Anything other than Roebeliniis?

[Brian M]

First off, thanks to @iDesign for giving me some tips to making computer designs. This is my first image I created and I think it looks pretty good for an amateur .

Now, I'm landscaping the strip between my pool deck and fence and wondering if there is anything better to put there than double (or singles) pygmys? My main goal is giving it a tropical flair while also providing some shield over the top of the fence to provide a little privacy and help drown out the overgrown mess behind me.  It's a fairly narrow spot...roughly a 30' strip, and about 8' wide on the ends tapering into about 5' wide in the center. To the right of the picture in the corner of the yard is a smaller chamaerops humilis (I planted a 7gal two or three years ago). 

The fence line is on the west side of the house and gets direct sunlight from about 9AM until about 4 PM. I don't necessarily want to zone push as this will be part of my main landscaping and don't want to have something I'll have to replace every couple of years.

I'm also going to plant some hibiscus along the fence,  some hawaiian ti red sisters on the outside and some croton petras along the front.

Any and all suggestions are welcome, thanks!

[EPaul]

Hi Brian - I wouldn't plant Phoenix Roebelenii.  Anything under 30 degrees will cause significant frost burn unless it's under canopy.  Phoenix Reclinata is a similar yet larger alternative and has a bit more cold tolerance.  Just beware that both have nasty thorns.  Another option would be a couple of small Chinese Fan Palms (cold tolerant down to about 20).  They usually are grown in clusters at Home Depot or Lowes which provide decent cover after a few years of new growth (if you have room).

Edited March 24, 2022 by EPaul

[Little Tex]

Queens! and Robustas! 

[Little Tex]

Also on the topic of your photoshop, Use the Curvature pen tool for the base of the trunk, Pen tool for the top, and quick select for the leaves. It looks like you used the eraser for the whole thing. Otherwise! good job!

 

[Brian M]

12 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

Also on the topic of your photoshop, Use the Curvature pen tool for the base of the trunk, Pen tool for the top, and quick select for the leaves. It looks like you used the eraser for the whole thing. Otherwise! good job!

Thanks! Luckily I don't plan on making a living out of it!

[Brian M]

27 minutes ago, EPaul said:

Hi Brian - I wouldn't plant Phoenix Roebelenii.  Anything under 30 degrees will cause significant frost burn unless it's under canopy.  Phoenix Reclinata is a similar yet larger alternative and has a bit more cold tolerance.  Just beware that both have nasty thorns.  Another option would be a couple of small Chinese Fan Palms (cold tolerant down to about 20).  They usually are grown in clusters at Home Depot or Lowes which provide decent cover after a few years of new growth (if you have room).

We're in a warmer area of Jax at the beach. My triple roebelinii was unscathed this past cold spell although it's close to the house. The Chinese Fan palm canopy may be too big until they get some height on them.

[EPaul]

35 minutes ago, Brian M said:

We're in a warmer area of Jax at the beach. My triple roebelinii was unscathed this past cold spell although it's close to the house. The Chinese Fan palm canopy may be too big until they get some height on them.

Even by the beach you're still considered 9A, I think it's worthwhile to consider the likelihood of damage if they're out in the open.  Even further south here in Orlando this year, any Roebeliniis that weren't on the side of a house or under canopy have extensive cold damage.  Just keep in mind that Roebillinis are really only considered hardy to 10A. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by EPaul

[Little Tex]

14 minutes ago, EPaul said:

Even by the beach you're still considered 9A, I think it's worthwhile to consider the likelihood of damage if they're out in the open.  Even further south here in Orlando this year, any Roebeliniis that weren't on the side of a house or under canopy have extensive cold damage.  Just keep in mind that Roebillinis are really only considered hardy to 10A. 

Erm.. They may not look the BEST but Robelleni can easily survive 8b when Mature.  In that part of Jacksonville, there are large royals, foxtails, and Triangle palms, I think a pygmy date is fine, Plus If he is going to get them large, and assuming his pool his heated it should be A-OK. They are a few nice ones in H-Town which is 9a. 

[aztropic]

Med fan palms are a trouble free option for that area. Won't grow much taller than the fence so you don't have to worry about them outgrowing the screening purpose they were installed for.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona

[EPaul]

45 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

Erm.. They may not look the BEST but Robelleni can easily survive 8b when Mature.  In that part of Jacksonville, there are large royals, foxtails, and Triangle palms, I think a pygmy date is fine, Plus If he is going to get them large, and assuming his pool his heated it should be A-OK. They are a few nice ones in H-Town which is 9a. 

Agree to disagee.  I couldn't find anything in your source that says it can easily survive down to 8b.  Here is a source that claims 10A cold hardiness: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/ST441.  Also, there is another thread on this very website discussing this topic, which I think is a good read: 

If Brian doesn't want any damage to his palms, like complete defoliation, I would avoid these.

Edited March 24, 2022 by EPaul

[Tracy]

2 hours ago, Brian M said:

I'm landscaping the strip between my pool deck and fence and wondering if there is anything better to put there than double (or singles) pygmys?

Avoid any Phoenix adjacent to a pool as they all have heavily armed petioles, which is a liability in particular if you have kids or will have friends' kids in the pool.  My first thought for fixed height would be Arenga engleri, which clumps and individual stocks will die after flowering so can be removed.  Nice fragrance from blooms, but the leaflets are rigid and can poke, although nothing like the damage you can get from any of the Phoenix species.  I can't speak to how hardy A engleri are in your part of Florida, as the conditions that are cold in Florida and California don't translate, but its worthy of further investigation.  I'm assuming that based on your temperature concerns that the clumping Dypsis species are not a feasible option, otherwise you would want to consider Dypsis onilahensis, Dypsis heteromorpha and Dypsis lutescens as screens.  If Royals, Foxtails and Triangles actually do work there, you could consider one or two of them, but using non-palm complimentary plants down lower, and even some things that might die back when you get your coldest events that can be replanted.  Your anchor plants, the larger palms you select would be the cold hardy ones suited to your zone.

[Chester B]

Sabal "Louisiana",  S brazoriensis and S "Birmingham" are all intermediate sized palms, but they may be a bit slow growing for your needs.

 

[Little Tex]

Mules? No fruit in the pool. At one house I lived at there were two pear trees adjacent to the pool and t was a major pain to clean because they SINK

 

[Palm Tree Jim]

1 hour ago, Tracy said:

Avoid any Phoenix adjacent to a pool as they all have heavily armed petioles, which is a liability in particular if you have kids or will have friends' kids in the pool.  My first thought for fixed height would be Arenga engleri, which clumps and individual stocks will die after flowering so can be removed.  Nice fragrance from blooms, but the leaflets are rigid and can poke, although nothing like the damage you can get from any of the Phoenix species.  I can't speak to how hardy A engleri are in your part of Florida, as the conditions that are cold in Florida and California don't translate, but its worthy of further investigation.  I'm assuming that based on your temperature concerns that the clumping Dypsis species are not a feasible option, otherwise you would want to consider Dypsis onilahensis, Dypsis heteromorpha and Dypsis lutescens as screens.  If Royals, Foxtails and Triangles actually do work there, you could consider one or two of them, but using non-palm complimentary plants down lower, and even some things that might die back when you get your coldest events that can be replanted.  Your anchor plants, the larger palms you select would be the cold hardy ones suited to your zone.

Excellent advice above. And I would also consider how much debris would come from the palms you finally decide to plant.

I hate having seeds fall into my pool.

[sonoranfans]

I had roebelinii's survive a short(overnight) cold snap to 22F in 9a gilbert AZ in the open, all green was gone even leafbases, and they regrew from the underground trunk but it took 2 seasons for full recovery of all leaves.  In 9a they could get hit just about every year.  And the confusion on cold hardiness for many palms is often a short cold snap like out west where they tolerate lower temps vs longer advective cold events that often occur in florida.  Check out the freeze damage section of this forum they get leaf burn starting at 27F:

 

[Brian M]

45 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

I had roebelinii's survive a short(overnight) cold snap to 22F in 9a gilbert AZ in the open, all green was gone even leafbases, and they regrew from the underground trunk but it took 2 seasons for full recovery of all leaves.  In 9a they could get hit just about every year.  And the confusion on cold hardiness for many palms is often a short cold snap like out west where they tolerate lower temps vs longer advective cold events that often occur in florida.  Check out the freeze damage section of this forum they get leaf burn starting at 27F:

 

I would definitely say their hardiness is variable. We were down to 25-26 this past cold snap and there are plenty I see with burns. That being said, there are also some in the neighborhood with 10-12' of trunk which have been there for a good while and have seen mid 20's multiple times. It's hard to find temp data for my zip (32250) for the 2010 freeze but the coldest I could find since 2011 was 25 which happens every few years.

[Tracy]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

I had roebelinii's survive a short(overnight) cold snap to 22F in 9a gilbert AZ in the open, all green was gone even leafbases, and they regrew from the underground trunk but it took 2 seasons for full recovery of all leaves.

Since those of us in the West are comparing apples and oranges when we talk about climate zones by the numbers, what are some appropriate alternative palms you would suggest?  I like the comments about something that won't be dropping a bunch of fruit in the pool and go back to my suggestion of avoiding palms with spines due to placement next to the pool deck.  My neighbor has Archonotphoenix cunninghamiana between our shared fence and their pool, so to avoid fruit in the pool, they just cut down the inflorescence as soon as they pop out.  I know very well, because about half of the fallen inflorescence end up on my side coming down on my palms.  I'm not suggesting that species, just pointing out that with a little work, you don't have to worry about the palm fruit in the pool.  Any clumping Chamadoreas that can handle the cold spells in that climate zone, such as costariciana, hooperiana? 

[Brian M]

8 minutes ago, Tracy said:

Since those of us in the West are comparing apples and oranges when we talk about climate zones by the numbers, what are some appropriate alternative palms you would suggest?  I like the comments about something that won't be dropping a bunch of fruit in the pool and go back to my suggestion of avoiding palms with spines due to placement next to the pool deck.  My neighbor has Archonotphoenix cunninghamiana between our shared fence and their pool, so to avoid fruit in the pool, they just cut down the inflorescence as soon as they pop out.  I know very well, because about half of the fallen inflorescence end up on my side coming down on my palms.  I'm not suggesting that species, just pointing out that with a little work, you don't have to worry about the palm fruit in the pool.  Any clumping Chamadoreas that can handle the cold spells in that climate zone, such as costariciana, hooperiana? 

Don't quote me butI think the problem with Chamadoreas, aside from any temperature concerns, is the amount of sunlight. That area is full blast sun all day and I believe most of those like some shade if not all filtered light.

Like you mentioned in your previous post, arenga engleri do grow here as do acoelorrhaphe wrightii but I believe either will be too large for the area.

I think my best bet will be to get some more chamaerops humilis. Or possibly some sort of a yucca.

[Tracy]

10 minutes ago, Brian M said:

I think my best bet will be to get some more chamaerops humilis.

Ask my wife about picking spines from Chamaerops humilis petioles out of my scalp.  They can take up a pretty large amount of space too.  Going in and out of the gate on that side of the house used to be dangerous, but fortunately the fronds are overhead now for the most part.  I still have to remove suckers from the one below about once a year so that it doesn't become too large a clump. 

[Brian M]

18 minutes ago, Tracy said:

Ask my wife about picking spines from Chamaerops humilis petioles out of my scalp.

 

I can relate. I usually get scratched up pretty good trying to clean sycamore leaves that get stuck in between the fronds.

[NickJames]

for some of the replies, there are robellinis all around Jacksonville Beach as we type with zero damage from this winter  

I tend to think that even a drop of hybridized blood might help them or something because I know of specimens that have survived brief 19 degrees with little to no damage, and others that outright died at 26.

back to your question…my friend @shminbabe is growing archontophoenix palms very well over in Atlantic Beach. Maybe try that. Where exactly in Jax Beach?

 

[Brian M]

28 minutes ago, NickJames said:

for some of the replies, there are robellinis all around Jacksonville Beach as we type with zero damage from this winter  

I tend to think that even a drop of hybridized blood might help them or something because I know of specimens that have survived brief 19 degrees with little to no damage, and others that outright died at 26.

back to your question…my friend @shminbabe is growing archontophoenix palms very well over in Atlantic Beach. Maybe try that. Where exactly in Jax Beach?

 

Off South Beach Pkwy just north of JTB. I saw some archontophoenix alexandrae in the open took a beating this year. Not sure if a cunninghamiana would fare any better especially without any overhead canopy.

[jreich85]

I agree with Nick that there shouldn’t be too much worry at the beach with robellinis. I’m just across the ditch and even over here I haven’t seen any damage to any of them at all this past winter and we had a pretty chilly night, down to 27 at my house. They are somewhat variable, probably due to health but maybe also if some of them are hybrids, which also might be a good option for you. I have a couple smaller reclinatas that I’m really starting to enjoy as get bigger, and they give of that tropical look and have also been unphased the past few winters. IMO, with them and robellinis, you really have to be messing around in them deep to get to the nasty spines.

I have a friend in Neptune Beach who has a few of the biggest robellinis I’ve ever seen around his pool and it looks amazing. 

[BeyondTheGarden]

It may be boring if you're into more exotic palms but what about a couple Butia in the mix?  I'd probably do 3 or 4 taller/midsize palms and then some understory palms underneath.  

Butias and mules, Chamaerops?  With Serenoa repens, Sabals, Arenga, Chamaedoreas down low.  Does Rhapis do OK in JAX?  Some Cycads in the mix?  Does Allagoptera do ok that far north? Lytocaryum hoehnei?  Just spitballing ideas. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Jesse PNW

[ruskinPalms]

Hmmm. I’ve always been surprised at the variability of the damage on pigmy dates during cold snaps. Mine is, unfortunately, bullet proof and very fertile and had zero damage with the last cold spell, and down to 27F during an advective freeze on the north side of my house a few years ago. That being said, I took a trip to Okeechobee, FL for a music festival a few weeks ago and I saw way more damage on palms than I’d ever have expected from this year’s cold. Only the Lake Wales ridge was spared damage. I can safely say the north side of lake Okeechobee is NOT zone 10A. 

[kinzyjr]

17 minutes ago, ruskinPalms said:

Hmmm. I’ve always been surprised at the variability of the damage on pigmy dates during cold snaps. Mine is, unfortunately, bullet proof and very fertile and had zero damage with the last cold spell, and down to 27F during an advective freeze on the north side of my house a few years ago. That being said, I took a trip to Okeechobee, FL for a music festival a few weeks ago and I saw way more damage on palms than I’d ever have expected from this year’s cold. Only the Lake Wales ridge was spared damage. I can safely say the north side of lake Okeechobee is NOT zone 10A. 

I took the same route to Jupiter last weekend and noticed the same thing until I got a few miles down the east side of the lake.

[D. Morrowii]

I’ve heard Syagrus schizophylla described as a good alternative to a Pygmy Date. Full sun and fair cold tolerance. 

[ruskinPalms]

As far as using these by a pool, it is done all the time. The spines are annoying and even dangerous if overlaying high traffic areas but they are pretty palms overall and can take a 9B zone without too much trouble.  

[surfermatt]

What about onilahensis droopy? 

[Tom in Tucson]

On 3/24/2022 at 11:27 AM, Tracy said:

Avoid any Phoenix adjacent to a pool as they all have heavily armed petioles, which is a liability in particular if you have kids or will have friends' kids in the pool.  My first thought for fixed height would be Arenga engleri, which clumps and individual stocks will die after flowering so can be removed.  Nice fragrance from blooms, but the leaflets are rigid and can poke, although nothing like the damage you can get from any of the Phoenix species.  I can't speak to how hardy A engleri are in your part of Florida, as the conditions that are cold in Florida and California don't translate, but its worthy of further investigation.  I'm assuming that based on your temperature concerns that the clumping Dypsis species are not a feasible option, otherwise you would want to consider Dypsis onilahensis, Dypsis heteromorpha and Dypsis lutescens as screens.  If Royals, Foxtails and Triangles actually do work there, you could consider one or two of them, but using non-palm complimentary plants down lower, and even some things that might die back when you get your coldest events that can be replanted.  Your anchor plants, the larger palms you select would be the cold hardy ones suited to your zone.

I disagree that any Phoenix species is heavily armed. I was under the impression that the true (not hybridized) species of Phoenix rupicola is not armed at all (like the other species apparently are). This is one reason I'm growing what I hope are the authentic species. The other reason is because they're so damn good looking!

Hi 97˚, Lo 49˚

[Palmfarmer]

On 3/24/2022 at 2:09 PM, sonoranfans said:

I had roebelinii's survive a short(overnight) cold snap to 22F in 9a gilbert AZ in the open, all green was gone even leafbases, and they regrew from the underground trunk but it took 2 seasons for full recovery of all leaves.  In 9a they could get hit just about every year.  And the confusion on cold hardiness for many palms is often a short cold snap like out west where they tolerate lower temps vs longer advective cold events that often occur in florida.  Check out the freeze damage section of this forum they get leaf burn starting at 27F:

 

Definitly. I find them kinda hardy in desert climates. Had a brief drop to 24 one night as i remember there was close to 0 foliage burn. 

[Steve the palmreader]

Arenga engleri

[Steve the palmreader]

Livistonia decora

[Tracy]

9 hours ago, Tom in Tucson said:

I disagree that any Phoenix species is heavily armed. I was under the impression that the true (not hybridized) species of Phoenix rupicola is not armed at all (like the other species apparently are). This is one reason I'm growing what I hope are the authentic species. The other reason is because they're so damn good looking!

Hi 97˚, Lo 49˚

Thank you for correcting me.  I wasn't aware that Phoenix rupicola isn't armed.  I guess because any I have seen have been hybrids.  Thanks for the lesson Tom and hope that yours are true P rupicola.  So the follow up question is whether true P rupicola would be an appropriate substitute planting for this spot adjacent to the pool?

[sonoranfans]

 

I agree with Tom, I have a rupicola triple, my only phoenix sp. in the yard.  The initial 6-8" of leaf stems have thorns, but they fold at the base(lay down) when you put a load on them.  The thorns closest to the leaves are intermediate like rolled up leaves and they are soft.  You can get stuck, but it wont penetrate far and you have to be really careless to get hurt.  Because the thorns of ruicola fold flat they don't function as a "saw" or a stabbing "needle" when your arm brushes against it.  In my yard, cuban copernicias, livistona decora, and saribus, copernicia alba, and even L. chinensis and saw palmetto are more difficult to handle without getting stuck or cut.  Rupicolas grow slow, mine are about 3' trunk(12-13' overall) in 11 years from 3 gallon seedling in sandy soil.  I would put livistona decora then copernicia baileyana as the ones that are toughest to handle in my yard, they will "saw" your arm/hand with sharp teeth.      

[Brian M]

I think we decided on either two livistona nitida or decora on the outside for height and have two single roebeliniis in the center as understory palms. Now the quest to find decent priced field grown palms.

[Brian M]

Finally found some livistona decoras for a reasonable price. Once they are put in, I'll post more pictures.

[BeyondTheGarden]

Those are gorgeous!