Pritchardia & Septic Systems

[Big Eye]

Aloha Everyone!

After doing some reading on the internet, mostly topics on here, I'm beginning to think that I may have planted my Pritchardia a little too close to my septic tank/leach field... During the initial digging of the hole, I hadn't thought twice about the distance from the hole to the system until after I stood back to look at the entire site. It was a last minute planting and haven't had time to go back to dig it out to move it. But before I do, I wanted to get your expertise on if I even need to relocate it? Or course my biggest concern is the roots entering the leach lines and septic tank cause blockage in the future. I believe the septic tank is made of polyethylene material, and not concrete. Not sure if that makes a difference at all. I measured approximately 9' from the palm to the nearest cleanout cover which is the one nearest in the picture.

I've read that palm's roots are not really aggressive, and couldn't find a ton of information on palm tree roots and septic systems other than the info that I've found on PT.

Thanks for reading and any input is greatly appreciated!

Keenan

[Tracy]

  On 5/20/2022 at 8:29 PM, Big Eye said:

I'm beginning to think that I may have planted my Pritchardia a little too close to my septic tank/leach field.

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I can't answer your question, but after reading it and looking at the planting, my first thought was what species of Pritchardia.  The species and potential overall size might play into my decision and the advice that you receive.  Some of the smaller growing ones would clearly be of significantly less risk than the chunky tall ones.  Hopefully the consensus will be that you don't have to move it.  Good luck.

[Alan_Tampa]

Don't worry about the roots. Have septic, over planted yard. Non-issue with roots. 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

@Big Eye You said 9' to clean out but how close to leach lines ? For sure there will be no problems with the clean out. If you said oak tree then there would be a problem. Palms not so much 

T J 

[Merlyn]

I see two cleanouts in the photos, is that the entry to the tank...tank in between...and exit from the tank?  Or something else?  The tanks themselves are impervious (unless cracked) so palm roots aren't a concern.  Oak roots or other expanding-root types too close to a tank can crack it.  But I can't see palm roots affecting a tank.  The drainfield is a bigger question, and it depends on the depth of the drainfield.  If it's only 3-4 feet down, like mine, then roots could easily get in there.  I planted at least 10 feet away, except for an Encephalartos Laurentianus that's only about 4 feet from the edge of the field.  Hopefully the taproot goes straight down into the water table at ~6-8 feet down...instead of sideways towards the field!

[Tyrone]

Personally I wouldn’t worry.

Now if it was a Ficus then definitely move the thing, or just watch the Ficus grow alarmingly quick as your septic blocks up. 

As others have said, palms don’t crack and strangle pipes etc as they have no secondary thickening or cambium layer like dichotomous trees do. They are monochotomous so they don’t thicken the root once it’s produced. A big root will hit an obstruction and either stop or go around it. It can’t find a tiny crack, enter it, then thicken to bust it open. 

[Big Eye]

  On 5/20/2022 at 10:02 PM, Tracy said:

I can't answer your question, but after reading it and looking at the planting, my first thought was what species of Pritchardia.  The species and potential overall size might play into my decision and the advice that you receive.  Some of the smaller growing ones would clearly be of significantly less risk than the chunky tall ones.  Hopefully the consensus will be that you don't have to move it.  Good luck.

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Hi Tracey - Thanks for your input. Forgot to add that this is a P. hardyi in the initial post. So as I read on Palmpedia, "to 10 m tall"? I'm not planning on planting any of the larger loulu close to the house for fear of it falling on the roof someday. So those will be planted well away from any structures and of course, the septic system.

[Big Eye]

  On 5/20/2022 at 10:25 PM, Alan_Tampa said:

Don't worry about the roots. Have septic, over planted yard. Non-issue with roots. 

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Thanks for the feedback, Alan. As a rookie to the planting world, I was totally oblivious to how close the palm was to the cleanout until AFTER the palm went in... Will wait it out and see what happens. Thanks again for your input!

[Big Eye]

  On 5/20/2022 at 11:54 PM, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

@Big Eye You said 9' to clean out but how close to leach lines ? For sure there will be no problems with the clean out. If you said oak tree then there would be a problem. Palms not so much 

T J 

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Hi TJ - The leach field is just beyond the other cap in the background which I believe is the distribution box and the field is 12'X24'. I did not take a measurement from the palm to that pipe but it is more than 9'. I will double check that distance and post it here for added info.

Thanks for your time.

[Big Eye]

  On 5/21/2022 at 12:05 AM, Merlyn said:

I see two cleanouts in the photos, is that the entry to the tank...tank in between...and exit from the tank?  Or something else?  The tanks themselves are impervious (unless cracked) so palm roots aren't a concern.  Oak roots or other expanding-root types too close to a tank can crack it.  But I can't see palm roots affecting a tank.  The drainfield is a bigger question, and it depends on the depth of the drainfield.  If it's only 3-4 feet down, like mine, then roots could easily get in there.  I planted at least 10 feet away, except for an Encephalartos Laurentianus that's only about 4 feet from the edge of the field.  Hopefully the taproot goes straight down into the water table at ~6-8 feet down...instead of sideways towards the field!

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Hi Merlyn - I believe the second "cleanout" could be the Distribution Box which should be the beginning of the leach field? I am going off our Wastewater System plan detail sheet as that could be my only guess as to what the second pipe is. Also, based off that same plan, it looks like the leach field is right around 3-4 feet deep as well. I am hoping that the palm to the second pipe is 10' or more away, which it seems possible that it is.

Thanks for your insight!

 

[Big Eye]

  On 5/21/2022 at 12:18 AM, Tyrone said:

Personally I wouldn’t worry.

Now if it was a Ficus then definitely move the thing, or just watch the Ficus grow alarmingly quick as your septic blocks up. 

As others have said, palms don’t crack and strangle pipes etc as they have no secondary thickening or cambium layer like dichotomous trees do. They are monochotomous so they don’t thicken the root once it’s produced. A big root will hit an obstruction and either stop or go around it. It can’t find a tiny crack, enter it, then thicken to bust it open. 

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Hi Tyrone - Thanks for your input. Good to know that I need not worry too much about palm roots and the tank/pipes itself. Whew.

Would you guys know about how far palm roots typically "run" from the plant? Or are they all different based on species?

Thanks again to all who replied and those who will be! It is much appreciated!

Keenan

[Kailua_Krish]

  On 5/21/2022 at 12:32 AM, Big Eye said:

Hi Tracey - Thanks for your input. Forgot to add that this is a P. hardyi in the initial post. So as I read on Palmpedia, "to 10 m tall"? I'm not planning on planting any of the larger loulu close to the house for fear of it falling on the roof someday. So those will be planted well away from any structures and of course, the septic system.

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You’ll be dead before P Hardy’s is that big from my experience…

[Tyrone]

  On 5/21/2022 at 1:07 AM, Big Eye said:

Hi Tyrone - Thanks for your input. Good to know that I need not worry too much about palm roots and the tank/pipes itself. Whew.

Would you guys know about how far palm roots typically "run" from the plant? Or are they all different based on species?

Thanks again to all who replied and those who will be! It is much appreciated!

Keenan

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They’re all different depending on species. Obviously the bigger the palm the further they’ll go. Palms are generally not deep rooted plants either, with some exceptions. I believe Bismarckia can go deep. 

[rprimbs]

We had our septic redone last year.  I have trees near the tank with no problem.  This is the original tank that was installed in 1960.  We have at least one tree (A willow, of all things...) that is sixty years old twenty feet from the tank.

Our leach lines were the old style segmented pottery lines.  The sewage would seep out between the segments.  I have two very large oak trees on either end of the lines.  The oak tree roots curiously were not a problem.  My lines got clogged by the roots from some large bougainvilleas.

Tree roots don't really seek out water, they follow it.  If the water makes it's way to the roots then the roots will grow vigorously in the soil that is wet.  Palm trees tend to have "compact" dense roots.  I doubt that you would get much trouble from palm trees.

[ahosey01]

I am aligned with most of the PTers on this subject.  Palm tree roots are generally noninvasive.  I think you're fine.

[Big Eye]

  On 5/21/2022 at 5:01 AM, Kailua_Krish said:

You’ll be dead before P Hardy’s is that big from my experience…

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That's good to hear! I think?  It really shouldn't be, but it's hard to find areas to drop them in so that we can enjoy the plants all while not blocking the views of the ocean and mountain that my wife really likes. Right now, we're just trying to figure out placement so we can at least have some privacy from the neighbors with loulu that won't get too tall. The bigger species will most definitely be planted out far away from the house.

[Big Eye]

  On 5/21/2022 at 11:34 PM, Tyrone said:

They’re all different depending on species. Obviously the bigger the palm the further they’ll go. Palms are generally not deep rooted plants either, with some exceptions. I believe Bismarckia can go deep. 

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Pritchardia will be the only palms that will be planted in the ground. I know, I know. How boring. Lol. The plan is to plant every Hawaiian species that I can get my hands on and plant them in groves so as to look how Hawaii was before the arrival of humans. Well, that's just what I have pictured in my head.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond!

[Big Eye]

  On 5/22/2022 at 12:06 AM, rprimbs said:

We had our septic redone last year.  I have trees near the tank with no problem.  This is the original tank that was installed in 1960.  We have at least one tree (A willow, of all things...) that is sixty years old twenty feet from the tank.

Our leach lines were the old style segmented pottery lines.  The sewage would seep out between the segments.  I have two very large oak trees on either end of the lines.  The oak tree roots curiously were not a problem.  My lines got clogged by the roots from some large bougainvilleas.

Tree roots don't really seek out water, they follow it.  If the water makes it's way to the roots then the roots will grow vigorously in the soil that is wet.  Palm trees tend to have "compact" dense roots.  I doubt that you would get much trouble from palm trees.

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That's good news! We live in a very wet and rainy environment so I'm hoping that the roots won't have to travel very far to find water as there is always plenty of it. Forgot to add that part in the original post as well.

Thanks for chiming in!

[Big Eye]

  On 5/22/2022 at 1:11 AM, ahosey01 said:

I am aligned with most of the PTers on this subject.  Palm tree roots are generally noninvasive.  I think you're fine.

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Thanks for adding to this thread! As stated previously, it was hard to find info regarding palms and septic systems other than "do not plant trees anywhere near septics" which in turn got me even more worried of its placement. I feel better knowing that palm roots are not generally invasive. I will most definitely steer clear of the leach field for the rest of the plantings in the future.

Thanks!

[ahosey01]

  On 5/23/2022 at 7:50 PM, Big Eye said:

Thanks for adding to this thread! As stated previously, it was hard to find info regarding palms and septic systems other than "do not plant trees anywhere near septics" which in turn got me even more worried of its placement. I feel better knowing that palm roots are not generally invasive. I will most definitely steer clear of the leach field for the rest of the plantings in the future.

Thanks!

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This approach is obviously safe but if it was me in AZ where water is scarce, I'd plant specifically in the leach field! lol

[Big Eye]

Also, just wanted to add that I measured the Pritchardia to the "distribution box" which is the second pipe coming out of the ground in the background at 16'-6" away. I believe that the leach lines start immediately after that pipe and moves away from the palm for another 24' or so. Just a little more info for you guys.

Thanks!

[Big Eye]

  On 5/23/2022 at 7:51 PM, ahosey01 said:

This approach is obviously safe but if it was me in AZ where water is scarce, I'd plant specifically in the leach field! lol

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That makes sense! Guess I should be grateful that we don't need to worry about that here. Then again, we have to deal with moldy driveways year round with all the rain we've been getting! Lol.

[Alan_Tampa]

Just make sure your distribution box is safe and don't worry about anything much else. Ask me how I know. Nothing to do with roots. Was smashed. 

[Big Eye]

  On 5/23/2022 at 8:07 PM, Alan_Tampa said:

Just make sure your distribution box is safe and don't worry about anything much else. Ask me how I know. Nothing to do with roots. Was smashed. 

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Thanks! Will do! Planning on at least placing rocks around the pipes as a visual marker on where it is. We are planning on bringing in some fill to level the ground a bit so the piping will be flush to the finish grade. Will have to cut the cleanout for the tank since that one is quite a big longer as you can see in the pictures.

[Kailua_Krish]

  On 5/23/2022 at 7:29 PM, Big Eye said:

Pritchardia will be the only palms that will be planted in the ground. I know, I know. How boring. Lol. The plan is to plant every Hawaiian species that I can get my hands on and plant them in groves so as to look how Hawaii was before the arrival of humans. Well, that's just what I have pictured in my head.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond!

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Love that idea. Hopefully in the future your trees can be a source of seeds to repopulate elsewhere!

[edbrown_III]

I had a few plants too close --- roots didnt hurt the field but leachate killed the plants --- wasnt the regular waste but bleach and someother stuff I put in it to clean out some blockages ---also other folks in the house where flushing other chemicals down ---- too high pH or low ( from drain cleaners will kill trees --- lost a Encephalartos lebomboensis and Allagoptera  and a few others 

Ed

[Big Eye]

  On 5/24/2022 at 3:09 AM, Kailua_Krish said:

Love that idea. Hopefully in the future your trees can be a source of seeds to repopulate elsewhere!

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That's a thought! Think I remember seeing a post from Tim (realarch), a while back saying that he's been propagating seeds from his own loulu and out planting them right behind his house as there is a good chance they were there before. I have a LONG while before any of that happens as I'm just hoping to keep them alive until that time comes. Lol.

[Kailua_Krish]

  On 5/24/2022 at 8:41 PM, Big Eye said:

That's a thought! Think I remember seeing a post from Tim (realarch), a while back saying that he's been propagating seeds from his own loulu and out planting them right behind his house as there is a good chance they were there before. I have a LONG while before any of that happens as I'm just hoping to keep them alive until that time comes. Lol.

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Im waiting on my P. bakeri to seed (its got a long way to go) so I can donate to the local restoration efforts around the SE side of Oahu (several places trying to get rid of haole koa and replant native dry forest). Many people are substituting in P. hillibrantii in forest restoration here due to how hard the true native species are to come by which is unfortunate.

[Big Eye]

  On 5/24/2022 at 4:51 AM, edbrown_III said:

I had a few plants too close --- roots didnt hurt the field but leachate killed the plants --- wasnt the regular waste but bleach and someother stuff I put in it to clean out some blockages ---also other folks in the house where flushing other chemicals down ---- too high pH or low ( from drain cleaners will kill trees --- lost a Encephalartos lebomboensis and Allagoptera  and a few others 

Ed

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Hi Ed - That's what I've read as well. I'm hoping with the leach lines being 16'+ away and also on a very gradual slope that the waste water won't get too close to the roots or flow back towards the house. I wonder if there are ecofriendly alternatives to flush down the toilets for maintenance?

Thanks for your reply!

[Big Eye]

  On 5/24/2022 at 8:59 PM, Kailua_Krish said:

Im waiting on my P. bakeri to seed (its got a long way to go) so I can donate to the local restoration efforts around the SE side of Oahu (several places trying to get rid of haole koa and replant native dry forest). Many people are substituting in P. hillibrantii in forest restoration here due to how hard the true native species are to come by which is unfortunate.

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That is awesome of you! And I agree whole heartedly. I don't know why we don't use more native loulu in our plantings state wide. This is one of the bigger reasons that I want to plant strictly native Hawaiian plants. To get them into other's yards where they can be admired and hopefully used more!

If you're up to it, please post your bakeri! Would love to see it if you are willing to share.

Thanks!