Problem's with Deer

[irwdav@aol.com]

I am about to start my Palm/Blooming Tree's, Bushes and Flower's garden this spring and am kind of worried about the deer coming over from the woods across the street and destroying everything. I have ordered deer repellant to spray, solar powered devices that emit lights and noises and plan on using fishing line with posts about a foot apart to get the pesky deer, skunks and groundhogs away. Does anyone have any problems with these animals and what works ?

[DAVEinMB]

24 minutes ago, irwdav@aol.com said:

I am about to start my Palm/Blooming Tree's, Bushes and Flower's garden this spring and am kind of worried about the deer coming over from the woods across the street and destroying everything. I have ordered deer repellant to spray, solar powered devices that emit lights and noises and plan on using fishing line with posts about a foot apart to get the pesky deer, skunks and groundhogs away. Does anyone have any problems with these animals and what works ?

You could make a diluted chili pepper spray and coat everything with it. A guy I used to work with would use Carolina Reapers to make his spray, animals want nothing to do with it. 

[Silas_Sancona]

35 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

You could make a diluted chili pepper spray and coat everything with it. A guy I used to work with would use Carolina Reapers to make his spray, animals want nothing to do with it. 

Guess it depends on where you're at.. Sprays, noise / light / water deterrents will work, until that target wildlife / feral cats/ dogs gets accustomed to it..  Back in California, not even a 4 lane, super busy road, lots of people, up all hours of the day would stop deer, skunks, raccoons, etc from wandering into my grandparent's neighborhood for a snack / opportunity at an easy meal..

Here, Coyote and Javalina, ..even the occasional Bobcat, Bears, and/ or Mountain Lion have been seen wandering " urban " streets ..wayy outside of " the sticks "

Depending on vegetation conditions out in the woods, Deer ( and some other critters as well ) will also consume seemingly toxic plants, when hungry enough..

All that said, if allowed, you could use things like an electric fence, or.. have seen where people have installed " roller " bar - type barriers on perimeter fences / block walls ( out here ) that help keep critters that can scale fences out. Animals that can dig / tunnel? ..Good luck keeping them away for long.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Silas_Sancona
edit

[oasis371]

I live in a major deer crossing and we see them every day, year round for over a decade now.  I only plant deer resistant trees, shrubs, and flowers.  Yes, they will eat a lot on the deer resistant list but will eat first from a deer friendly yard. It also depends on the season of the year, the severity of the winter and where you live.  Deer don't seem to touch any palms, ever, and will avoid most all the tropicals.  I don't use the stinky spays, electricity, barbed wire, scarecrows, laser beams,  etc.... I have a list of plants for zone 7/NJ, but might not work for Michigan. Deer, maybe groundhogs are by far the only animals that do any significant garden damage.  Feral cats?! LOL.

Edited February 23, 2022 by oasis371

[oasis371]

 

P.S., I have seen deer completely devour chili pepper plants..., and that's in the SUMMER!

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by oasis371

[amh]

Deer will leave Sabal minor alone, but any other plants will require cages. Depending on the size of your yard it may be cheaper to just install a 6+ foot fence.

Sorry about the tone of my answer, but it will save you heartache and money.

[PalmatierMeg]

My brother-in-law in Del Rio, TX calls deer "rats on stilts". If motivated enough they clear 6' fences. You may want to do in-depth research for deer-proof plants, including palms.

[oasis371]

"My brother-in-law in Del Rio, TX calls deer "rats on stilts". If motivated enough they clear 6' fences. You may want to do in-depth research for deer-proof plants, including palms."

Most of my yard plants are poisonous (containing cyanide, arsenic,  ricin, etc.). No, not a serial killer, just live with the deer. 

Here is my list in NJ/Zone 7a/b for dealing with them.

Ornamental grasses (any of them)

Bamboos (clumping or spreading)

Holly (especially the prickly ones)

False Holly (Osmanthus heterophyllus 'goshiki'

Cherry/English Laurel 

Boxwoods

Southern Magnolias

Photinia

Hellebores 

Peony

Columbines

IRIS

FERNS 

Rhododendrons

Butterfly bush

lilacs

Crape Myrtles

Yucca

Viburnum

Skimmia japonica

Pieris (Andromeda)

Pachysandra

Opuntia humifusa (Eastern Prickly Pear cacti)

Any herbal (rosemary, lavender, etc.)

Cephalotaxus  (Japanese Plum Yew)

Gingko biloba

Monkey Puzzle (Araucaria araucana)

PALMS & CYCADS (Of the genus Cycas alone, I have at least five of the ones as in the pic below)

P.S., Cycads are the nuclear option! LOL

 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by oasis371

[amh]

2 hours ago, oasis371 said:

Most of my yard plants are poisonous (containing cyanide, arsenic,  ricin, etc.). No, not a serial killer, just live with the deer. 

I hate to tell you this, but white tail seem to have no problem with cyanide, they can eat Prunus seeds and leaves with no problems.  Also deer have browsed all of the castor plants that I have grown.

2 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

My brother-in-law in Del Rio, TX calls deer "rats on stilts". If motivated enough they clear 6' fences. You may want to do in-depth research for deer-proof plants, including palms.

White tail are tasty varmints and rats on stilts is a good description.

Game proof fencing is 8ft or taller, but the deer will generally avoid fences of 5ft or taller, especially if they cant see the other side. I see deer impaled by 6ft fences at least once a year.

Rosemary, Japanese boxwood, cycads, washingtonias, and Sabal minor appear deer proof, but most deer-proof plants are not really deer-proof.

[oasis371]

Amh,  my intent is NOT to kill the deer..., jus' to send them over to my neighbors' yards.

And yes, even with my Pleistocene cold freakin' winters, they avoid my yard for lunch.

This ain't my first rodeo with'em! LMFAO! 

We actually even LOVE our deer, that's why I moved here. You gotta know your environment and jus' deal with it.

Viva Ucrania!!!

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by oasis371

[amh]

27 minutes ago, oasis371 said:

Amh,  my intent is NOT to kill the deer..., jus' to send them over to my neighbors' yards.

And yes, even with my Pleistocene cold freakin' winters, they avoid my yard for lunch.

This ain't my first rodeo with'em! LMFAO! 

We actually even LOVE our deer, that's why I moved here. You gotta know your environment and jus' deal with it.

Viva Ucrania!!!

 

 

I'm not talking about killing them, but what is poisonous or bad tasting to other ruminants or sacculated colon and cecal fermenting herbivores can be dessert to deer.

I don't hate deer and I provide habitat and natural browse, but when you are extremely overpopulated with deer, you wont love them.

My environment will support a deer per 5 or 10 acres, but we have at least 1 deer per acre.

Edited February 26, 2022 by amh

[oasis371]

We don't have any problems with them either.

P.S., I only ever ate deer meat once. Did not like it at all, found it very gamy. Alligator, however, was most savory. To each, his/her/their own, I guess.

[WSimpson]

I bet a Pyracantha hedge with plants closely positioned would stop them .  I can'r imagine that they could eat or get through a thickly planted hedge . 

Those things are dangerous . 

Will

[amh]

9 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

I bet a Pyracantha hedge with plants closely positioned would stop them .  I can'r imagine that they could eat or get through a thickly planted hedge . 

Those things are dangerous . 

Will

Deer eat pyracantha, the thorns might temporarily slow them.

I plan on using Sabal minor as a natural fence in the future,

[MarkbVet]

On 2/26/2022 at 1:17 PM, amh said:

I hate to tell you this, but white tail seem to have no problem with cyanide, they can eat Prunus seeds and leaves with no problems.  Also deer have browsed all of the castor plants that I have grown.

White tail are tasty varmints and rats on stilts is a good description.

Game proof fencing is 8ft or taller, but the deer will generally avoid fences of 5ft or taller, especially if they cant see the other side. I see deer impaled by 6ft fences at least once a year.

Rosemary, Japanese boxwood, cycads, washingtonias, and Sabal minor appear deer proof, but most deer-proof plants are not really deer-proof.

Interestingly, although cycads tend to be highly toxic (both neurologic and liver damage), rabbits will sometimes willingly eat them, apparently with impunity.  Would not have predicted that, but herbivores with a fermenting hindgut may be able to break down/metabolize some of those toxins. 

[MarkbVet]

6 hours ago, Will Simpson said:

I bet a Pyracantha hedge with plants closely positioned would stop them .  I can'r imagine that they could eat or get through a thickly planted hedge . 

Those things are dangerous . 

Will

If you want REALLY effective (and dangerous lol)  a cholla cactus hedge will keep everything out, if growing densely enough-- deer, raccoons, etc. (not really tiny animals).

[amh]

2 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Interestingly, although cycads tend to be highly toxic (both neurologic and liver damage), rabbits will sometimes willingly eat them, apparently with impunity.  Would not have predicted that, but herbivores with a fermenting hindgut may be able to break down/metabolize some of those toxins. 

The inefficiency of a rabbits digestive system might be what saves them. The rabbits may know not to consume cecotropes after consuming a poisonous plant. Or it could be other reasons like gut bacteria or slightly different receptors; I don't know.

On a side note, the only cycad species that I see repeatedly browsed by deer is Cycas debaoensis; every other species is avoided or spit out.

2 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

If you want REALLY effective (and dangerous lol)  a cholla cactus hedge will keep everything out, if growing densely enough-- deer, raccoons, etc. (not really tiny animals).

The cholla cactus will keep the owner out as well. A trifoliate orange hedge may work, but deer will occasionally browse the new growth

[BeyondTheGarden]

11 minutes ago, amh said:

The inefficiency of a rabbits digestive system might be what saves them...

I mean, they eat their own poop, because they don't get enough nutrients out of it the first time...  I have seen rabbits and deer on my property but only on the outskirts, never up by the garden.  I wonder if my dogs having free range of the place keeps them away.  Rats on the other hand.... I have had dozens of Trachycarpus seedlings in the greenhouse eaten to the ground overnight by rats.  They haunt my barn and back porch and somehow outsmart the live trap.  I usually get them with peanut butter, cheese, and regular old rat traps. 

[amh]

3 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

I mean, they eat their own poop, because they don't get enough nutrients out of it the first time...  I have seen rabbits and deer on my property but only on the outskirts, never up by the garden.  I wonder if my dogs having free range of the place keeps them away.  Rats on the other hand.... I have had dozens of Trachycarpus seedlings in the greenhouse eaten to the ground overnight by rats.  They haunt my barn and back porch and somehow outsmart the live trap.  I usually get them with peanut butter, cheese, and regular old rat traps. 

Dogs are a great deterrent, but the deer will just reschedule meal time for when the dog isn't around. Not everywhere is as bad as south and central Texas, but the deer are becoming a problem everywhere.

I had a major problem with roof rats destroying my garden and the traps weren't good enough, but the grey fox families and feral cats have helped. The rats would start avoiding baited traps, so I had to learn to place unbaited traps where they would walk.

Electric fences are not very reliable either and deer will just take the shock if they really want something. See below.

 

[MarkbVet]

1 hour ago, amh said:

The inefficiency of a rabbits digestive system might be what saves them. The rabbits may know not to consume cecotropes after consuming a poisonous plant. Or it could be other reasons like gut bacteria or slightly different receptors; I don't know.

On a side note, the only cycad species that I see repeatedly browsed by deer is Cycas debaoensis; every other species is avoided or spit out.

The cholla cactus will keep the owner out as well. A trifoliate orange hedge may work, but deer will occasionally browse the new growth

Yes you'd need a gate lol... can't walk thru a cholla hedge (same for any dense hedge really).   If I was going to use such (and I've contemplated it) the hedge would be around the periphery of the property, no need to be able to go through it, and it would keep after-hours intruders out too.  :-)

The rabbit's gut is actually highly efficient-- they can digest and squeeze nutrients out of coarse grass-based food that most species (like us) would starve on.   The food source itself is inefficient--  grasses are high fiber/low energy material with very sparse nutrient density, but abundantly available, making grass an advantageous food source for the relatively few species that can digest it.  But its low energy density requires high daily intake/ extensive fermentation/ lots of output of waste fiber (pooping).   The heavy bacterial population (especially in the cecum) is responsible for much of the digestion of this coarse diet, and it's likely the intestinal flora may be breaking down/altering the cycad toxins before they can be absorbed. 

Possibly being a strict herbivore gives a rabbit a bit more metabolic resistance to plant toxins, though that's not a given-- the animal probably would never be exposed to such toxins eating its natural diet of grasses, so would not need to be resistant to cycad-type toxins.   Hard to be sure.  Consumption of the cecotropes (or not) is not likely a big factor in toxin tolerance though.  By the time those are being produced & consumed, the damage would already have been done, or not. 

As a side point, cecotropes are not a sign of an inefficient gut.   Exactly the opposite: consumption of cecotropes is another example of rabbit gut efficiency-- squeezing every bit of available nutrient out of the food.  This is similar to an ultra-high efficiency gas furnace, wherein hot exhaust gases are retained & used to heat the air in the outflow duct one more time before the exhaust is expelled.   Re-consuming these cecotropes increases % of usage of available nutrients.  It is the food source that is inefficient, not the gut.  Their GI tract is a marvel of efficiency, but to be that way, it is large and complex-- hence prone to having things go wrong in a big way on occasion (just like horses).  

Sorry to ramble on-- I didn't expect to run into this topic on here.  Don't get me started on herbivore gut stuff,  I'll end up talking your ear off and getting wayyy off the subject of palm trees hehe!  I lecture on this exact topic from time to time, as many of my veterinary peers still hold misconceptions about the rabbit gut and its function/dysfunction.  Most of the life threatening GI problems we see in rabbits/cavies are caused by inappropriate diets (sometimes recommended by another veterinarian, sadly).  We've mostly eliminated such illness in our patients simply by following strict dietary guidelines (and no, we don't recommend feeding cycads lol). 

Edited March 4, 2022 by MarkbVet

[amh]

7 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Yes you'd need a gate lol... can't walk thru a cholla hedge (same for any dense hedge really).   If I was going to use such (and I've contemplated it) the hedge would be around the periphery of the property, no need to be able to go through it, and it would keep after-hours intruders out too.  :-)

The rabbit's gut is actually highly efficient-- they can digest and squeeze nutrients out of coarse grass-based food that most species (like us) would starve on.   The food source itself is inefficient--  grasses are high fiber/low energy material with very sparse nutrient density, but abundantly available, making grass an advantageous food source for the relatively few species that can digest it.  But its low energy density requires high daily intake/ extensive fermentation/ lots of output of waste fiber (pooping).   The heavy bacterial population (especially in the cecum) is responsible for much of the digestion of this coarse diet, and it's likely the intestinal flora may be breaking down/altering the cycad toxins before they can be absorbed. 

Possibly being a strict herbivore gives a rabbit a bit more metabolic resistance to plant toxins, though that's not a given-- the animal probably would never be exposed to such toxins eating its natural diet of grasses, so would not need to be resistant to cycad-type toxins.   Hard to be sure.  Consumption of the cecotropes (or not) is not likely a big factor in toxin tolerance though.  By the time those are being produced & consumed, the damage would already have been done, or not. 

Sorry to ramble on-- I didn't expect to run into this topic on here.  Don't get me started on herbivore gut stuff,  I'll end up talking your ear off and getting wayyy off the subject of palm trees hehe!  I lecture on this exact topic from time to time, as many of my veterinary peers still hold misconceptions about the rabbit gut and its function/dysfunction.  Most of the life threatening GI problems we see in rabbits/cavies are caused by inappropriate diets (sometimes recommended by another veterinarian, sadly).  We've mostly eliminated such illness in our patients simply by following strict dietary guidelines (and no, we don't recommend feeding cycads lol). 

The ramble is greatly appreciated and needed for learning. 

I do have one question.

Are rabbits bothered by capsaicin? I have had rabbits in the past that would devour hot peppers like candy.

[MarkbVet]

14 minutes ago, amh said:

The ramble is greatly appreciated and needed for learning. 

I do have one question.

Are rabbits bothered by capsaicin? I have had rabbits in the past that would devour hot peppers like candy.

If they'll eat it, that tells me that the 'heat' maybe isn't an issue for their taste buds/oral membranes/throat.  However, peppers, like many non-leafy veggies, can potentially cause GI upsets, due to the inappropriately high carbohydrate content (and less fiber) compared to grasses.  Really, they shouldn't eat any non-grassy vegetables except leafy greens-- and even those only in sparse amounts.  That big gut gets more fragile the older the rabbit gets; by the time they're 4-5 years old (and up) they are more prone to sudden bloats or diarrhea (which are life threatening).  Even too many greens at one time can sometimes set them off.  Then we have to try to save them. 

[amh]

3 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

If they'll eat it, that tells me that the 'heat' maybe isn't an issue for their taste buds/oral membranes/throat.  However, peppers, like many non-leafy veggies, can potentially cause GI upsets, due to the inappropriately high carbohydrate content (and less fiber) compared to grasses.  Really, they shouldn't eat any non-grassy vegetables except leafy greens-- and even those only in sparse amounts.  That big gut gets more fragile the older the rabbit gets; by the time they're 4-5 years old (and up) they are more prone to sudden bloats or diarrhea (which are life threatening).  Even too many greens at one time can sometimes set them off.  Then we have to try to save them. 

When I was a child, my family used rabbit manure in the garden, so the rabbits would receive treats, usually greens, but they really loved both hot and sweet peppers. Most of what I have read stated that people shouldn't give rabbits hot peppers because it was "mean" and not for the digestive reasons you described. My personal experience was that it was not causing the rabbits distress and the hot peppers were actually preferred. The rabbits were always happy and healthy, so I didn't think anything of it.

This Thread is getting very educational, thank you.

[MarkbVet]

37 minutes ago, amh said:

When I was a child, my family used rabbit manure in the garden, so the rabbits would receive treats, usually greens, but they really loved both hot and sweet peppers. Most of what I have read stated that people shouldn't give rabbits hot peppers because it was "mean" and not for the digestive reasons you described. My personal experience was that it was not causing the rabbits distress and the hot peppers were actually preferred. The rabbits were always happy and healthy, so I didn't think anything of it.

This Thread is getting very educational, thank you.

no problem!

[Chester B]

Another old fashioned deterrent to deer I just remembered is that they hate Irish spring soap.  You can hang it or used it around the yard.

[Swolte]

43 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Another old fashioned deterrent to deer I just remembered is that they hate Irish spring soap.  You can hang it or used it around the yard.

Hmm, thanks, I know someone who spreads sticks with dog poo on it across the yard (no kidding). I'll suggest the spring soap to him.

[Matt N- Dallas]

I live in San Marcos, TX where the deer population is dense.  I have 15-20 on my property daily.  Outside of the fenced backyard- I install 6’ fence cages around every plant that I do not want destroyed.  The deer will eat plants that are on the deer resistant list.  The only plant I’ve found they won’t eat is oleander.  6’ cages have to be anchored or the bucks just lift them off.  I get more deer damage from the bucks raking their antlers on plants and trees than I do from what they eat.  They destroy cacti, tree trunks, branches and agave.  In the summer they will eat agave & cacti during dry spells.  

[amh]

On 3/4/2022 at 11:58 AM, Swolte said:

Hmm, thanks, I know someone who spreads sticks with dog poo on it across the yard (no kidding). I'll suggest the spring soap to him.

The dirty sticks only deter people.

If you have an actual deer problem, fencing is the only real fix.

Of course, with the overpopulation, diseases will eventually appear.

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by amh

[D Palm]

Marigolds are a great deer/rabbit deterrent.