya, Cassava, Alocasia, Colocasias.

[Mytropicalyard]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

I waited 5-6 years before planting my macrocarpa because I got advice here that it would burn in sun.  It gets a good bit of shade now and is happy.  THe regular macrocarpa has wider leaflets than the chambeyronia macrocarpa hookeri, the bigger leaflets make it less sun tolerant.  SO if you have a somewhat sunny position a hookeri is likely a better bet with its more narrow leaflets.  The leaflets of my CM are just abput 5" wide(it has 2' trunk).  Being genetics are very similar the wider leaflets of CM will be less sun tolerant than CM hookeri.

Thanks for that info.  Wow 5 to 6 years before planting.  I have decided to remove it from the ground and keep it in a container so I can baby it in more shade.  Interestingly I have bought a Hookeri that I am waiting for it to be shipped to me. Cant wait !

[sonoranfans]

I just didnt buy one for 5-6 year, I surely didnt keep one in a container for that long.  I watied for canopy to grow in then got the palm.

[Merlyn]

In the Orlando area I've had flamethrowers in full sun to full shade, they adapt well to everything except frost and temps below 30F.  At that point they die.    For yours, I would agree it is sunburn, it was probably grown in a shade house and has never seen actual sun before.  I'd guess it is too much sun reflecting off the wall, since the sunburn is kind of diffused and not specific to just the portions of the leaf facing directly upwards.  The pattern implies that it's being burned from a variety of angles, by bouncing off the wall.  That might be a long-term problem unless you plant something on either side that's taller and provides some shade for the palm and the wall.  Repotting it is probably a good idea, just make sure that it's in a shady spot so it can recover.  Because they grow only 1-3 fronds per year, it'll take a long time to adjust to the new light levels if you want it in a lot of sun.

As an example, here is my "nursery area" with a similarly sized Macrocarpa on the far right.  It's actually providing shade for the seedlings under it, and tolerated 8AM-12PM sun pretty well.  In the center there are a couple of bottle palms with a Macrocarpa triple in the middle (1 each Hookeri, regular, and Watermelon).  You can see that the queens above are providing pretty good shade for the middle area, and the one on the far right (towards the East) is a bit unhappily yellowed due to not enough water or fertilizer and too much sun. 

I also had a similarly sized one (around 4' tall overall) planted on the East side of a Butia (Pindo) triple, and it was totally fine with full AM sun and filtered PM sun.  But it was also slowly acclimated to sun over several months in my nursery area, so it wasn't a big shock going into sun.

[Mytropicalyard]

7 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

I just didnt buy one for 5-6 year, I surely didnt keep one in a container for that long.  I watied for canopy to grow in then got the palm.

Ahh thanks for the clarification.  That makes sense.  

[Merlyn]

12 hours ago, eacdmd86 said:

I was just coming on here for some advice exactly along these lines about my watermelon-ish CM.  I am also in 10b.  I planted this in the ground last December from a 7g pot it was exploding out of from a nursery.

I thought it would be mature enough, but it's getting sunburn now that summer sun is rolling in. It had been fine until the last couple weeks. The tall spear you see in the pic was about half the size at the time of planting in Dec, and maybe a month ago it naturally exfoliated a smaller frond when the small spear started growing.  The large spear STILL hasn't opened even though it's 5-6ft tall?

Am I going to lose this thing if it burns more, and why won't the new frond open?

This time of year is tough on shade-loving palms like flamethrowers.  It's not too bad once it starts raining every afternoon, but right now the blazing sun and drought is pretty bad.  Generally in the Orlando area we get a May and October hot drought, some of my plants need a little extra water.  Your sunburn looks pretty "normal" and it is only on the leaves facing directly upwards.  Is yours also in AM sun/PM shade?  I'm not sure about East-West in the photo. 

The new spear could end up being more than 6 feet long, they do grow pretty large!  I'd mark it horizontally with a sharpie, near the base across the spear and the nearby fronds.  That way you can see if it's moving slowly but steadily.  If it is completely stationary that is a cause for concern.  If it's still moving then it just isn't ready to open up yet.  I had to "help" a bottle palm open up once, it had grown a full solid spear and had a second one growing up.  In that case the tip of the spear was "fused" together and it just couldn't open.  I gave it a very light twist and the leaflets seemed like they were loose.  So I carefully separated the leaflets at the tip.  In a couple of days it had started opening up, and I just had to "help" two or three more leaflets to get unstuck.  I would NOT recommend doing that on yours unless it's clearly finished growing the spear and there's a second one coming up from the center.

[Mytropicalyard]

13 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

In the Orlando area I've had flamethrowers in full sun to full shade, they adapt well to everything except frost and temps below 30F.  At that point they die.    For yours, I would agree it is sunburn, it was probably grown in a shade house and has never seen actual sun before.  I'd guess it is too much sun reflecting off the wall, since the sunburn is kind of diffused and not specific to just the portions of the leaf facing directly upwards.  The pattern implies that it's being burned from a variety of angles, by bouncing off the wall.  That might be a long-term problem unless you plant something on either side that's taller and provides some shade for the palm and the wall.  Repotting it is probably a good idea, just make sure that it's in a shady spot so it can recover.  Because they grow only 1-3 fronds per year, it'll take a long time to adjust to the new light levels if you want it in a lot of sun.

As an example, here is my "nursery area" with a similarly sized Macrocarpa on the far right.  It's actually providing shade for the seedlings under it, and tolerated 8AM-12PM sun pretty well.  In the center there are a couple of bottle palms with a Macrocarpa triple in the middle (1 each Hookeri, regular, and Watermelon).  You can see that the queens above are providing pretty good shade for the middle area, and the one on the far right (towards the East) is a bit unhappily yellowed due to not enough water or fertilizer and too much sun. 

I also had a similarly sized one (around 4' tall overall) planted on the East side of a Butia (Pindo) triple, and it was totally fine with full AM sun and filtered PM sun.  But it was also slowly acclimated to sun over several months in my nursery area, so it wasn't a big shock going into sun.

Hello Merlyn,

 

Thanks for the detailed info and pics.  Nice setup you have there.

I think I have enough info from this wonderful community.  Thank you all who have chimed in.  I am going to plan out my landscape emphasizing the importance of creating better shade canopy to protect these sun sensitive plants.

[Looking Glass]

I agree with everything that everyone is saying about sun exposure above.  I’ve found C. Macrorocarpa and hookerii to be some of my most sun-sensitive plants here. (Unfortunately I’ve got very little shade)  I got several 1g from Floribunda last year and it took a year of acclimating before they could tolerate even a little sun.  

Planted out 3 hookerii and still have the macrocarpa in a pot.  Tucked in with other plants for some protection.  These are 4-5 feet tall, and still have limited sun tolerance. 
 

[eacdmd86]

58 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

This time of year is tough on shade-loving palms like flamethrowers.  It's not too bad once it starts raining every afternoon, but right now the blazing sun and drought is pretty bad.  Generally in the Orlando area we get a May and October hot drought, some of my plants need a little extra water.  Your sunburn looks pretty "normal" and it is only on the leaves facing directly upwards.  Is yours also in AM sun/PM shade?  I'm not sure about East-West in the photo. 

The new spear could end up being more than 6 feet long, they do grow pretty large!  I'd mark it horizontally with a sharpie, near the base across the spear and the nearby fronds.  That way you can see if it's moving slowly but steadily.  If it is completely stationary that is a cause for concern.  If it's still moving then it just isn't ready to open up yet.  I had to "help" a bottle palm open up once, it had grown a full solid spear and had a second one growing up.  In that case the tip of the spear was "fused" together and it just couldn't open.  I gave it a very light twist and the leaflets seemed like they were loose.  So I carefully separated the leaflets at the tip.  In a couple of days it had started opening up, and I just had to "help" two or three more leaflets to get unstuck.  I would NOT recommend doing that on yours unless it's clearly finished growing the spear and there's a second one coming up from the center.

Thanks for the advice!  I will mark the spear when I get home and watch it.

In the winter, it was getting mostly morning sun until early afternoon thanks to a large CIDP in my yard.  But now with the sun higher up in the sky, I think it's getting mostly full day sun.   Part of this is probably my fault, as I haven't been watering it enough yet.  I'm trying to figure out my new "smart" sprinkler controller that is supposed to water based on rain and soil saturation.  Not so "smart" unless it's me being not so "smart" programming it.

Thanks to the OP for posting this topic, and sorry for crashing in with my own issues.  I will have to see what I can figure out in terms of getting it some relief from the sun.

[Merlyn]

17 minutes ago, eacdmd86 said:

Thanks for the advice!  I will mark the spear when I get home and watch it.

In the winter, it was getting mostly morning sun until early afternoon thanks to a large CIDP in my yard.  But now with the sun higher up in the sky, I think it's getting mostly full day sun.   Part of this is probably my fault, as I haven't been watering it enough yet.  I'm trying to figure out my new "smart" sprinkler controller that is supposed to water based on rain and soil saturation.  Not so "smart" unless it's me being not so "smart" programming it.

Thanks to the OP for posting this topic, and sorry for crashing in with my own issues.  I will have to see what I can figure out in terms of getting it some relief from the sun.

Mine have been happy with a lot of water, the triple in the photo above are in the middle of a nursery area.  It gets blanketed by several dripline "sprayer fans on a stick" every morning.  I'm not sure what their overall water tolerance is, but they seem to be fine with a lot of it.  Maybe a shade cloth net horizontally above it is an option, at least temporarily to help shelter it from hot PM sun?  You don't need a full "tent," the sides are maybe a bad idea because they restrict airflow and don't provide any actual shade.  That's why nurseries just have cloth up top as a roof.  Depending on your spot, you might be able to swing a temporary roof to allow it to adjust to more sun.

It's always going to look better with some PM shade, so one option is to plant something next to it to the West.  A skinny palm that likes full sun might work, or a medium height banana, or even something decorative like a trellis.  You could also consider moving it to a shadier spot.  At 5 months in the ground it probably hasn't spread roots too far, especially if it was very rootbound in the 7g pot.

[eacdmd86]

On 5/31/2022 at 1:43 PM, Merlyn said:

Mine have been happy with a lot of water, the triple in the photo above are in the middle of a nursery area.  It gets blanketed by several dripline "sprayer fans on a stick" every morning.  I'm not sure what their overall water tolerance is, but they seem to be fine with a lot of it.  Maybe a shade cloth net horizontally above it is an option, at least temporarily to help shelter it from hot PM sun?  You don't need a full "tent," the sides are maybe a bad idea because they restrict airflow and don't provide any actual shade.  That's why nurseries just have cloth up top as a roof.  Depending on your spot, you might be able to swing a temporary roof to allow it to adjust to more sun.

It's always going to look better with some PM shade, so one option is to plant something next to it to the West.  A skinny palm that likes full sun might work, or a medium height banana, or even something decorative like a trellis.  You could also consider moving it to a shadier spot.  At 5 months in the ground it probably hasn't spread roots too far, especially if it was very rootbound in the 7g pot.

Marked the two spears.  This picture is exactly 1 week after marking. You can see the newest spear grew about 2 inches in a week. The long 6-ish foot one maybe grew 1mm.  Maybe it's very close to opening.  I've never seen this palm open yet...I hope I didn't get the 1 in 20 or whatever green flamethrower -- the spear is still very green.

 

Planting anything around it isn't possible...it's got walkway, house, and wall surrounding it. I think it will acclimate, and now I know I wasn't watering it enough before, which I think contributed to all the burn.  April and May were very dry for us.

[Merlyn]

1 hour ago, eacdmd86 said:

Marked the two spears.  This picture is exactly 1 week after marking. You can see the newest spear grew about 2 inches in a week. The long 6-ish foot one maybe grew 1mm.  Maybe it's very close to opening.  I've never seen this palm open yet...I hope I didn't get the 1 in 20 or whatever green flamethrower -- the spear is still very green.

Planting anything around it isn't possible...it's got walkway, house, and wall surrounding it. I think it will acclimate, and now I know I wasn't watering it enough before, which I think contributed to all the burn.  April and May were very dry for us.

Yeah, April and May...and the first week of July too...were all very dry in Orlando.  Fortunately it wasn't super-hot, but there were a lot of 90+ days in May.  That could certainly contribute to it.  Since the 6' frond isn't growing I'd expect it to be already opened.  You could check the tip to see if the end is fused.  I had that happen to a Spindle that I bought.  It started growing a second spear and the first one hadn't even tried to open yet.  It turns out the very tip was sort of "stuck" together and needed some help.  If I lightly twisted the spear it was sort of separated in the middle, just not at the end.  I carefully peeled off a couple of leaflets near the tip, and within a couple of days it had started to open...a bit.  I had to manually separate a few leaflets to encourage it to fully open.  The next spear opened up just fine.  I've seen other people here with a similar problem on King palms, and the issue there appeared to be a transient lack of water.  The palm just didn't have the "hydrostatic pressure" to open up the leaves.

Regarding the spear color, I think mine were greenish until they started to open.  It's dark now so I can't easily look at mine here.

[Mytropicalyard]

***update***

my burnt palm pushed out a new leaf.

I have kept this palm under a shade cloth, 50% shade.  It has thrived in that environment and the burning has stopped.  Meanwhile the new leaf was slowly growing and here it is.  

 

[Merlyn]

Looks great!  They will acclimate to more sun over time, but that original spot against the white wall could still be too intense.  I did have a couple of them planted in full sun here in Orlando, so it may be worth a shot to replant it around November so it can get used to the sunlight over the winter.  Then *maybe* it won't leaf burn in April/May next year.  Another possibility is to put more of that trellis along the white wall behind your spot, with a climbing bougainvillea (or something similar) to take care of that strong reflected light.  That could be a neat combo, if you "trained" a bougainvillea to grow up and over it.  In South FL you could probably grow something this big in a single summer:

[Mytropicalyard]

thanx Merlyn,

My shade cloth area is somewhere else in my yard that actually gets more hours of sun compared to the white wall area.  The shade cloth; I want to believe is slowly helping the palm become resilient with the bright light all day.  Good idea to try planting it in the fall in its forever spot.  My plan with the wall is to have that Monstera and Giant Hawaiian Pothos (in the background of pic) climb it and make a nice cover to prevent the reflection of light the wall creates.  Also I want to build some wooden structure on the wall to have other climbing plants like Philidendrons.  But this later in the future when I have bigger mature plants making better shade areas.