What's Wrong With a SUB-Tropical Garden?

[Fouquieria]

I wasn't too sure where to place this, but I figured the question involves palms also, and I wanted this to get as much exposure as possible.

When I was at Matty's party the other night, I noticed comments about water (or lack of) and watering came up a couple of times.  Recently Peter Griffith sent me an e-mail about making changes to his CA garden to help alleviate his water bill.  I've read the comments about Dr. Darian's monthly water bill.

I know this is a chronic issue here in CA (especially SoCal), but I know that many parts of OZ, South Africa, and FL have been having water crises of their own.

Everyone can't live in the tropics and I'm pretty sure most on this board don't.  So, my fundamental question is, are some of you considering changing your plant/palm choices?    The side questions are, if you are, what are they?  If you aren't, how do you moderate the issue of water?

Because of my specific conditions, I don't have what could even vaguely be construed as a tropical garden.  However, it is a very exotic garden.  My yard is a very, very steep slope with lots of rocks and boulders.  The soil is very hard, compacted clay and rocks.  And yet, I'm able to have something respectable (as yards go) and satisfying to garden on, without having exhorbitant water bills.

I've just started to plant a few palms...some Bismarckias, a  Butia yatay, and a couple of Serenoa repens.  All of these survived this past winter fine and seem to be doing ok this summer.  Albeit, all but the Butia are seedlings.  I'm thinking of adding a Brahea clara, a Sabal uresana, and (if I can find one) a Medemia argun.  That will probably do me as far as palms go.

Presently most of my garden consists of Euphorbias, Yuccas, Agaves, Aloes, Cacti, and a few Pachypodiums.  I can't really call it a Cacti and Succulent garden though, because I have too many other things to soften it up.  Some of these softening plants are Grevilleas, Hakeas, Rosemary, Strelitzias, Echium, Crassulas.

My canopy presently consists of Eucalypts and Pepper trees.  I'm experimenting with other tree seedlings too and some have taken off somewhat.  These include Chorisia, Pseudobombax, Stenocarpus sinuatus, a number of Tabebuias, three different species of Schotia, a Buckinghamia, two Metrosideros, a Delosperma, a few Erythrinas, two Peltophorums, a Bauhinia bartlettii.  These aforementioned seem to have taken hold and also seem rather drought tolerant.

Just very recently I've started acquiring some Cycads.  I started on these last summer with seedlings.  It seems like they do well hot and dry.

Some other things are still at the experimental stage, and so it's too early to make a definitive statement.

Anyway, my water bill during July and August (the hottest, driest months) is in the $120-130 range...which for me is manageable.

Comments?

-Ron-

[MattyB]

Water bill is every two months right?  I'll be back to comment more on this thread.  I've thought a lot about this too.  Good topic Ron. (back to work for now.)

[ruskinPalms]

Hi Ron. Good topic. Water would not be a problem for me at all if the home owner's association would let me rip out my grass. Grass is the biggest water hog in existence. Period. My water bill ranges from 90 to 150 depending on how much I water my very little 60'x110' lot. Once established, I think almost every ornamental palm and plant other than the grass would be able to survive here with what mother nature gives me for free. I think water is a MUCH bigger problem out west like in Arizona and most of California. I just dosen't rain enough out west to support a lot of what people want without heavy irrigation. It is almost borderline irresponsible for Dr. Darian to be encouraging that everyone plant a garden to the extent of his. (That was his vision, right?)  I agree with you Ron. I think we should try to plant in a way that conserves water. I have been using some water saving techniques like planting in dense groupings or lanscape islands that are heavily mulched. Now if only I could get rid of all my grass....

[metalfan]

Well, we are in a drought and have been since 2005. I have a well and don;t pay for water but that also doesn't mean I can waste it. We try to adhere to the watering restrictions set by the Water Authority.

Mine is of course NOT a tropical climate even though it feels like it for 9-10 months out of the year, as we do get frosts. My yard is filled with tropical plants though. Bananas, all kinds of Aroids, tons of gingers of all kinds, Clerodendrons, brugmansias, bromeliads, oleanders...also perennials that are root hardy here--salvias, buddleia, and citrus. They get sprinkler water and rain.

For palms, I just have the usual suspects in the yard that are hardy here. I don't try to push the palm limit. I keep the neato stuff in the greenhouse.

I do have some agaves and aloes, but we have to be careful with those, sometimes if we start getting OUT of the drought, and start getting tons of rain, they will rot. So even though I would entertain the idea of making my entire yard xeric, I can't.

I won't change what I have growing in my yard because of lack of rain. If it gets too dry, they just go dormant.

[ruskinPalms]

By the way, my water bill is monthy.

[ruskinPalms]

Another cool water saving technique is to plant water loving plants close to your house if you had a cheap builder like mine who decided the houses did not need gutters. Even little bits of rain create a lot of watering near the house. Also, every morning water condenses on the roof and drips off slowly. Daily morning drip irrigation for a couple hours is nice!

[Fouquieria]

My water bill is monthly too and in winter probably averages $50-$60.

My few plants that require more water are kept nearer the house and usually in a more sheltered, less sunny spot.

-Ron-

[Really full garden]

I live in the tropics and water is a growing problem.We get no rain at all from about Oct.15 until May and during the wet season we can go two weeks with nothing and then get five inches in one night.I cannot grow what most of us think as a "tropical garden".My garden is looking more and more like the gardens Ive seen on the drier Caribbean islands .I am planting more and more agaves and palms that can tolerate drought conditions.I have 2.5 acres  that include some lawn and my water bill (fuel costs for my well pump) range from $200 - $300 a month.

                                                                           Scott

[Scott]

Ron - It was great to meet you the other day at the party!

That sounds like a great collection of palms with the future in mind. How about a Brahea or two. They're beautiful and majestic.

Hopefully you'll be able to post some pics

Scott

[chris.oz]

Well our problem is that my tropical style garden requires humidity, and lots of water it has ferns and palms and large water guzzling trees.  I would be happy to pay the water bill to keep it,  but it will soon be illegal to water gardens artificially in our city due to population/ industrial  demand for water outstripping the collectable resource from the highland areas of the state.  

My garden would need a massive tank to provide enough for one watering,  and we sometimes go for 2 months without rain over summer.

As much as it is my passion,  many of the species I grow will have to be sold or die.... and no one else wants them,  because they cannot water either.

Ebay and bare rooting to North Queensland may be the answer.

[SunnyFl]

(ruskinPalms @ Aug. 28 2007,17:14)

QUOTE

Hi Ron. Good topic. Water would not be a problem for me at all if the home owner's association would let me rip out my grass. Grass is the biggest water hog in existence. Period. My water bill ranges from 90 to 150 depending on how much I water my very little 60'x110' lot. Once established, I think almost every ornamental palm and plant other than the grass would be able to survive here with what mother nature gives me for free.

This is a great topic, and yes we in FL do have repeated water crises.  I cannot understand why HOAs here are allowed to dictate that you have to have so much grass - the stuff is a huge waste of water, not to mention all the chemicals just to keep it green enough to suit the HOAs.

Fortunately, there's no HOA here (made #$%#! sure of that before moving here) and I've replaced most of my front yard with gardens.  I try to emphasize the xeric stuff - bougainvillea, allamanda, adenium, crepe myrtle - and a little plumbago for a blue touch.  My weakness is crotons, and the water-hogging hibiscus and roebelenii, though.

The spindle, glauca and morrissii seem to not require supplemental irrigation at all (the drought-tolerance of the spindle was a surprise), and the lutescens did very well during the drought, too.

As Gina said, the problem is when we have a lot of rain -seems if you plant for drought, you get floods (remember 1997?), but if you plant the water-lovers, you get a drought, grrr.

Ooooh - I'm hearing thunder.  Might we get some rain tonight?  I did a lot of rearranging and transplanting this weekend, a good soaking would help!

[Matt in SD]

I have automatic bill pay on my water bill and I never look at it...problem solved!

Seriously though I do look at it sometimes but because I don't have a lot of land it's not too bad (maybe $150 bucks during the hottest part of the year).  And Matty, my bill is every month, but they only check the meter every other month.  So one month you pay an estimate and then the next you pay the difference between the actual water used for the 2 months and what you payed as the estimate.  So you need to make sure you look at the bill that is the real meter reading to see what you actual usage is.  You could have a real high bill one month just because the estimate for the first month in the cycle was low.

Matt

Matt

[bahia]

Ron,

It sounds like you have a mix of mediterranean climate and subtropical plants going that combine well with your soil conditions and limited local winter rainfall.  It doesn't seem at all out of place to me, but entirely appropriate to your climate.  If I got as little rain in winter as you do, I would also be growing alot less water loving plants, but we get closer to 30 inches of rain a year here in Berkeley, and we also have alot more humidity up here being just half a mile from the bay, and the low speed typical offshore winds combined with lots of windbreaks, and almost daily fog in summer really moderate how much water I lose to transpiration in the garden.  If I got rid of the plant nursery with the 100's of plants in containers, I could get by with just once a week or even twice a month watering, even with all the Heliconias, bromeliads and other cloud forest plants I grow.  As it is, my water bill only amounts to $60 monthly in summer, and half that in winter.  This also includes 50% of that amount as a sanitary sewer charge, and not all for water used.  I think I am about 120 gallons of water being used daily at peak summer use, but this is a one person household as well, and a small lot, only 50 wide by 140 feet deep.  I also benefit from a relatively high water table just 3 feet below grade because of the surcharge off the hills above me, and the water table can be just 18 inches down in winter.

I think I will mostly be okay if I eliminate the excessive container plants/nursery, and finish moving them all to a neighbor's property that is on well water.  Even with the subtropical bromeliads, they are just fine if they get but a minute or two of overhead spray every few days, and can go weeks without if need be.  The small 150 square foot lawn I used to have in front was elimated along time ago, and will not be replaced with more lawn, even when the nursery plants get moved off of this area.

Your garden sounds entirely appropriate for your area, and once things are established, it may even survive on less water than it gets now, especially as you get more shade canopy, and if you mulch heavily.

I try to design new gardens for clients that are cognizant of future water rationing, but not always do they want to eliminate all lawn area.  I have installed a few lawns which use indigenous Carex species such as C. tumulicola or C. pansa, and can get by with just once a month watering here in our area with a clay based soil.  As these can't be bought as instant sod, they are fall back turf choices if water rationing does kick in, and the client wants to keep the lawn even so.

[Paul S]

Water, or lack of, is definately an issue for me.  The part of England where I live is very dry - we get an average of only 20" of rainfall a year.  Even in our wettest ever year we still only managed about 36" of rain.  

I spent many a year filling my garden with treeferns, bananas, bamboos and palms but, over the past 10 years or so, finally decided to work with, not against, the conditions I have and grow plants that are more appropriate for the climate.

As a result increasing amounts of my patch are being changed to grow cacti and succulents in combination with palms - the challenge being to find enough sufficiently hardy ones to cope with out cool winters yet provide the variety needed for a complete landscape.  

I still grow the water demanding stuff, just not so much and kept to certain areas making it easier to manage.  Very much a work in progress.  Ron's place would be my ideal, had I the climate to work with.  I drool over pictures of his garden whenever he posts them.

[Tyrone]

(chris.oz @ Aug. 28 2007,18:54)

QUOTE

Well our problem is that my tropical style garden requires humidity, and lots of water it has ferns and palms and large water guzzling trees.  I would be happy to pay the water bill to keep it,  but it will soon be illegal to water gardens artificially in our city due to population/ industrial  demand for water outstripping the collectable resource from the highland areas of the state.  

My garden would need a massive tank to provide enough for one watering,  and we sometimes go for 2 months without rain over summer.

As much as it is my passion,  many of the species I grow will have to be sold or die.... and no one else wants them,  because they cannot water either.

Ebay and bare rooting to North Queensland may be the answer.

Chris, It always gets me how different ones including governments go on about planting trees to help the environment, and yet poo poo anyone that decides to use the water to keep these same trees alive. To be honest, a water shortage where it is illegal to water plants is a gross failure of governments to manage the situation properly. Plants are a vital part of life. I would not live in an area where it is illegal to water. Water restrictions that are reasonable is something else, but illegal to water????????

These Australian authorities keep on telling us that we live in the driest part of the world, which is true if you include the deserts. But the population doesn't live in the desert, it lives on the coastal fringes, mainly the east where rainfall is relatively high. Here in Perth we get about 3 times the winter rainfall of So Cal, and more yearly rainfall than places like London, and yet with only 1.5 million in Perth compared to the population of all Australia in the other two places, we kept getting told that " we live in the driest part of the world" and our water resources are being stretched. How do places like London and So cal survive which have lower annual rainfall and over 10 times the population????? If what the Oz governments are telling us is true, noone in London or So Cal could even afford to flush a toilet, or even spit.

This sort of thing gets me going. I hope Chris you never need to get rid of your plants. I wonder how much water you really use. You're probably more efficient than the average pool owner. Here in Perth we are told that 85% of scheme water goes on the garden. Who ever wrote that hasn't taken a look at the average garden in summer. About 70% of gardens are dead here in summer. So where is all of this high quality water going? Probably industry, who can do what they like with it

regards

Tyrone

[ghar41]

Great question.

Here in Modesto, we routinely finish at the bottom of "best places to live in America," because there is very little here but agriculture.  There is, however, California entertainment in every direction at a distance of about 80 miles.....San Francisco, Yosemite valley, snow skiing, warm beach (Santa Cruz), ect.  Places like Madison Wisconsin routinely finish at or near the top of these lists although Modesto grows at a rate at least twice that of any city in that part of the country.  No freezing snow at my house, please.

Living in an agrarian area has obvious benefits from a palm growers perspective also.  Availability of land, the best top soil the world has to offer and I pay a flat fee for water, (about 40 bucks a month) It's left to each individual here to conserve as it's clear to all that water is everyones crisis.

I grow many water wise palms but with water lovers, like King Palms, for instance, I have them on the morning sun side of my house, on a drip system in heavily mulched soil.

[PalmGuyWC]

I have a clay soil (adobe). and I have a well, so water is not really a problem for me, but I still try to be judicious with it. My irrigation system was put in years ago, and now most of the raised sprinklers are blocked by palms that grew in front of them.  I move sprinklers around now, and with them I can direct the water exactly where I want it. Not very attractive with hoses strung every place, but I can live with that, and if I'm having a group over the hoses can be coiled and doesn't look so bad. I suppose a drip system would be the most efficient, but that's not practical at my place.

As mentioned above, I have raised islands with groupings of palms and they are heavly mulched with horse litter. The horsey set around here are only too happy to load my truck for free to eliminate their mountains of litter. The mulch not only saves on water, but also slowly releases nutrients, and it smothers unwanted grasses and weeds. I spread it deep, about 6 or 7 inches, and in a year or so it settles and gives a neat apperance to the palm islands.

Most of the palms I can grow in my Mediteranian climate are draught tollerent. I've also noticed most of the cold hardy palms also have large trunks.  Once established these palms have extensive root systems and the roots reach my water table.  I'm sure they could go all summer without water, but I water them anyway since that's when they do 95% of their growth. I also have a lot of understory plants, and they do have to be watered in the warmer months. Most of them are growing under palms, so I concentrate the water into the areas that need it and that saves water.

Like most of you, I have to many container plants and my back deck looks like a nursery sometimes. They require a lot of water and time, so I'm thinking about cutting way back on container grown plants. In the shorter months when it's wet and cool, the water usage falls way back, and I trap all the rain water I can coming off the roof. There is just something about rain water that makes it so superior to well water. For my tender and indoor plants, rain water is all I used in the winter time. (That is, if it rains, and we  didn't get much of that last winter).

There are other ways to conserve water.  Turn the shower water off when your soaping up, and take shorter showers. You don't have to flush every time you use the toilet. Use the maxium load you can in your washing machine, and don't use the dish washer until it's fully loaded. Only wash your dog(s) every two weeks, or until they stink.

Dick

[chris.oz]

(PalmGuyWC @ Aug. 29 2007,06:27)

QUOTE

I have a well, so water is not really a problem for me, but I still try to be judicious with it.

Most of the palms I can grow in my Mediteranian climate are draught tollerent.

Like most of you, I have to many container plants and my back deck looks like a nursery sometimes. They require a lot of water and time, so I'm thinking about cutting way back on container grown plants.

There are other ways to conserve water.............  

Dick

Most of my problems are the palms in containers.  I do have hundreds,  and the bigger ones will be planted this spring.   That way they can survive a lot longer without water.

Normally in our climate we get 2" of rain a month evenly distributed through the year and gardens with palms like Howea can survive and look good.  

But I think I will have to say goodbye to the tree ferns.  They look absolutely awful in the drought.

In days gone by, I ran each sprinkler zone   each night for 10 minutes during summer.  In retrospect,  maybe 30 minutes evry 2 days or 1 hour every week would have been better.

[metalfan]

Sunny,

you are so right! We have no HOA and no deed restrictions, (made sure of THAT) but we live across the road from a huge subdivision that does (literally...on the other side of my one lane road!)

They are REQUIRED to keep a lawn, keep it green and keep it mowed. They are given a list of plants that are "acceptable" for planting in the front and side yards (visible from the street). And that's all they can plant. If they have a fenced back yard, they can have "their own stuff" in back where no one can see it. They are also required to have pool cages, no open pools.

This chaps my butt because this subdivision has 2 huge (football sized) retention ponds, one right across from me, that drain it. All of the pollution from the chemicals (pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers) they put on their lawns, all the run off from their asphalt and roofs, everything like that, drains to these ponds, and while the theory is that they are supposed to filter down and "percolate" and "manage their own stormwater n their own property", the truth is, the pond across from me is defective, and in times of flood (after Frances and Jeanne, and the record 10 inch rain we had the December after) all that water flows sideways onto my property, and 2 of my neighbors properties, and eventually goes downslope to a creek that runs miles and miles though this area, including through a state wildlife preserve. Just contaminates it! And the worse thing is, the Suwannee County and St John's County Water Authority don't give a HOOT!

I have plants all over my yard that, when we have adequate rain, pop up and look great. In times of drought, they either pop up and stay tiny, or don;t pop up at all. Its like a surprise grab bag. Some seasons I have all different cultivars of Colocasia, Alocasia and Xanthosoma that are 3-8 ft tall, some seasons I have nothing.

I almost lost 3 mature (over 20 year old) Sago palms after Frances and Jeanne that stood in standing water and mud for over a year. One yellowed and all its fronds fell off and I thought it was dead. But when the ground FINALLY dried out, it slowly came back.

[Scott McDonald]

Have you thought about gray-(laundry)water discharge or rain water collection for irrigation?

And our HOA nees to be committed to a retirement home.  When tree trimming became more expensive, they had an answer:  They cut all the trees in the median down.

[SubTropicRay]

You will never see me live in a HOA and/or deed restricted community for that exact reason.

[Dave-Vero]

Scott,

Your HOA's tree-cutting is typical retiree behavior.  First, everything has to look manicured.  Then manicuring gets expensive so the flowerbeds go.  Then the trees, then the shrubbery.

Sarasota County, Florida is banning fertilizer application during the rainy season.  newspaper story

[metalfan]

LOL Dave, since Florida is largely in a drought, it won't matter anyway...its been too dry to fertilize outdoors here anyway. I'm afraid I might burn my plants!

[Trópico]

(metalfan @ Aug. 29 2007,07:50)

QUOTE

They are REQUIRED to keep a lawn, keep it green and keep it mowed. They are given a list of plants that are "acceptable" for planting in the front and side yards (visible from the street). And that's all they can plant. If they have a fenced back yard, they can have "their own stuff" in back where no one can see it. They are also required to have pool cages, no open pools.

That sounds like a nightmare.  

I have nightmares that mine is going to come up with something like that once they start seeing my more exotic species going into the ground next year.

Either they know how to blame someone else "we have received several complaints that..." or the neighbors are indeed soooo picky!

[MattyB]

Here's my initial, unexperienced thoughts on how I'm gonna set up my Subtropical garden here in this mediterranean desert:  I do want a "rainforest" area which includes a high canopy and many levels down to understory.  I can't afford to irrigate a huge area so I'll have an area that I'll plant very densley that way the water is being used efficiently.  Hopefully eventually it will be a jungle that you can walk into and explore a few foot trails.  The inital set up of this area will be done by drip irrigation to the canopy plants and once it fills in and more and more plants get planted then I'll figure out how to spray the whole area.  The rest of the garden will be on drip with a large emphasis on sun and drought tolerant plants.  Also because I'm on a hill, I'm gonna try and take advantage of my own runoff and soil perkilation(sp) by planting a bunch of large trees with aggressive roots (ficus and stuff) down in the gully.  Maybe they'll survive on what they can get from above.  Also, my washer drains to the garden and I'm in the process of unhooking my shower.  The septic system also goes into the soil so somewhere down the hill there's gonna be ground water.  I've also got tanks for catchment for the greenhouse and I'll build a well someday.  I've got a pipe dream.  I'm blabbering.  Gotta go.

[Scott McDonald]

Sounds good. Many don't realize how much water is used in a washing machine.  Wash clothes on days that are off-limits to yard irrigation, utilizing the laundry water to irrigate your garden.  A simple French Drain running through the garden can be done very cheaply.  Remove the washing machine hose from it's drain, connect hose to a lint filter, then through the wall to outside.  Couple the small drain hose to the larger 3"-4" PVC French Drain.  Now, laundry water will go underground to your garden.

Here is something from Australia on the topic:

http://www.actewagl.com.au/publica....den.pdf

When the septic system finally dies, a 3 chambered drip irrigation system is a good replacement.  It uses high pressure lines that can be run through/around plantings with minimal disturbance.   These systems are used here not so much to reuse household water, but when soil percolation is an issue, and the lot is small.  

Here is a brief description from TAMU Extension office:

http://tcebookstore.org/tmppdfs/5621376-L5237.pdf

[Scott]

This is all really interesting - but when you drain washer to the garden, what about the chemicals in the water? Isn't that harful to the plants?

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Dave,

That's an interesting newspaper article, and I know Florida has enviromental problems, but who in the heck doesn't where the population has exploded. It sounds like Sarasota County has borrowed some of our dumb assed "public servants" who pass laws without thinking.

How could a law like that ever be enforced? I can see folks out spreading fertilizer at midnight so their neighbors won't report them.  I can remember when we had several years of drought here years back. People were not allowed to water their gardens, and you were a "good person" if your lawn was brown. They had the water police out looking for green lawns, but I noticed the larger and more expensive the homes were, the greener the lawns.

Barring another extream drought in Calif. the only restrictions we have in Walnut Creek is that you have to get a permit to remove any tree that is more than 14 inches in diamater, even if it's a junk tree.  The only tree that is native to my area are the giant Oaks, and they should be preserved. The last open acre catty-cornered to my property was sold recently.  There is a magnificant Oak on the property, and the new owner had to bond the tree with the City for $115,000 in case the tree was destroyed. The tree has put constraints on where their new house can be built on the property, but this condition had to be met in order to get the permits to build a new house.

This sounds all well and good, except......these trees can not be watered in the summer as they will get Oak root fungus and die in about 10 years if they are irrigated in the summer. There is no City restriction on watering under the Oaks. I have two large Oaks and I'm very carefull that they don't get water in the warmer months up to the drip line. They take up about 1/3 of my garden space.

Dick

[bahia]

Having seen Dick's garden recently in Walnut Creek, and the gorgeous mature Valley Oaks in combination with the mature palms, this is another garden that was thought out initially to remain viable in our conditions, and is also quite visually stunning.  Dick's garden is a great example for palm lovers in locations colder than southern California, of what is possible, and especially how to space the plantings to really be able to see them at maturity.  I wish I had such restraint to avoid overplanting in my own garden, which results in way too much annual pruning to keep it all in scale.

[Scott McDonald]

(Scott @ Aug. 29 2007,13:45)

QUOTE

This is all really interesting - but when you drain washer to the garden, what about the chemicals in the water? Isn't that harful to the plants?

It shouldn't be poisonous to your plants.  Here is an article on the subject:

http://www.gardeners.com/Keeps-p....38.page

I would avoid the use of Borax, or high concentrations of bleach in my washing machine.  Clothes detergent in its present day formulation shouldn't be harmful to most plants.  Plants that thrive in acidic soil may not like laundry water.

[metalfan]

Dick,

funny you should mention the midnight capers, LOL.

I have some friends in South FL that told me that the "water police" were out ticketing homeowners who were doing just that...watering in the wee hours to avoid, well, the water police!

If they decide to getcha, they will getcha.

[steve 9atx]

Rain isn't my problem.  We're lucky enough to get a fairly even amount year-round:

Jan 3.68in.

Feb 2.98in.

Mar 3.36in.

Apr 3.60in.

May 5.15in.

Jun 5.35in.

Jul 3.18in.

Aug 3.83in.

Sept 4.33in.

Oct 4.50in.

Nov 4.19in.

Dec 3.69in.

It's the one freeze every 7-10 years that kills my ambitions.

Steve

[chris.oz]

(PalmGuyWC @ Aug. 29 2007,14:01)

QUOTE

Hi Dave,

That's an interesting newspaper article, and I know Florida has enviromental problems, but who in the heck doesn't where the population has exploded. It sounds like Sarasota County has borrowed some of our dumb assed "public servants" who pass laws without thinking.

How could a law like that ever be enforced? I can see folks out spreading fertilizer at midnight so their neighbors won't report them.  I can remember when we had several years of drought here years back. People were not allowed to water their gardens, and you were a "good person" if your lawn was brown. They had the water police out looking for green lawns, but I noticed the larger and more expensive the homes were, the greener the lawns.

Barring another extream drought in Calif. the only restrictions we have in Walnut Creek is that you have to get a permit to remove any tree that is more than 14 inches in diamater, even if it's a junk tree.  The only tree that is native to my area are the giant Oaks, and they should be preserved. The last open acre catty-cornered to my property was sold recently.  There is a magnificant Oak on the property, and the new owner had to bond the tree with the City for $115,000 in case the tree was destroyed. The tree has put constraints on where their new house can be built on the property, but this condition had to be met in order to get the permits to build a new house.

This sounds all well and good, except......these trees can not be watered in the summer as they will get Oak root fungus and die in about 10 years if they are irrigated in the summer. There is no City restriction on watering under the Oaks. I have two large Oaks and I'm very carefull that they don't get water in the warmer months up to the drip line. They take up about 1/3 of my garden space.

Dick

Dick,

Fascinating reading.

We too have water police and "garden waterers " are "frowned upon" , lawns are being replaced by stones and gravel,  but who knows how much water is used inside peoples houses ???

We also live in a tree protection zone,  with permits and temporary fences around protected trees during building developments.

Sounds like these Oaks are uniquely adapted to Mediterranean climates

[metalfan]

Steve9a TX,

I lived in Galveston for almost 7 years. When I was a poor starving student I lived in a big Victorian house down on Market Street with 5 other students (all male). I had a huge room downstairs that had a space heater in it. I mean this room was HUGE!

One winter, I think it was 1982, we had a freeze down to the low to mid 20's. I had that space heater cranked, but my room was so huge and the ceiling was so high (10 or 12 feet) that it couldn't touch it! I had to go and sleep upstairs in one of the guy's rooms who had a tiny room that the heater actually kept about 32F!

That is the ONLY freeze I can honestly recall going through in Galveston.

[steve 9atx]

Gina

That must have been a bad one if it got down to the 20's in Galveston.  I was at the U of H then, but without a yard; so, I probably only cared whether or not I had antifreeze in my car, if that.  I know how those space heaters work - you have to decide if you want to stay warm or risk breathing CO all night.

It made it to about 25F in '02 here, I believe, over one night.  I hadn't had a freeze since until this last winter when it touched the high 20's for an hour or so overnight.

BTW, is there no place in TX/FL where you haven't lived at one time or another!?

Steve