Miracles never cease in these parts

[jwitt]

And no, the unprotected 7f these saw was not my concern.   Will let this "stew", more to the story in due time 

 

[Jtee]

Are those filiferas in Rio Rancho?

[jwitt]

Yes. Hopefully curved.

[jwitt]

This is a pic of the same palms from last year(March2021).  The lack of leaves this year(2022-pics above) is not winter damage as they entered winter nearly leafless.   Never protected.

To be continued......

 

[Jtee]

That’s cool. How long in ground and how big were they when planted?

[jwitt]

11 hours ago, Jtee said:

That’s cool. How long in ground and how big were they when planted?

Seeded directly into ground in spring of 2014.

[jwitt]

These palms entered winter with about 3 weak/deformed leaves each and "severe" root damage! I thought they surely would be dead stumps before spring arrived(actually before fall arrived).

But in the end this turned out to be the best "natural" course for the upcoming winter concerning the ability to survive. At least for this species(filifera).

 

More to the story.........stay tuned

[WSimpson]

Did a fire go through that area ?

Will

[jwitt]

42 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

Did a fire go through that area ?

Will

No.  

But that happens to the wild strands of filifera and they have the ability to "hibernate" or "go dormant" naturally.  The natives used this very technique(setting fire to filifera) to induce flowering and therefore seed, which they used as a food source.

Ultimately, this dormancy is partly what allows a filifera to survive a documented -15f(or even back to back nights of -11f) in New Mexico but succumb to a single 5f in Dallas.

......

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by jwitt
Additional info

[jwitt]

I previously mentioned curved filifera. I have always marveled when these massive behomeths show a curve.  Just a personal thing that gets my goat.

Mostly when one thinks of a filifera, they think straight. Well not so much naturally.  And naturally is in a grove.

Naturally growing in a grove, the curve shows.  Take a look.  More to follow..........

 

[MarkbVet]

Beautiful trees!  I love the look of Washingtonias; i've got a W. "filibusta" that i'm hoping will embody the best traits of both species (it's just a baby, cute seedling...trying valiantly to push out a first palmate leaf.)  Ah, baby steps... ;-)

[jwitt]

8 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Beautiful trees!  I love the look of Washingtonias; i've got a W. "filibusta" that i'm hoping will embody the best traits of both species (it's just a baby, cute seedling...trying valiantly to push out a first palmate leaf.)  Ah, baby steps... ;-)

Truthfully, mine are filibusta also.  They are hand sourced with decades of attained knowledge(also known as failure). 

But in the end, they are as "pure" with proven cold hardiness. 

From my personal experience, in the ground as soon as possible(seed) is the way to go. At least that is my experience in my climate.

This will be a somewhat long and maybe winding post, possibly days long........

 

 

[MarkbVet]

8 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Truthfully, mine are filibusta also.  They are hand sourced with decades of attained knowledge(also known as failure). 

But in the end, they are as "pure" with proven cold hardiness. 

From my personal experience, in the ground as soon as possible(seed) is the way to go. At least that is my experience in my climate.

This will be a somewhat long and maybe winding post, possibly days long........

 

 

I'd love to plant all my palms, Sabals like deep roots early on too.  But... gotta keep em in pots for another 3 years or so until I retire and move south... then I'll have loads of time to 'putter' with the plants, a large chuck of land to plant them in, and lots of hot/sunny weather in the spring thru fall.  Yay!  

[jwitt]

So I start "groves" with seed directly sown into the soil to get my curved desire.  At the end of the day, I love the straight arrows too. Remember, I am on a mission and I have a problem. Most of us palmholics do.

   Here is one I did by planting seeds in 2013. This picture is from 3/2015.  These are not the "miracle"palms at the beginning of the post. 

Near the top of the post, I mistated my planting of the seeds as 2014. It was spring(March)2013. 

I do not actively provide protection. I do passively provide some mass(rock) in this climate(I am a mile high in elevation) for younger specimans in my 7b climate.

On a side note, the clump to the right is med palm that survived -10f in 2011. Still there today. Never protected, don't do it. Will explain later.

This post will continue and delve into how and why I got to where I did. Stay tuned....

Edited April 7, 2022 by jwitt

[MarkbVet]

17 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Truthfully, mine are filibusta also.  They are hand sourced with decades of attained knowledge(also known as failure). 

But in the end, they are as "pure" with proven cold hardiness. 

From my personal experience, in the ground as soon as possible(seed) is the way to go. At least that is my experience in my climate.

This will be a somewhat long and maybe winding post, possibly days long........

 

 

I got my filibusta from Desertscape in eastern Oregon.  Their nursery is in zone 6b I think, very dry which helps, but quite cold in winters.  They claim these particular plants come from very cold hardy stock from New Mexico, and that they survive well at their cold nursery.  We're wetter in western Oregon but considerably less cold;  So. Oregon is best of both:  warmer even than where I'm at, but much drier than the Portland area too.   True Mediterranean climate down there,  should be great for a lot of the palms I want to try.  So...I'm collecting lol.  

[jwitt]

20 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

I got my filibusta from Desertscape in eastern Oregon.  Their nursery is in zone 6b I think, very dry which helps, but quite cold in winters.  They claim these particular plants come from very cold hardy stock from New Mexico, and that they survive well at their cold nursery.  

Sadly, I believe any sourced NM stock is suspect.  

How can it not be when these are survivers from 2011?  These robustas saw -5f.  They grow and bloom today.  Oh, they also did the same before 2011.  This is true of all filifera in NM that bloom and set seed(robustas are nearby). Truth be told,  I know of three, but I suspect these are not your source.

And at the end of the day, a"hair" of red may be needed.

Sorry.  Doesn't mean yours are less pure, just suspect. ....

Edited April 7, 2022 by jwitt
Clarification

[Jtee]

6 hours ago, jwitt said:

Sadly, I believe any sourced NM stock is suspect.  

How can it not be when these are survivers from 2011?  These robustas saw -5f.  They grow and bloom today.  Oh, they also did the same before 2011.  This is true of all filifera in NM that bloom and set seed(robustas are nearby). Truth be told,  I know of three, but I suspect these are not your source.

And at the end of the day, a"hair" of red may be needed.

Sorry.  Doesn't mean yours are less pure, just suspect. ....

I love those Las Cruces palms. I wonder how long they’ve been there. I remember seeing those exact palms about 15 years ago. I also love the super fat trunked filiferas there. They look so much fatter up close than in a picture. 

[teddytn]

9 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

I got my filibusta from Desertscape in eastern Oregon.  Their nursery is in zone 6b I think, very dry which helps, but quite cold in winters.  They claim these particular plants come from very cold hardy stock from New Mexico, and that they survive well at their cold nursery.  We're wetter in western Oregon but considerably less cold;  So. Oregon is best of both:  warmer even than where I'm at, but much drier than the Portland area too.   True Mediterranean climate down there,  should be great for a lot of the palms I want to try.  So...I'm collecting lol.  

I’m a big fan of desertscape, they offer all kinds of goodies for sale. Yeah they claim everything they sell, they also grow at their place. Would be cool to walk around there for sure 

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, Jtee said:

I love those Las Cruces palms. I wonder how long they’ve been there. I remember seeing those exact palms about 15 years ago. I also love the super fat trunked filiferas there. They look so much fatter up close than in a picture. 

I've seen robustas ever since my first visit in 1976 and probably every year since then.  

That said, I do not know the year these specific palms were planted.

[jwitt]

I exaggerated a bit when I claim my palms are a mile high.  The base is at 5273'.  The top of the leaves are greater than seven feet tall(including the trachy). The base of my fence is exactly 5280'. So....

The pic is from February 10. Seven degrees happened three nights earlier. The filifera to the left pretty much ended up dying back to the spear(took about a month).  

My curved miracle filifera can slightly be seen behind the trachy.  The deformed, mini leaves can be seen.  In spring of 2021(last year)  the curved filifera we're more full with leaves than the filifera to the left.  So while I was not much concerned about this winter relating to the cold, they were so weak entering winter, my concern was how long can a filifera truly "hibernate".  They truly only saw 2 months of uninterrupted growth last year.

So what happened?

To be continued....

 

[teddytn]

@jwitt you’ve got my attention for sure with this one….

[MarkbVet]

15 hours ago, jwitt said:

Sadly, I believe any sourced NM stock is suspect.  

How can it not be when these are survivers from 2011?  These robustas saw -5f.  They grow and bloom today.  Oh, they also did the same before 2011.  This is true of all filifera in NM that bloom and set seed(robustas are nearby). Truth be told,  I know of three, but I suspect these are not your source.

And at the end of the day, a"hair" of red may be needed.

Sorry.  Doesn't mean yours are less pure, just suspect. ....

Yeah, not sure if they hybridize their own 'filibustas' or not... their W. filifera stock was seed from filiferas growing in N. Mexico high desert (cold) area.  Their filibusta  seeds/seedlings I'm not sure about the sourcing.   Supposedly hardy at their cold-climate Oregon nursery though,  which is a good start!  They claim that the parent trees (W. filifera) have survived minus 12 F, with frond burn but quick recovery.   

[jwitt]

5 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Yeah, not sure if they hybridize their own 'filibustas' or not... their W. filifera stock was seed from filiferas growing in N. Mexico high desert (cold) area.  Their filibusta  seeds/seedlings I'm not sure about the sourcing.   Supposedly hardy at their cold-climate Oregon nursery though,  which is a good start!  They claim that the parent trees (W. filifera) have survived minus 12 F, with frond burn but quick recovery.   

I mentioned that I know of no seeding filifera in NM that are not in the vicinity of robustas pre or post 2011, save for 3.(trees)

Does not mean they don't exist.

I know of no filifera or location NM that has filifera, that saw a -12f in 2011.  I am citing official(NWS) temps. 

Regardless, if they have seeds from a NM 2011 survivor, it is a hardy stock. 

My personal feeling, to be assured a robusta free seed, it must come from outside NM.

 

Save 3 trees.....

 

P.s. the 2011 event here personally if I were to describe it, was well beyond "frond burn, as there was no green any where on these palms, including trachy. There was little doubt that all was lost and it was "some" time before any green appeared. I infact documented one tree( filifera) that did not show any leaf or green until July 4!  That is one of the three I would consider to be in a robusta free area.  That tree first bloomed and set seed last year.

[jwitt]

5 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Yeah, not sure if they hybridize their own 'filibustas' or not... their W. filifera stock was seed from filiferas growing in N. Mexico high desert (cold) area.  Their filibusta  seeds/seedlings I'm not sure about the sourcing.   Supposedly hardy at their cold-climate Oregon nursery though,  which is a good start!  They claim that the parent trees (W. filifera) have survived minus 12 F, with frond burn but quick recovery.   

I take it all back. I was thinking alive present day palms 

There was a somewhat skinny trunked filifera survivor in Roswell. It no longer exists. Forgot about it. 

It can be seen on street view. Taco Bell, north Main, Roswell, NM. 

Roswell saw -12f.

I would definitely say that would be robusta pollen free

Could be....

[MarkbVet]

56 minutes ago, jwitt said:

I take it all back. I was thinking alive present day palms 

There was a somewhat skinny trunked filifera survivor in Roswell. It no longer exists. Forgot about it. 

It can be seen on street view. Taco Bell, north Main, Roswell, NM. 

Roswell saw -12f.

I would definitely say that would be robusta pollen free

Could be....

I'm not at all worried about how pure a W. filifera will be.   Many populations (not just in N. Mexico) are likely hybridized to some extent in the U.S.  But I never wanted a pure filifera; I ordered a 'filibusta' hybrid (deliberately hybridized) from the nursery due to its larger size than robusta, likely more wet-tolerance and faster growing than pure filifera, but more cold tolerant than W. robusta.   I probably won't try a pure robusta or filifera (though the latter would be more likely to survive in So. Oregon).

[jwitt]

9 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

I'm not at all worried about how pure a W. filifera will be.   Many populations (not just in N. Mexico) are likely hybridized to some extent in the U.S.  But I never wanted a pure filifera; I ordered a 'filibusta' hybrid (deliberately hybridized) from the nursery due to its larger size than robusta, likely more wet-tolerance and faster growing than pure filifera, but more cold tolerant than W. robusta.   I probably won't try a pure robusta or filifera (though the latter would be more likely to survive in So. Oregon).

The fact a Washingtonia lived in Roswell for the amount of time it did is mind blowing.  The fact it survived 2011 and continued for several years is a miracle. You are talking world record or at least documented cold hardiness. Period. (Alamogordo, Corrales, Rio Rancho- being the other -10f or greater cities).

I lost track of it and it was eventually gone.  I did write about it and post some street view pics on palmtalk. 

It was in the SE part of the taco bell property on N Main.  Other than a Sabal Mexicana In Roswell, I know of no other Roswell survivors. I had "connections" in Roswell around that time.

[jwitt]

I have a problem, some may call it an obsession...maybe even a disease

My curverd filifera infection begins

Moved to NM as a 6th grader. Went to southern NM/El Paso at that age and continued throughout my life.  I was into weather records(climate) and population. 

Along the way I always saw these palm trees. Was infatuated with the massive ones I saw that were green in the winter.  I just knew in my gut that if something like that could be grown on a Northside down there, it could happen on a Southside in ABQ  the climate is not that much different. And the weather records proved it.  

-8f 1962 El Paso(what filifera can live thru that)

Enter my go to eatery as a kid and teenager....Elmer's/El Paso

Curved caught my eye and stuck through the years, aggravating my disease. 

They even survived the 2011 0f in El Paso(we won't mention 1962).

Sadly Elmer's is no more. But the curve sticks and the disease progresses.

 

Back to the story on miracle and root damage in due time.....

 

 

[KDubU]

How far South from in NM will a W. filifera survive? @jwitt I see you are in Rio Ranchos which is on the NW side of Albuquerque right? I am surprised they can survive the cold and dryness. I guess the latter could be addressed with drippers..

Edited April 8, 2022 by KDubU

[Jtee]

2 hours ago, KDubU said:

How far South from in NM will a W. filifera survive? @jwitt I see you are in Rio Ranchos which is on the NW side of Albuquerque right? I am surprised they can survive the cold and dryness. I guess the latter could be addressed with drippers..

 

4 hours ago, jwitt said:

The fact a Washingtonia lived in Roswell for the amount of time it did is mind blowing.  The fact it survived 2011 and continued for several years is a miracle. You are talking world record or at least documented cold hardiness. Period. (Alamogordo, Corrales, Rio Rancho- being the other -10f or greater cities).

I lost track of it and it was eventually gone.  I did write about it and post some street view pics on palmtalk. 

It was in the SE part of the taco bell property on N Main.  Other than a Sabal Mexicana In Roswell, I know of no other Roswell survivors. I had "connections" in Roswell around that time.

I remember going to Roswell as a kid and eating at that Taco Bell, I always had a memory of there being a palm tree in front, but never seen it again. I didn’t even like palms at the time but I remember it standing out to me, it may have been a big yucca but those are common and a every day sight in NM. So it had to have been a palm, this was probably back in 1994. 

[jwitt]

4 hours ago, KDubU said:

How far South from in NM will a W. filifera survive? @jwitt I see you are in Rio Ranchos which is on the NW side of Albuquerque right? I am surprised they can survive the cold and dryness. I guess the latter could be addressed with drippers..

Nearly everything here(NM desert) in our landscapes are given supplemental water.  Some by location, near a rainspout,  or low spot(swale) or actively irrigated. 

I saw filifera as a kid starting in 1976 in Truth or Consequences, about 125 miles south here. More as you continued south(Las Cruces/Alamogordo).  In Carlsbad too, but small and never real "healthy" looking.

I heard  of filifera being taken out in 1971 in ABQ..,...

[MarkbVet]

16 hours ago, jwitt said:

The fact a Washingtonia lived in Roswell for the amount of time it did is mind blowing.  The fact it survived 2011 and continued for several years is a miracle. You are talking world record or at least documented cold hardiness. Period. (Alamogordo, Corrales, Rio Rancho- being the other -10f or greater cities).

I lost track of it and it was eventually gone.  I did write about it and post some street view pics on palmtalk. 

It was in the SE part of the taco bell property on N Main.  Other than a Sabal Mexicana In Roswell, I know of no other Roswell survivors. I had "connections" in Roswell around that time.

cute little town....

[jwitt]

Back to 1971. That was Albuquerque's -17f. I moved here in 1976.  By 1979, I was working at a nursery.  I had an interest in palms at this time and I questioned why no hardy palms at work(nursery).  Palms do not grow here and do not ask again, is what the boss(owner) told me. 

Dumb or persistent, I got to know the greenhouse manager.  We discussed palms. Lo and behold, her neighbor has a ten foot trachy and some Washingtonia.  The robusta were protected with a structure and the trachy not protected. The manager indicated she thought the trachy survived 1971.  The  cold hardy bug is set. 

My best friend swears there was a row of filifera at his school(near the present day zoo) that was wiped out in 1971.  So they grew here at one time?  The bug is off the charts.....

Back to my curved filifera, not really great growth and not much trunk growth. They will enter winter in a somewhat weakened state.  

My standalone filifera, has a fattening trunk and much top growth.

Not sure why the pics are sideways.

[jwitt]

Winter temps in my yard forecast. 

 

[ChrisA]

Wow!  I saw that forecast for Albuquerque.  That's pretty early for that kind of weather.  Usually that doesn't start happening until early to mid-December. Sometimes we would hardly have a frost before Thanksgiving.

I'm not sure how I missed this thread early, but reading back through regarding sourcing pure filifera from New Mexico, it seems to me that Truth or Consequences would be a fairly reliable source as I am not aware of any robusta growing there in recent times. There are undoubtedly filibustas that are growing larger now, but I believe as of a few years ago none were of flowering size yet. That's likely changed by now though. What are your thoughts?

These filifera in the screen shot reliably seed every year.  They've got a number of younger ones coming up as well.  These have been there as long as I can remember back to the early 90's. I believe they were even there back in the 70's from what I've been told anecdotally by some older folks.

I had collected seeds from these years ago but am not sure what I did with them.  

[jwitt]

On 11/15/2022 at 7:30 AM, ChrisA said:

Wow!  I saw that forecast for Albuquerque.  That's pretty early for that kind of weather.  Usually that doesn't start happening until early to mid-December. Sometimes we would hardly have a frost before Thanksgiving.

I'm not sure how I missed this thread early, but reading back through regarding sourcing pure filifera from New Mexico, it seems to me that Truth or Consequences would be a fairly reliable source as I am not aware of any robusta growing there in recent times. There are undoubtedly filibustas that are growing larger now, but I believe as of a few years ago none were of flowering size yet. That's likely changed by now though. What are your thoughts?

These filifera in the screen shot reliably seed every year.  They've got a number of younger ones coming up as well.  These have been there as long as I can remember back to the early 90's. I believe they were even there back in the 70's from what I've been told anecdotally by some older folks.

I had collected seeds from these years ago but am not sure what I did with them.  

T or C!  Where to start? What I am going to say may surprise some, maybe not.  I will start out and say that I would be happy, thrilled, and also consider seed from these 2 large, beautiful filifera.  Just not pure.  Not anymore. 

For reference, just zoom in on your picture. Notice the difference leaf color from the parents to offspring. Subtle, yes, but it is there. 

At the age of 11 in 1976, I personally saw the famous t or c filifera. They were not famous then.  I have seen them near yearly since.

That said, I mentioned seeing palms going south starting about T or C.   What I failed to mention, I meant from the interstate (25).  So from the interstate, the first palms I would see was in a place called Las Palomas ~5 miles south of T or C) from probably 2-3 miles away.  You could get a glimpse from the highway(for like 3-4 seconds) if you knew where to look.  These palms rose above the bosque(woods along the Rio Grande).   They had to be at least 30-40 feet tall.  They were 2 washies.  I never seen them up close.  I seen them for decades(1976 til 2006)! That said, I did search all that area in 2016 and could not find them. Probably 2011 is my guess. 

I remember Mexican fan palms in T or C for as long as I have been going.  Never a lot, never real tall, but yet, there they were. 

I think this first  pic displays the hybridization

 pics 3/4 show robusta/hibrid 2011 survivors blocks away.

The second pic(sailorbold's) shows what I believe to be a thinning of the trunk when zoomed in on the offspring to the right. .  Not the class inverted "V". 

The bad news is in the next post

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by jwitt
Delete pic

[jwitt]

Most Albuquerque palmers will know exactly what I am saying about our local weather station called Double Eagle. In fact, if one were to look up ABQ westside/Rio Rancho this is what is referenced.  But in truth, Double Eagle is a cold 6b with corresponding temperatures.  Yet our yards are a cold zone 8 or warm 7b  Double Eagle is no where at all representative of our palm growing areas  

Well back to T or C. Their temperatures are referenced from their airport.  The problem lies in the fact, that airport is over 500' higher than T or C(more than DE to my yard) and further away than Double Eagle is.  So is it really representative?  I won't even mention the body of water nearby.

I will say the -6f in T or C is probably very close due to that event being with wind as opposed to radiational.  Multiple zero events? Maybe not as many as the records indicate.

So the "official" temperatures are questionable in my mind.  

That's not the bad news I was referring to.

The bad news is that when standing, facing, the famous pure(you know when you know-look at the night shot. 

The bad news is the view when you turn around...   

Now you know a little more about T or C

Edited November 17, 2022 by jwitt

[jwitt]

Back locally to the Double Eagle airport temperatures.  My house reports 13f. But in actual temperatures, my palms are near the 27f reported in ABQ, and the same in T or C.  

I question T or C temperatures.

In due time, back to root damage and the recovery. In real time............gonna be a bit longer.....

Edited November 17, 2022 by jwitt

[jwitt]

Today is exactly midwinter in my solar based climate. Tomorrow (Jan 7) the temperatures start the climb towards summer. 

That is a nice way to say winter comes early here. 

So far the palms have seen

2 - 16f

1- 17f

2- 18f

Dozens of 20's

So a little more than half a zone above my  zonal average minimum.(7b)  

Six more weeks!

1/6/22

 

 

 

 

[jwitt]

I mention a trachy I learned about in the 1970's.  Actually there were 3.  I fail to mention the cold that I know they endured. 

There is a town several miles north(4) of Corrales called Bernalillo.  It saw -17f in 11/28/78.  A month before winter.

That cold,  while tempered, affected the area of the trachies.  So they undoubtedly saw much below -10f.  ABQ saw consecutive nights of -6f/-7f .

In fact the mountain tops are warmer during our "palm killer" events.  Further evidence our cold locally does not come down from the mountains as locally we are led to believe.

In fact, the Bernalillo station(5050') is nearly 10f colder than Sandia crest(10678') for all-time coldest.  Sandia crest all-time low of -19f more correlates with ABQ's -17f. Both in 1971.

Meanwhile, Bernalillo clocks in with a -27f on the same date!

My curved filifera adventure continues realtime.  They are growing out of the root damage, but the stress is readily apparent. 

To be continued....next stop.....the missing 2, what I consider robusta pollen free filiferas, seeding age in NM.

Edited January 8, 2023 by jwitt

[jwitt]

I am going to up the robusta pollen free(no robusta within 25 miles) palm count to 4. 

I'll start with the Albuquerque filifera that has set seed for the last 2 years. 

It survived about -10f in 2011.

The one on the left is the seed setter.  While the palm on the right started growing normally after 2011,  the left one did not produce any visible green until the week of 7/4!