Aquatic Habitat

[BeyondTheGarden]

I have an artificial pond and stream that is central to my jungle. I currently have goldfish, Japanese trapdoor snails (very small), water hyacinth, pickerel (Pontederia dilatata), some unknown temperate water lily...and some stringy moss that isn't too bad to maintain by hand.  And some kind of rush. 

I'd like to add more plants and animals and turn it into more of a micro ecosystem.  I'm looking at Peltandra virginica and tadpoles, will have to order both of these online I think.  I am open to any and all suggestions. I'd like the frogs to stick around but the stream water moves quick, not sure how to set up a slow moving/stagnant area just for them.  

I had Koi... may get some again now that I put a cinder block in there... the old ones got got. 

Anything else I can add?  If you live in Florida and want to ship me an alligator.. . (That's a joke, WA would never allow alligators)

Edited May 1, 2022 by Jesse PNW

[redbeard917]

Just curious, what is the pinnate palm on the right in the last photo?

When I worked for a landscaping company, the easy method for creating artificial ponds was to excavate the dirt, contour it as needed, cover it with a pond liner, and then cover that with an inch or two of concrete (no rebar or wire, we weren't worried about cracks because it had a pond liner underneath), embed natural rocks for aesthetics, then trim the excess pond liner. Eventually things like moss and maidenhair ferns would grow on the exposed concrete. Yours is already complete and quite beautiful, but I say this because I wonder if you could create a deeper pool alongside the stream for things like frogs and tadpoles to live in. Often we would make an area that sloped gently from an inch deep to about a foot, to attract birds. Another option would be to add a still pool adjacent to your stream, perhaps with a waterfall which could even piggyback off your existing pump. I bet that tadpoles would find their way there without your help.

[BeyondTheGarden]

Nice.  I like the idea of a separate pond.  Would just take some scheming to figure out where I could fit it.  I like the concrete/rock plan as well. 

The pinnate palms are Butia... odorata until I have evidence that they're some other species. 

Thanks. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Jesse PNW

[amh]

Natives to consider:

Pacifastacus leniusculus

Dicamptodon copei

Rubus spectabilis

Menyanthes trifoliata

Non-natives:

Canna flaccida

Canna glauca

[Silas_Sancona]

36 minutes ago, redbeard917 said:

Just curious, what is the pinnate palm on the right in the last photo?

When I worked for a landscaping company, the easy method for creating artificial ponds was to excavate the dirt, contour it as needed, cover it with a pond liner, and then cover that with an inch or two of concrete (no rebar or wire, we weren't worried about cracks because it had a pond liner underneath), embed natural rocks for aesthetics, then trim the excess pond liner. Eventually things like moss and maidenhair ferns would grow on the exposed concrete. Yours is already complete and quite beautiful, but I say this because I wonder if you could create a deeper pool alongside the stream for things like frogs and tadpoles to live in. Often we would make an area that sloped gently from an inch deep to about a foot, to attract birds. Another option would be to add a still pool adjacent to your stream, perhaps with a waterfall which could even piggyback off your existing pump. I bet that tadpoles would find their way there without your help.

Agree, In California, the Pacific Tree / Chorus Frogs would turn up in backyard ponds, pools, etc w/ out being introduced.. Should be very plentiful in the PAC NW. That said, if there are large fish in a pond, Frogs won't be as plentiful.  Deeper ponds will attract native Bufonidae and Bull Frogs. 

Here, you get a few sp. of True toads and Spadefoot sp., esp near ponds w/ deep gravel surrounding them. Our tree frogs stick to canyon streams rather than backyard ponds in  the 'burbs.

[BeyondTheGarden]

56 minutes ago, amh said:

Natives to consider:

Pacifastacus leniusculus

As much as I love boiled Crawdad with a little salt, I don't think my fish would feel the same way!  

59 minutes ago, amh said:

Dicamptodon copei

Now we're talking!  But where to find them.....  Not available online it seems...

 

[Silas_Sancona]

5 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

 

Now we're talking!  But where to find them.....  Not available online it seems...

 

Likely wouldn't survive in a pond, Prefer cold streams, Mountain Lakes w/ lots of dissolved Oxygen.  Local Newt sp, ..possibly Tiger Salamander ( if native to the area ) would be better suited.

[amh]

22 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

As much as I love boiled Crawdad with a little salt, I don't think my fish would feel the same way!  

 

The crayfish could help clean up the habitat some and would likely leave all but the smallest fish alone.

 

Now we're talking!  But where to find them.....  Not available online it seems...

 

Going to have to go out and find them in the wild; on private property, of course.

 

12 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Likely wouldn't survive in a pond, Prefer cold streams, Mountain Lakes w/ lots of dissolved Oxygen.  Local Newt sp, ..possibly Tiger Salamander ( if native to the area ) would be better suited.

Situational dependent, but I'm surprised the local salamanders haven't found the pond yet. Maybe too sunny.

Probably the same requirements with the signal crayfish.

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, amh said:

 

 

Probably the same requirements with the signal crayfish.

Could find Crayfish in pretty much any creek , pond, etc in CA.. More so where water was warmer and somewhat slower moving..  Used to catch them for fish bait.. Wont eat anything that is " the vacuum " of the sea, pond, etc, Leave that stuff for the birds / big fish, lol..

[BeyondTheGarden]

I used to catch crawdads all the time as a kid in Missouri.  Center Creek, I knew a great spot down the bluff (that's redneck for "cliff") behind my grandpa's house.  Used to ride my bike there and camp on the bend in the creek with nothing but a sleeping bag, steel pot, matches, and a fishing pole.  We even used to get find crawdads in drainage ditches in the spring time when it rained heavily.  

I'd love to find some crawdads up here.  I'd probably put a few in my garden stream and see if they (and the goldfish) survived. 

[amh]

I know it's a bit off topic, but has anyone grown Taxodium distichum in the PNW?

[BeyondTheGarden]

That's a good question, it seems like Banana Joe had some up on Salt spring Island if I remember right.  I grew up in Missouri and used to see them on the east side of the state. I should probably give them a try but I don't think they would tolerate our dry summers unless they were in a pond or riparian location. 

[Silas_Sancona]

4 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

That's a good question, it seems like Banana Joe had some up on Salt spring Island if I remember right.  I grew up in Missouri and used to see them on the east side of the state. I should probably give them a try but I don't think they would tolerate our dry summers unless they were in a pond or riparian location. 

Straight T. distichum might not tolerate as much drought, but,  T. mucronatum ( Montezuma Cypress ),  and the " China Balds " < Cross between the two sp. >  will tolerate drier conditions.

[amh]

11 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

That's a good question, it seems like Banana Joe had some up on Salt spring Island if I remember right.  I grew up in Missouri and used to see them on the east side of the state. I should probably give them a try but I don't think they would tolerate our dry summers unless they were in a pond or riparian location. 

Just curiosity. T. distichum is a fairly fast growing, colorful deciduous conifer that grows in a wide range of habitats, yet I haven't heard of anyone on the pacific coast growing any.

 

7 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Straight T. distichum might not tolerate as much drought, but,  T. mucronatum ( Montezuma Cypress ),  and the " China Balds " < Cross between the two sp. >  will tolerate drier conditions.

Bald cypress is a common landscaping tree in Texas, and while it grows best around water, trees will grow in dry areas that frequently go 4 to 6 months without rainfall.

[Silas_Sancona]

6 minutes ago, amh said:

Just curiosity. T. distichum is a fairly fast growing, colorful deciduous conifer that grows in a wide range of habitats, yet I haven't heard of anyone on the pacific coast growing any.

 

 

Not super common, but used to see some around the Bay Area..  Montezuma are planted all over S. Cal. 

Never seen China Balds.. But have heard they're planted a bit there in TX.  Article from Dave Creech ( posted the link here in the past  ): https://dcreechsite.com/2017/01/03/taxodium-x-lanana-born-in-america-and-mexico-improved-in-china/

Appears Balds can be grown / survive all the way up to British Columbia  and further inland as well.  https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/49666-Taxodium-distichum

[amh]

On 5/3/2022 at 6:01 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Not super common, but used to see some around the Bay Area..  Montezuma are planted all over S. Cal. 

Never seen China Balds.. But have heard they're planted a bit there in TX.  Article from Dave Creech ( posted the link here in the past  ): https://dcreechsite.com/2017/01/03/taxodium-x-lanana-born-in-america-and-mexico-improved-in-china/

Appears Balds can be grown / survive all the way up to British Columbia  and further inland as well.  https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/49666-Taxodium-distichum

Thanks for the map link.

[Chester B]

I wouldn't buy any tadpoles as these will be non natives, and that is real problem with amphibians out this way.   The bullfrogs are eating their way through our natives, so don't want to add to the problem.

If the habitat is suitable the tree frogs or the red legged frogs will set up home.  All the small garden ponds in my neighborhood are all loaded with tadpoles right now, but these have very little water flow.

For fish you can add mosquito fish (Gambusia affinis), they too are non native but readily found along the shore of many ponds/lakes in the area.  They are closely related to guppies but no real color.  Other fish that can survive year round outside are "rosy reds" (Pimephales promelas) and Batfish (Myxocyprinus asiaticus).  The Batfish get big so need deeper water.

You can also try other natives from the Sunfish family, like Pumpkinseeds, Bluegill, Green Sunfish, etc.  However I don't think these will play well with goldfish especially during breeding season.

If you are willing to pull the fish in fall and keep them inside over winter it opens up a lot of possibilities.  Many of the live bearing fish due well in ponds and can tolerate cooler temps like Sailfin mollies, swordtails and a few other species.  These will get along with gold fish.

Alternatively you can forgo the goldfish and keep many of the Central American cichlids out for about 8 months of the year.

Crayfish you will rarely see so I don't think it's really worth the time.  Plus they are a favorite food of raccoons and you don't want them spending a lot of time around the pond.

 

[BeyondTheGarden]

@Chester B I was hoping you'd chime in, thanks!  Got some stuff to research now.  i hadn't thought of overwintering fish indoors.  

[BeyondTheGarden]

Small victories....

 

[Chester B]

Hopefully that one is just the start. Once they find a suitable territory they may not want to leave. Some of the very small ponds in my neighborhood attract a surprisingly good number of frogs. 

[BeyondTheGarden]

Using the google machine I believe that's Pseudacris regilla.  Looks like the same type of frog who hung out in my greenhouse all last summer.  Unfortunately that one died last fall, found him/her in the ventilation fan.  

Cool that this one was on a Butia frond, he hung out for a couple hours in the same spot.  

Now if I could just figure out a way to keep the chickens and ducks out.... they've smashed down a few small ferns and they keep knocking over small pots... I wonder if cayenne powder would keep them from pecking up the ground.

[amh]

13 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

Using the google machine I believe that's Pseudacris regilla.  Looks like the same type of frog who hung out in my greenhouse all last summer.  Unfortunately that one died last fall, found him/her in the ventilation fan.  

Cool that this one was on a Butia frond, he hung out for a couple hours in the same spot.  

Now if I could just figure out a way to keep the chickens and ducks out.... they've smashed down a few small ferns and they keep knocking over small pots... I wonder if cayenne powder would keep them from pecking up the ground.

Cayenne might work on the ducks, but chickens love hot peppers.

[BeyondTheGarden]

Well then I guess I'll have to get a couple alligators....just little ones....